Boards›Gameplay

"Flat armor pen is too good against tanks because of its application after %armor pen"

HateDaddy··19 votes·1,693 views

I want you to think about this for a second, like, think really hard about it.

If you're a tank, ok, and you have lots of armor, what is ignoring (or shredding in the case of item 3071) most of your armor? Is it that 20-30 flat pen, that is going to ignore 20-30 flat armor no matter what or that 45% bonus armor? Or that 30% shred? It is not the flat armor pen that is making armor significantly weaker.

If ADCs are building heavy armor pen, they aren't going to have enough DPS to take you down unless it's Jhin or MF ulting, two outlier cases and one that everyone acknowledges has even overtuned for awhile. If it's an assassin, they literally never bother focusing down a heavy armor tank and if they did, they still likely wouldn't kill you. Not to mention if an assassin elected to try and burst a tank down instead of the tanks carries, 'well, I laugh at that dumb assassin.

Last but not least from one guy who plays tanks to others: damage should ultimately scale better over durability. Tanks should not have %damage reduction items because A) that's hilariously stupid. B) tanks would be the last class on the face of the earth to use it in a balanced state, it'd literally get abused by everything else and C) damage ultimately has far more gameplay than durability does. Damage requires focus, using spells and proper positioning. Tanking involves being a better stat stick and ultimately that stat stick needs to lose or you invalidate 3/5ths of the major classes in this game (ADCs, Mages and assassins).

So please, again, I urge you to see reason. Tanks. Are. Fine.

Now rylais on the other hand...........[slayer-jinx-unamused]

40 Comments

WoonStruck9 votes

Damage should definitely outscale durability.

However, its pretty absurd this season compared to others. Its not even damage outscaling it so much as damage baselines being so much higher now as a result of keystones (and generally more % damage increases), making tanky stats fall off, relative to the amount of incoming damage, much, much faster than people are used to. Especially because those damage keystones themselves scale...lol.

The penetration vs tanks, as far as ADCs go, wouldn't be an issue if Fervor didn't exist. Most of the time I check damage from pen builds, an extremely large portion of ADC damage comes from Fervor, barring Jhin, who honestly does better with Essence Reaver, rather than more pen past laning phase.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

Damage should definitely outscale durability.

However, its pretty absurd this season compared to others. Its not even damage outscaling it so much as damage baselines being so much higher now as a result of keystones (and generally more % damage increases), making tanky stats fall off, relative to the amount of incoming damage, much, much faster than people are used to. Especially because those damage keystones themselves scale...lol.

The penetration vs tanks, as far as ADCs go, wouldn't be an issue if Fervor didn't exist. Most of the time I check damage from pen builds, an extremely large portion of ADC damage comes from Fervor, barring Jhin, who honestly does better with Essence Reaver, rather than more pen past laning phase.

The only time tanks have ever not fallen off was season 2, and that wasn't fun for anyone but the tank players. Tanks are supposed to fall off, because if their durability scaled from midgame skirmishes to tanking a full five people that'd be stupid.

LankPants3 votes

and that wasn't fun for anyone but the tank players.

I'm guessing that's why almost everyone who played in S2 says it's the funnest season? Must be because the majority of players who played in S2 hated the game. That seems like a solid argument. I'd say I enjoyed something I hated too.

Critmaster Garen9 votes

first of all, youre ignoring the fact that flat armor pen is frontloaded and cleaver takes time to shred armor in a fight.

but you can actually stack up to 70 flat armor pen with a build such as this

item 3142 item 3156 item 3147 item 3071 item 3033 , since you get more flat armor pen from runes and masteries.

the point of the complaints isnt that those 30 to 50 on average flat armor pen are too much against tanks, but that theyre too much in combination with the large amount of armor that gets shredded by % armor pen items.

yes, if you have 200 armor, cleaver makes you lose a whooping 70 armor leaving you with 130. and if the enemy has flat armor pen on top of that, those 200 armor turn as far as down to 60. if the enemy has a last whisper item (unlikely but still possible) in addition to that it becomes even less.

you want to tell me that thats not ridiculous?

im very much for the idea that the large armor pen items shouldnt stack, and assassins and adc should be forced to decide if they want % pen with a little bit flat pen, or focus entirely on flat pen.

item 3142 item 3071 item 3035 items should have unique passives with the same name to just put a cap on how crazy armor pen stacking can get.

in extreme cases armor pen builds should look either like this

item 3071 + item 3156 + runes/masteries item 3035 + item 3156 + item 3147 + runes/masteries

or like this

item 3142 + item 3156 + item 3147 + runes/masteries (usual assassin build against squishies)

anything more is overkill.

Puttyblo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PUkvroYM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-01T12:32:56.398+0000)

first of all, youre ignoring the fact that flat armor pen is frontloaded and cleaver takes time to shred armor in a fight.

but you can actually stack up to 70 flat armor pen with a build such as this

item 3142 item 3156 item 3147 item 3071 item 3033 , since you get more flat armor pen from runes and masteries.

the point of the complaints isnt that those 30 to 50 on average flat armor pen are too much against tanks, but that theyre too much in combination with the large amount of armor that gets shredded by % armor pen items.

yes, if you have 200 armor, cleaver makes you lose a whooping 70 armor leaving you with 130. and if the enemy has flat armor pen on top of that, those 200 armor turn as far as down to 60. if the enemy has a last whisper item (unlikely but still possible) in addition to that it becomes even less.

you want to tell me that thats not ridiculous?

im very much for the idea that the large armor pen items shouldnt stack, and assassins and adc should be forced to decide if they want % pen with a little bit flat pen, or focus entirely on flat pen.

item 3142 item 3071 item 3035 items should have unique passives with the same name to just put a cap on how crazy armor pen stacking can get.

in extreme cases armor pen builds should look either like this

item 3071 + item 3156 + runes/masteries item 3035 + item 3156 + item 3147 + runes/masteries

or like this

item 3142 + item 3156 + item 3147 + runes/masteries (usual assassin build against squishies)

anything more is overkill.

As a person whose made it to diamond on two different accounts playing ADC.

I wanna see you get to diamond using that build. I guarantee you fucking won't.

Yeah, you did "all dat armor pen." Now what? You're sitting at like 200--250 ad. You'll still only be doing 100-150 damage with your auto to a champion with 3000+ life. You're not 1v1ing adcs either because you don't crit. 90% of your stats are completely wasted to still not do much vs tanks.

In conclusion, that build is only good for the first 20 minutes of the game, and then it falls off even harder than tanks because it's the only build in the game that tanks actually outscale LOL.

LankPants2 votes

Yeah, you did "all dat armor pen." Now what? You're sitting at like 200--250 ad. You'll still only be doing 100-150 damage with your auto to a champion with 3000+ life. You're not 1v1ing adcs either because you don't crit. 90% of your stats are completely wasted to still not do much vs tanks.

Might want to check your math there buddy, those items give 290 AD before you consider anything else. If you build them you can expect 400 AD minimum, pretty much double what you were suggesting.

Also here is CptJack, literally building that build, more or less to the item.

Puttyblo1 votes

{quoted}

Might want to check your math there buddy, those items give 290 AD before you consider anything else. If you build them you can expect 400 AD minimum, pretty much double what you were suggesting.

Also here is CptJack, literally building that build, more or less to the item.

I had a whole rage post typed out, but I just got an additional 6k pay check for a commission. So, I'm just going to be frank now.

1 Do you check the enemy team, or the ally team before sending me X and going "SEE IT WORKED IN THIS ONE SPECIFIC SCENARIO, SO IT MUST BE THE EXACT BUILD I BUILD EVERY GAME!" ?

I can look at this match and tell you that 1. There's no tanks. Only 1 CC. I've said it multiple times, several other people have said it multiple times. THIS IS THE EXACT SITUATION IN WHICH THIS BUILD IS GOOD.

2 Try doing this build into two- three tanks and a blue Ezreal and see what happens. On top of that, Jhin blatantly got carried out of his lane by Graves. I can tell just by looking at the KDA. On top of that, that Twitch is frankly just trash. So what does that Jhin do? He builds the snowball build into 5 squishy champions. That is literally what it was designed for.

3 You're stuck in gold 3 barely even keeping it even, and you're calling Hashinshin trash? You probably don't even know why the upper elo even calls him trash, let alone why he tilts out the ass. You additionally don't even know the circumstances in which the events that tilt Hashinshin are allowed to occur, but you're going to go on to say "durrr it's so easy! Look at this one specific top laner who has a notorious set of events placed on him that I'm going to use s a reference for all of top lane!" I feel like I'm watching some high school drop out dumbass working at Mcdonalds try to talk shit on someone who owns their own fucking restaurant.

This is one of the many reasons none of the pros even come to the boards. 99% of you don't even know what you're talking about, but go on to assume you know shit when you really don't.

HateDaddy8 votes

Yknow I really hate jinx, I wish I could have an annoyed Nasus sticker or an annoyed Jax sticker where like one of his 6 eyes is randomly bugging out and like actively seizing

Strike the Ping3 votes

http://orig15.deviantart.net/ae0a/f/2016/245/1/7/jax_by_stockpiletom-dag74tp.gif

Unfortunately the colors decided to bug out too.

Sona x Rubick6 votes

Friend, i never said that it was "too good", if you read the thread i made i just pointed out that it wasn't "useless" . In one your thread you said "for the X time flat armor pen is useless against tanks" and then said "There's literally no discussion or debate here. It's simply not good, the armor pen values don't stack up nearly as quickly as a tank can stack up armor values."

now you pull out an other argument, saying that adc won't have enough DPS if they build only armor pene. and i say bullshit

as a jhin main, the armor pene build doesn't give a fuck about crit/attack speed, build item 3147 item 3142 item 3031 item 3036 item 3046 (and a last item, boots aren't needed with jhin) and you 100/0 someone just with the ulti, in teamfight? if the front lane is at 60% hp press R and watch their life dropping quick with your ulti dealing up to 2500 damage. there ain't crit or attack speed needed.

you thought that jhin and mf were the only one? Lucian laughs at you, building item 3071 item 3142 item 3036 item 3147 item 3031 press R and kills anyone with his 4000 damage ulti that deals almost pure damage (overstatement but ignores a lot of armor) can even manage to burst a tank if he does his full combo+ duskblade passive.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

before ppl hop on this bandwagon I would like to mention that season 2 which this season feels modelled after (in my opionion) did not have said penetration reversals and thus can be watched on youtube to make your own personal assessment of what this meta would look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thPgyM5oLZE&list=PL6rqw5BcKoLuOCFqtuDJKaI-cM_osvv0O

Pierce The Veal4 votes

{quoted}

before ppl hop on this bandwagon I would like to mention that season 2 which this season feels modelled after (in my opionion) did not have said penetration reversals and thus can be watched on youtube to make your own personal assessment of what this meta would look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thPgyM5oLZE&list=PL6rqw5BcKoLuOCFqtuDJKaI-cM_osvv0O

In season 2 we had unkillable bruisers, and super fast adcs. Assassins were dark horses. Twas a fun year.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

before ppl hop on this bandwagon I would like to mention that season 2 which this season feels modelled after (in my opionion) did not have said penetration reversals and thus can be watched on youtube to make your own personal assessment of what this meta would look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thPgyM5oLZE&list=PL6rqw5BcKoLuOCFqtuDJKaI-cM_osvv0O

didnt season 2 also have 99 armor on randuins and 120 armor on frozen heart, and the old (more effective) thornmail, while the only % armor pen item was last whisper and % penetration didnt stack favourably with flat penetration? did it have as many flat penetration items as there are now?

didnt it have also atmas and 1350 health warmogs, and 700 health frozen mallet?

the game will not return to season 2 just because we limit the stackable armor pen in this game. it will just prevent extreme case scenarios of people running full armor pen builds and making the stat worthless.

you can jump into a game right now, and there is a good chance that an ad carry or assassin exists in that game who is not stacking 5 armor pen items and is still able to fight tanks and bruisers. the champions wont be worthless because theyre not able to deal almost true damage to tanks and fighters and true damage to other squishies.

the thing is, riot nerfed a lot of armor items at the start of the season, to compensate for the last whisper changes.

but this didnt factor in adc actually buying cleaver and stacking it with every other armor pen item, nor riot introducing another flat armor pen item in the middle of the season AND buffing last whisper items armor pen.

we need to dial it back a little.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

whatever the cause, shit was tanky in season 2. One didn't go into a teamfight expecting anyone to die half the time in high level play. It could get really boring

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

whatever the cause, shit was tanky in season 2. One didn't go into a teamfight expecting anyone to die half the time in high level play. It could get really boring

its pretty important what the cause was in regards to the topic. otherwise there would be no reason to bring season 2 up as an example.

and im pretty sure it wasnt the fact that you couldnt deal almost true damage to tanks by stacking 5 armor pen items. there are actually champions like talon who have their highest win % build with every single source of armor pen in the game.

i just think there should be a limit to whats allowed.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

back then 5 armor pen items wasn't worth building partly because the penetration was reversed

But the consequence of switching to what we have now was tanks getting weaker and assassins getting stronger

But then what happens if we switch back... they may have to buff armor pen anyways which would hurt everyone else or they'd have to do something to keep tanks under control most likely.

I bring this up though because a bigger problem than the armor pen one existed before the armor pen was a thing.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

back then 5 armor pen items wasn't worth building partly because the penetration was reversed

But the consequence of switching to what we have now was tanks getting weaker and assassins getting stronger

But then what happens if we switch back... they may have to buff armor pen anyways which would hurt everyone else or they'd have to do something to keep tanks under control most likely.

I bring this up though because a bigger problem than the armor pen one existed before the armor pen was a thing.

no it wouldnt be necessary to buff armor pen for them. are you trying to tell me adc wouldnt be functional without the heavy armor pen/korean build now that armor on items is lower than in previous seasons?

then what have they done up until this season to be in every single team at least once?

they dont need to be able to stack excessive amounts of armor pen to be relevant. some of them are just doing it right now because its broken, and they powerspike much earlier than they usually would.

the reason why MissFortune Jhin are going into heavy armor pen builds isnt because they wouldnt be functional with their standart crit itemization, but because they get cheese 1 shots with item 3147 on their opponents.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

pro teams have occasionally shown that they could function without an adc so who knows.

adcs were alright back then too but ultimately most of them felt terrible to play except the holy trinity and one of those 3 is now played mostly in jungle I think.. So what do you think will happen after MF and Jhin get nerfed out of the meta by penetration nerfs that make tanky champs strong enough that, at best, they ONLY have to worry about maybe 1 adc or something. You really think these 2 are going to thrive in a meta where even squishies are unkillable?

LankPants2 votes

pro teams have occasionally shown that they could function without an adc so who knows.

I've actually mentioned this before, but the last 4 times a team has played without an ADC they have lost the game. The last time a team attempted to play without an ADC was early season 4. ADCs are 100% core to every single team, no exceptions.

The last last time a team played without a mage, tank, bruiser or and assassin was probably a few days or even hours ago. No other role is integral to every team in the same way as ADCs.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PUkvroYM,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-09-01T12:52:16.781+0000)

didnt season 2 also have 99 armor on randuins and 120 armor on frozen heart, and the old (more effective) thornmail, while the only % armor pen item was last whisper and % penetration didnt stack favourably with flat penetration? did it have as many flat penetration items as there are now?

didnt it have also atmas and 1350 health warmogs, and 700 health frozen mallet?

the game will not return to season 2 just because we limit the stackable armor pen in this game. it will just prevent extreme case scenarios of people running full armor pen builds and making the stat worthless.

you can jump into a game right now, and there is a good chance that an ad carry or assassin exists in that game who is not stacking 5 armor pen items and is still able to fight tanks and bruisers. the champions wont be worthless because theyre not able to deal almost true damage to tanks and fighters and true damage to other squishies.

the thing is, riot nerfed a lot of armor items at the start of the season, to compensate for the last whisper changes.

but this didnt factor in adc actually buying cleaver and stacking it with every other armor pen item, nor riot introducing another flat armor pen item in the middle of the season AND buffing last whisper items armor pen.

we need to dial it back a little.

The issue with stacking flat pen still isn't it being good against tanks, because stacking flat pen is much worse against tanks than stacking AD/Crit/AS with a last whisper item.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

didnt season 2 also have 99 armor on randuins and 120 armor on frozen heart, and the old (more effective) thornmail, while the only % armor pen item was last whisper and % penetration didnt stack favourably with flat penetration? did it have as many flat penetration items as there are now?

No, it did not. At least not for those Armor values.

In S2:

  • Frozen Heart was 99 Armor, 20% AS slow, at ton of mana (500) and 20% CdR to burn that mana with. As a neat package, it came for 2775 gold.
  • Randuin's cost 3075 gold. For that price, it gave 75 Armor, 350 HP, 5% CdR, 25 Hp5 and had the active that slowed MS and AS by 35% for 1 + 0.5% (Armor + MR) seconds. Also, it retained Warden's Mails passive that gave a 20% chance to slow MS and AS by 35% for 3 seconds.
  • Thornmail cost 2000 gold and already gave 100 Armor. It returned 30% of pre-mitigation damage as magic damage and was complained about by ignorant people for the same reasons it was complained about in S3, S4, S5 and S6. Thornmail was always meant as a tool to negate the effect of Lifesteal, after all...

Last Whisper penetrated 40% of all Armor, but did not suffer from the same problem post-S2 Last Whisper suffered. The reason for that is that (potentially) 100 AD Bloodthirster and 80 AD/25% Crit Chance Infinity Edge were bigger damage boosts against squishies than LW. Also, AD casters were not supported in the itemization, penetration-wise - Black Cleaver did only exist as a flat Armor debuff (and was never build), while Youmuu's was terrible compared to all other AD items. The AD casters that were released during S2 were either played as AD bruisers (with Triforce and Atma's) or stacked Bloodthirsters. I distinctly remember one of Riven's most common builds to be Boots, Last Whisper and 4 Bloodthirsters. Save for Youmuu's (which, again, was terrible), no AD/CdR items existed. Also, virtually no manaless CdR items existed.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Oh so it's perfectly fine for assassins & marksmen to instakill tanks because they're supposed to deal damage; but it's not alright for tanks to survive focus fire despite that being their primary function. Double standards much?

Miraweave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PUkvroYM,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-09-01T13:56:17.869+0000)

Oh so it's perfectly fine for assassins & marksmen to instakill tanks because they're supposed to deal damage; but it's not alright for tanks to survive focus fire despite that being their primary function. Double standards much?

They don't "instakill" tanks.

Yeah, if you dive into 5 people alone as a tank lategame, you're going to die. That's exactly what should happen.

With the exception of a few specific champions, killing a fully built tank solo takes at least 5 full seconds.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Tanks are often dying before they can finish casting a full rotation in small scrimmages, that is a few people. That's a problem and you're just as willfully ignorant as he is. Have you actually tried playing from behind as a tank? Most are as item reliant as marksmen for their durability.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PUkvroYM,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-09-01T14:27:34.854+0000)

Tanks are often dying before they can finish casting a full rotation in small scrimmages, that is a few people. That's a problem and you're just as willfully ignorant as he is. Have you actually tried playing from behind as a tank? Most are as item reliant as marksmen for their durability.

I haven't ever seen that happen unless the tank was fairly behind. Yes, they're item reliant, and they're totally fine when they have their items. Do you really expect them to be able to tank without their required items?

I do play tanks, and the only time I've felt I wasn't durable enough was when I was behind or dealing with fed enemy champions, which is exactly how it should be.

And you can call HateDaddy "willfully ignorant" as much as you want: he's a diamond player who's been playing tanks for four seasons and knows what he's talking about much better than you do.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Do you expect a tank to survive more than 5 seconds without items, when they can't catch up? Most tanks are slow to farm, and when they get killed first in teamfights, often denies them getting assists; putting them farther behind. Tanks snowballing is negative, unless they're overbearing they'll be weaker now than ever before; which is a huge design problem, but it's also been an issue since season 1. It's why xinzhao & irelia came about and were so abusive in their prime.

A single game as leona in the past few months? That's it? No wonder you don't think tanks should be more durable. Which is ironic considering we both agree the phantom dancer shouldn't have damage reduction.

I frankly don't care if he's a challenger rank; his argument is poorly thought out, and he definitely didn't check any of the math on how the mechanics work. I've been here since season 1, but I never played rank because I don't have to prove myself to others. I'm here for fun, not for showing off how little my life means.

LankPants3 votes

And you can call HateDaddy "willfully ignorant" as much as you want: he's a diamond player who's been playing tanks for four seasons and knows what he's talking about much better than you do.

I'd like to point out that Hashinshin is master.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDkRGsIeL4

Watch this and tell me that Hashinshin has a clear understanding of the game. It is possible for players to get to high ranks mostly off of mechanics, you can use rank to support an argument but not as an argument in and of itself.

Puttyblo1 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to point out that Hashinshin is master.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDkRGsIeL4

Watch this and tell me that Hashinshin has a clear understanding of the game. It is possible for players to get to high ranks mostly off of mechanics, you can use rank to support an argument but not as an argument in and of itself.

If he didn't understand the game, he wouldn't get there.

This isn't prior seasons where if you win lane you win game. That general way of thinking is pretty out dated. It's why I keep passing these 1900 game plat 2 players.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

There's different kinds of understanding; his point is that this hashinshin guy understands reaction times beat game knowledge, but doesn't actually know most of the game knowledge.

Puttyblo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PUkvroYM,comment-id=000a000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-01T15:20:12.412+0000)

There's different kinds of understanding; his point is that this hashinshin guy understands reaction times beat game knowledge, but doesn't actually know most of the game knowledge.

Reaction times have absolutely nothing to do with why Hashinshin hits challenger.

It's actually game knowledge that allows Hashinshin to win. And you guys don't even notice it. That's the hilarious part.

His 2 main champs are: Jax Darius .

He uses his understanding of these two champions to make key trades against other top laners and then eventually create enough pressure to ultimately face roll the game. It actually has nothing to do with mechanics. there are no mechanics really to be had with these champions. Does he know super extreme macro knowledge? No. Not many do, not even the not really actually better Koreans. There's a lot to this game that still hasn't been discovered.

The reality is, if Hashinshin knew a tad bit more about minion wave management and dealt with being 100% camp bait a tad bit better he'd be next to unbeatable. Even LS knows that.

Jalkan2 votes

I agree, tanks take no skill.

HateDaddy10 votes

Mechanical skill? Not as much no but there is a requirement to understand the team game to be relevant on tanks. Otherwise, you don't do shit and just die for no reason, which I suspect most tanks who complain about dying too fast

DunkinNoobs2 votes

You're a noble man HateDaddy; a noble man on a hopeless quest.

nice table2 votes

"tanks are fine cause i like to play carries and fuck tanks" "what? my most played tank is at 28% win ratio? i mean im doing totally fine playing tanks" HateDaddy - 2016

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Agree, tanks are generally fine.

Despite this, I still think that League could use a proper tank keystone. Proper keystone meaning here some kind of effect that changes how you'd ultimately play the champion. For example, Stormraider's Surge and Thunderlord's Decree both emphasize a more hit&run based playstyle.

For instance, I recently thought that a keystone that gave (scaling number) of damage reduction for (potentially scaling number) seconds when reaching a certain HP threshould (example 25%), at the cost of decreasing your overall damage output HEAVILY for that period of reduced damage.

Sylvant1 votes

well said...how hard is for ppl to understand that if you stack tons of armor pen, you gimping all other stats and at the end you only become good at once thing- negate high amounts of armor. There are far more important matters like taking a squishy instead

Bears Dont Care1 votes

I thought flat pen was applied first then the multiplicative armor shred after.

barbarianskull1 votes

I get your point but.. Let's say a tank has 300 armour. You shred 30 percent of that with bc then you ignore 45 percent with last wisperer. That's 75% of your armour gone. Which brings you to 75 armour I believe. Now you should have 48 flat armour pen with ghost blade, dusk blade, and maw, plus masteries. Bringing your 300 armour tank to 27. Very tanky.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Honestly I don't think flat pen is the problem. Nasus is and he should be nerfed accordingly.

Ahristocats1 votes

of course, what could possibly be wrong with a non-gap closer bruiser against a ranged meta cancer Kennen Lissandra Gnar Jayce (is broken now)

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