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Juggernaut isn't the (only) problem. It's not why tanks struggle in jungle.

Pyro··22 votes·2,576 views

There's that thread complaining about Juggernaut having low lategame value and being weaker than other enchantments. To quickly dissolve it:

  • YES, Juggernaut doesn't make you clear faster like the other enchantments do However, by the time you're getting it:
  • your base spell damage along with Jungler passive from upgraded Machete and extra help from Blasting Smite should be enough to clear jungle, even if slowly
  • at that point you, as a tank, are supposed to countergank, towerdive and contest dragons, not farm the jungle.
  • NO, Juggernaut is not that much weaker lategame than the other upgrades
  • You can theoretically replace Magus with Morellonomicon for extra mana regen and Grievous Wounds
  • You can theoretically replace Warrior with a Black Cleaver for extra HP and stacking % armor reduction
  • You cannot replace Juggernaut with a single, better item that would grant all its effects

However, it is true that raw gold efficiency of Juggernaut is much lower than that of other enchantments.

Maybe the enchantments aren't in a perfect spot, but the problem with tanks doesn't lie just in Juggernaut itself. Juggernaut gives you a broad choice in boots (item 3047, item 3117, even item 3020) now that you don't have to take those mandatory item 3111. In terms of lategame identity, Tenacity makes this item stand out from the "pure stats" Magus and Warrior, comparable only to Devourer. And - did you know? - it stacks with item 2138 Elixir of Iron. It's not wasted.

On to the point, though. Why do tanks feel underwhelming in the new jungle? (Their winrates aren't that bad, anyway...)

#World of Tanks

Preseason brought three changes that seemingly help tanks:

item 1039 Machete passive doesn't favour Attack Speed-oriented champions anymore

However:

  • It still doesn't fix the tank vs DPS problem as it doesn't scale with anything tanks have
  • Magic penetration marks don't speed up your clear in any way - AS marks still do
  • AS/AD runes are still very efficient for junglers, and tanks can't utilize them that well

summoner 11 Smiting Gromp gives you a thorns effect similar to Quill Coat

However:

  • The damage is flat per target, so the effect is, paradoxally, weakest on Gromp itself (one enemy) and strongest on Razorbeaks (four targets)
  • Unlike Gift of the Heavy Hands, which scales with AS, the Gromp buff doesn't scale with any stat that would characterize tanks (again, no MR on monsters to gain value from magic/hybrid penetration marks)

item 1006 Regeneration from items scales with champion's base regen, and tanks have higher base regen

However:

  • It doesn't really kick in until the lategame
  • Even then, it's on par with current values or straight out less regen than before
  • Most champions have about 10 regen at level 3 and 20 at level 16, so Spirit Visage and Banshee's Veil got heavily nerfed in the regen department (item 3065 is down from 20 to +100% base, item 3102 is down from 45 to +100% base)
  • All regen items are bundled with health. Regen scales with resistances, not health. (Resists increase effective value of the regenerated health)

These are the problems that need addressing in the first place. The discrepancy between the Krug buff, which mitigates tons of damage and scales with AS, and the Gromp buff, which is a DoT bonus that doesn't scale with anything, is just too damn high.

#Possible Solution

About the early clear on tanks, possible fixes (not all necessary, just some ideas):

  • Give monsters about 5 MR so that magic penetration from runes affects jungle clear
  • Make the regen from Machete stack in longer fights
    • Example passive: restores 1 health per second, stacks up to 12 times, lasts 3 seconds after leaving combat
  • Buff Bladed Armor to work on maximum health, not current
  • Make the Wolf bonus from Smite actually do something useful when used at your own side
  • If we want "AS start" to be Krugs and "tank start" to be Gromp, this could be the "AP start"
  • Have the damage on the Gromp passive scale with champion's maximum Health, or armor, or anything that differentiates tanks from speedclearers

About making all the enchantments feel strong and not lacking in a 6 item build:

  • Add Crystalline Bracer to the Juggernaut recipe (replacing the loose Ruby Crystal), give Juggernaut 100% base regen and bring back +25% total HP (lowering base HP to 400)
  • Add Forbidden Idol to the Magus recipe, give Magus 50% mana regen
  • Give Warrior 20-25 armor penetration (up from 10). Nerf AD to 40 (down from 45).
  • Don't nerf Devourer down to 25 onhit damage like it's on PBE, 30 or 35 is okay. It's Warwick that's broken, not the item. Udyr and Trundle are fine, and most AS/AD champions like Nocturne and Xin Zhao lean towards Warrior on patch 4.20, so this definitely isn't the Black Cleaver of season 5.

item 3725 Juggernaut - recipe: item 3067 + item 3801 +400 health, +25% total health, +100% base health regeneration, +10% CDR, Tenacity

item 3708 Magus - recipe: item 3108 + item 3114 +80 AP, +50% base mana regen, +20% CDR

item 3714 Warrior - recipe: item 3134 +40 AD, +10% CDR, +25 armor penetration

Also, if we want tanks to have better itemization, we could do some little things like having Warden's Mail build out of Chain Vest (also in that post: SV and Banshee became worse for tanks, Iceborn Gauntlet could use more armor in its build).

20 Comments

Cale01713 votes

I'm sorry, but no. Sure it opens up a lot of tactical advantages, but the cost per stat of the Juggernaut enchant is loads higher than the other items.

Magus gives 80 AP for 1500 gold. A Needlessly Large Rod, which also gives 80 AP, is 1600 gold. You're practically saving gold. Mage jungles don't even have to farm their item up anymore, which was the only thing that kept that random Fiddlesticks or Diana jungle from being able to walk out at level 5 with more AP than anyone else on the map.

The Brutalizer in a Warrior enchant is 1337. Meaning that to make the jump from 10% CDR, 10 Armor Pen, and 25 AD to 10% CDR, 10 Armor Pen, and 45 AD in only 163 more gold. Getting 20 AD would cost 720 gold any other way, but here it's costing less than half that. This also means that in a little more than the same amount of time it would take a J4 or a Vi to build a Spirit of the Elder Lizard and then a Brutalizer during season 4, they can get the Warrior and then a Brutalizer again giving them a total of 65 AD, 20 Armor Pen, and 20% CDR.

Devourer is 900 gold for two Daggers, so there's a 600 gold gap between the 30% to the 50% AS of the full Devourer, which seems alright... until you factor in the magic on hit and the fact that it can scale endlessly. The longer you have a Devourer, the more insanely cost efficient it gets. And that's not even counting for the stupid amount of synergy between Devourer and Skirmisher's Saber, which pretty much anyone taking Devourer will build first.

Meanwhile Juggernaut comes from a Kindlegem and a Ruby Crystal. 850 gold and 400 gold, so 1250, and then a 250 gap to finish it into Juggernaut. So while yes, you're essentially saving 150 gold where you'd otherwise need another Ruby Crystal to get to at least 500 health, you're still technically losing out. You're paying for 5/8ths of a Ruby Crystal but only getting half of what HP it gives you... meaning that you'd get more health from just buying three Ruby Crystals, and it'd cost less. That's just plain inefficient. You're not getting your money's worth in HP, one of the only two stats it gives, and to be quite honest the Tenacity isn't worth it either. I'm perfectly fine with building Merc Treads after, but for the love of god give me some early resistances. I shouldn't still feel squishy after finishing what is supposed to be a tank item but with the Juggernaut you still do.

Juggernaut looks good, but it's ineffecient, doesn't give stats in NEARLY the directly helpful ways that the other three, and makes it so that a tanky jungler has no way to defend themselves because they're investing money in health that won't help them when any jungler dealing any amount of damage is going to be able to mow through it all the same. Right now Juggernaut isn't giving as much to tanks as the other enchantments are to their respective roles.

It might not be the only problem, but it's a large part of the problem. Tanky junglers have an unfair disadvantage in comparison to more damage oriented roles right now.

Pyro2 votes

I'm sorry, but no. Sure it opens up a lot of tactical advantages, but the cost per stat of the Juggernaut enchant is loads higher than the other items.

I've never said Juggernaut is as cost efficient as the other upgrades. The post I was referring to complained about other things as well, not raw gold efficiency.

You're still right, though.

Cale0171 votes

That bit alone should be enough to show that it's a MASSIVE part of why tank junglers are having a harder time than ever.

Saianna1 votes

What's "skrimisher's saber" ?

@_@

test account1 votes

One of the many trap upgrades for machete, that newbies might take instead of ranger's.

Cale0171 votes

"Newbies" here referring to anyone who believes building it on Warwick and pressing R is an indication of skill.

test account1 votes

I'm pretty sure warwick is the only champion who can take something other than ranger's and not be punished for it.

LupusNox4 votes

The title was kind of misleading, the reason that tanks have such a hard time atm is that

A. Jungle creeps are harder now (more health/damage) B. Tank stats stayed the same (aka, still no damage unless your amumu) C. Gromp buff doesn't scale except with level (39 + 3 per level) D. Jungle upgrades really have nothing to do with non-smite clear speeds E. Rangers is getting nerfed, so tanks are going to have an even harder time after the next patch

Solution? Put Quill coat back into the game and have it in the build path for juggernaut instead of kindlegem. Remove 10% CDR from juggernaut, add 30 armor and quill coat passive. Quill coat now builds from cloth armor and ruby crystal plus 150 gold for 850g.

Pyro1 votes

Jungle creeps are harder now (more health/damage)

That doesn't contribute to tanks having harder time clearing than other types of champions.

Gromp buff doesn't scale except with level (39 + 3 per level)

I've mentioned Gromp vs Krugs discrepancy.

BlackMambo002 votes

Jungle creeps are harder now (more health/damage)

That doesn't contribute to tanks having harder time clearing than other types of champions.

Yes it does. If tanks are not meant to deal damage but soak damage, than having to fight for longer in each camp and recall more because you have to eat more damage to clear them. Other champions have damage base jungle styles and just need to do more damage faster, which they can without huge hits to their builds.

LankPants2 votes

I play sej, why does everyone say it doesn't make you clear faster :P

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I play sej, why does everyone say it doesn't make you clear faster :P

I was able to clear both the blue & red camps as Sejuani in one go. But now? Sigh...

L7xLoTek1 votes

Pretty sure with a pull you can go Gromp->Blue->Wolves->Red still. Not sure about going at it without a pull, though.

LankPants1 votes

you can still full clear the jungle without a leash with the right runes/masteries

Budupops1 votes

Another great post. Riot better read this!

Leti the Yeti1 votes

it was too long for me to finish but what i did read seemed pretty good to me ~ 3~

Yfrappefort1 votes

Great post. +1 from a tank jungler.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

It's worth discussing. Riot has reduced the advantage of being a damage jungler, but there is still no mechanic that potentially favors tank clear over damage clear.

No lever existing implies difficult tuning process. Seems like an oversight.

Probably we will be living with weak tank clears indefinitely.

Cyarus1 votes

Monsters do linear damage over time to junglers, since they just have autoattacks. Better DPS therefore linearly reduces the damage you take from monsters over the course of a fight. I don't understand why Riot's had to go through all these crazy iterations of jungle changes over the years to try to balance DPS jungling with tank jungling when simply adding burst damage to at least some of the camps (for example, the wolf camp starts off each battle with Dogpile, a high-damage attack that involves all three wolves if they're alive) would inherently make jungler tankiness actually relevant in clears. One quick change, problem pretty much solved. The lack of burst damage on monsters is the simple, mathematical reason that tank vs DPS isn't a reasonable trade-off in jungle when it's otherwise obviously reasonable against champs.

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