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I'd rather face Leblanc, Kat, Fizz or Akali than Zed

AquariusGine··64 votes·5,796 views

Before you go on reading, yes this is a rant thread

  1. I simply CANNOT make a mana intensive mage work against Zed.

  2. Does his poke even cost energy? It does so much damage for a non-mana based poke.

  3. Yes, he's a bad teamfighter, but GOD he's just so damn overbearing in lane.

  4. I don't even have to start on how difficult it is to itemize against him. lvl 1-6, if you stay under your tower to try to last hit as a mage, chances are you will be 40 cs behind until you get a item 3070 or item 3114. And after that, you gotta start the Zhonyas rush. And if he is smart and buys a item 1033 , god I ............. I'm an average player. I'm not Faker, I can't keep up the CS !!!!! I can't buy magic pen, armguard and a mana item all at once. I'm constantly building to counter his item choices.

  5. And don't say ask for jungler's help. HE has a jungler too, and they WILL tower dive you, you poor (due to no cs), defenseless, worthless, fragile piece of mage.

Bye and have a good day. I hope you don't meet a Zed and have yours ruined like mine.

:(

Edit :

  • Look, the problem is that he pushes you to tower and you can't push back. Don't expect to get all your CS under tower. **Your minions are not going to cooperate for you to simply last hit under your tower. **

He will keep pushing and poking until there's a huge CS advantage. Even if your jungler intervenes it's a very dangerous game for low HP mages.

185 Comments

MohawkBird31 votes

I'd rather not face Leblanc. At least you have the potential to trade with Zed.

BallisticMouse6 votes

Leblanc does Q+W and you have a 0.5 window to hit her.

Zed does W+Q and you literally never have a window to hit him.

Depends how they play.

I Main Swain3 votes

leblanc can also just w e and still deal half your hp. besides, having a .5 s window to hit her is like when someone holds a penny in their hand, blinks it open for a fraction of a sec, and tells you to take the penny when they open it.

Ratbert9 votes

0.5 seconds is also enough for annie to turn around and rip lb's face off.

I Main Swain1 votes

except by the time her ult animation is done leblanc is already all the way across lane. or, if you q her, then at least she still gets damaged.

Ratbert1 votes

if you can't hit lb mid dash when she can't do anything, she can't hit you. Or you have poor reflexes.

I Main Swain1 votes

her w takes a grand total of .3 s to hit you and tele back. that's longer than the time it takes most abilities to travel

Ratbert1 votes

Sorry that I didn't make it clear, but I was still talking about annie, whose stuns need no time to move and have little cast time. Everyone else has to check if lb is walking towards you or not, unless lb's trying to hit you with her dash, in which case she's right in front of you anyways.

I Main Swain1 votes

actually, she's only right in front of you for about a 10th of a second because she can tele back instantly. even if she does a double cast, you almost always have to predict her movement to hit her.

and actually, Annie's w and ult take longer to cast than people think. with the average human's reaction time, you will get your w or ult off ~1/8-1/4 s after she tele's back. imo, she needs 1 or both of a delay before she can re-tele and/or less time to tele back.

Ratbert1 votes

if lb dashing towards you is not enough for you to predict that "hey she's going to be here" then you should practice your reflexes, because it's really enough time. Even if lb ports back, she's usually stunned too anyways.

I Main Swain1 votes

it takes her about .3 s to get to you and tele back. anybody who can react fast enough in that time to do anything more than maybe send a target ability after her is a god.

Ratbert1 votes

I dunno, it seems that the average reaction time is about 0.25 seconds. Besides, you're saying that leblanc is in a 700 ish range and poking you with w without q'ing first, as q's give ample warning.

I Main Swain1 votes

she doesn't have to q, and she can do both at basically the same time. besides, she normally procs her q with her e.

and you say that normal reaction time is .25 s as if 0.05 s is enough time to do anything...

I Main Swain1 votes

first off, her cast times are nonexistent, they're just the brief time it takes for them to hit the target, of which her e is the only one that isn't almost instant. second, she only spends a ton of mana on her combo at the beginning of the game. after that she doesn't have any significant mana problems.

and actually, reaction time would be the time it takes you to register that she is moving.

TTUPhoenix4 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather not face Leblanc. At least you have the potential to trade with Zed.

Same. The mid lane mages I tend to play (Morgana, Zyra) rely on snaring their enemies to set up for their combos. Zed has clear periods where he's vulnerable to being snared, and if I'm Zyra, he can't even hide behind minions. Leblanc's window can be so short, though, that it's really hard to lock her down.

Borbland1 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather not face Leblanc. At least you have the potential to trade with Zed.

This.

As a Lux/Vel'Koz/Zyra mid main, I always ban Zed and LeBlanc, but fear LeBlanc more.

Yes, Zed has no mana costs, has some sustain etc. But at least he doesn't remove half hp with a Q/W combo. Even if he pull a double Q + E combo early it doesn't deal that much damage, and it's possible to dodge. Against LeBlanc, you can't go in Autoattack range, because she has CC in top of her immense burst even before 6, Zed has less range on W to pull a full combo.

After 6, Zed's super annoying, and LeBlanc is super deadly. She rushes Void Staff and even if you have a Negatron Cloak she will shit on you.

Zed is 2nd most annoying for me, LeBlanc is on the top by far.

WolfBV1 votes

Zed has energy costs. .-.

junglerboy1618 votes

Why is it that AP laners never seem to know how to last hit with AAs? Seriously, you shouldn't be relying on abilities for wave clear until mid game when you start grouping up anyway.

Start flask or Cloth 5 if you need the sustain so badly (yes it is unheard of, but not taking Doran's on an AP does work). Also try getting boots and dodging his skillshot (if you really can't, then at least stand behind minions for the reduced damage).

Number one way to beat Zed that I've found is to take somebody who is able to last hit well without abilities (or with very few abilities), can avoid his harass (shield or heal, also dashes), and can bully him around. Against Zed, all you have to do is get past the mid game so that your ADC gets a Merc scimitar, you get Zhonya's, and your tanks beef up. Orianna is an excellent pick into Zed, because you can max your shield to avoid his harass and you passive allows you to last hit with comparable ease to some other mid laners. Ahri also has a very responsive AA, good sustain, and better team fighting. Kyle is good vs him because you only need E to Farm well, and can heal and go invulnerable if he all ins you. Viktor is my personal favorite against him, because he is a natural lane bully and whenever Zed tries to all-in, you just drop gravity field on you feet, stand still, and drop your burst on him. He'll get stunned and then usually your burst will 100-0 him unless he delays his damage to get a QSS. If Zed starts split pushing, force objectives and team fights ASAP, because Zed will not win a 1v5 base race no matter what. Also, if possible have your top layer pick Nasus, he can out split push Zed any day, has better team fighting, and can drastically reduce Zed's kill power with wither.

EDIT: Malzahar is also an excellent pick into Zed because you can wave clear very well and very mana efficiently with malefic visions. Additionally, if Zed all ins you just drop your void puddle at your feet and Ult him.

OJ19113 votes

{quoted}

Why is it that AP laners never seem to know how to last hit with AAs? Seriously, you shouldn't be relying on abilities for wave clear until mid game when you start grouping up anyway.

Start flask or Cloth 5 if you need the sustain so badly (yes it is unheard of, but not taking Doran's on an AP does work). Also try getting boots and dodging his skillshot (if you really can't, then at least stand behind minions for the reduced damage).

Number one way to beat Zed that I've found is to take somebody who is able to last hit well without abilities (or with very few abilities), can avoid his harass (shield or heal, also dashes), and can bully him around. Against Zed, all you have to do is get past the mid game so that your ADC gets a Merc scimitar, you get Zhonya's, and your tanks beef up. Orianna is an excellent pick into Zed, because you can max your shield to avoid his harass and you passive allows you to last hit with comparable ease to some other mid laners. Ahri also has a very responsive AA, good sustain, and better team fighting. Kyle is good vs him because you only need E to Farm well, and can heal and go invulnerable if he all ins you. Viktor is my personal favorite against him, because he is a natural lane bully and whenever Zed tries to all-in, you just drop gravity field on you feet, stand still, and drop your burst on him. He'll get stunned and then usually your burst will 100-0 him unless he delays his damage to get a QSS. If Zed starts split pushing, force objectives and team fights ASAP, because Zed will not win a 1v5 base race no matter what. Also, if possible have your top layer pick Nasus, he can out split push Zed any day, has better team fighting, and can drastically reduce Zed's kill power with wither.

I'm sorry did you just tell us to last hit with autoattacks when zed spam wave clears practically for free, often poking with the same spell/s

straight4free3 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry did you just tell us to last hit with autoattacks when zed spam wave clears practically for free, often poking with the same spell/s

Yes, it is possible to last hit under the tower with almost any champion.

No, I am not good enough to do it.

Yes, I need to practice that.

OJ1915 votes

{quoted}

Yes, it is possible to last hit under the tower with almost any champion.

No, I am not good enough to do it.

Yes, I need to practice that.

yes you can

meanwhile zed roamed and got a double kill (or you tried to follow and he ambushed and killed you and then got a double kill anyway because bot lane is always fucking blind)

EvilRabbitt1 votes

Guys, zed... Guys!!! "DOUBLE KILL" ...wonderful

Karpfador3 votes

didnt you mean "QUADRA KILL" ?

Ace Access 2 votes

or double kill and two 3 others nearly dead

junglerboy165 votes

You should never be spending more than one spell a wave really. Soften up all the creeps and then blow them all up at once with an AoE. If you don't get Blue buff regularly, Mana is a real resource that matters a lot, so spamming spells and going OOM is much worse than clearing slower with AAs. Watch pro players, they rarely try to clear waves with spells unless they have to (i.e. not using a spell would mean they miss the majority of the wave to tower). Learning to last hit with AAs as an AP mid lane is what helps you keep from permanently pushing the wave in, which makes it easier to gank Zed (slippery though he may be). In addition, pushing the wave back in on Zed is the worst thing you can do, it makes you vulnerable to ganks, and also makes it easier for him to all in you since you can't hide under tower when he dives. Furthermore, it does nothing to hinder Zed, because he can last hit under tower VERY easily. Being under you own tower is the safest option.

Another really good pick against Zed is Malzahar. Malefic visions allows you to wave clear safely and easily, for no mana cost (often refunding a lot more than you spent even). Additionally, if Zed dives you, drop your puddle under your feet where he will show up after his R finishes, and then ult him and watch him melt. Rush a RoA>Zhonya's and you're all set for the rest of the match.

LankPants1 votes

You should never be spending more than one spell a wave really. Soften up all the creeps and then blow them all up at once with an AoE.

What about when Zed spams the wave into your tower? Sure you can CS under tower with minimal mana spent but then you risk letting Zed roam. That leaves your only viable choice as pushing the wave back at him whist expending large sums of mana.

junglerboy161 votes

There is this thing called AAing a minion more than once. It pushes the wave just as hard as spamming spells on it until the mid game rolls around (when spells start clearing minions in 1 shot).

LankPants2 votes

It's still not as fast as Zed Q-E-Passive hitting the wave, and you will be shoved into tower if he does that.

BakedLotion7 votes

{quoted}

Why is it that AP laners never seem to know how to last hit with AAs? Seriously, you shouldn't be relying on abilities for wave clear until mid game when you start grouping up anyway.

Start flask or Cloth 5 if you need the sustain so badly (yes it is unheard of, but not taking Doran's on an AP does work). Also try getting boots and dodging his skillshot (if you really can't, then at least stand behind minions for the reduced damage).

Number one way to beat Zed that I've found is to take somebody who is able to last hit well without abilities (or with very few abilities), can avoid his harass (shield or heal, also dashes), and can bully him around. Against Zed, all you have to do is get past the mid game so that your ADC gets a Merc scimitar, you get Zhonya's, and your tanks beef up. Orianna is an excellent pick into Zed, because you can max your shield to avoid his harass and you passive allows you to last hit with comparable ease to some other mid laners. Ahri also has a very responsive AA, good sustain, and better team fighting. Kyle is good vs him because you only need E to Farm well, and can heal and go invulnerable if he all ins you. Viktor is my personal favorite against him, because he is a natural lane bully and whenever Zed tries to all-in, you just drop gravity field on you feet, stand still, and drop your burst on him. He'll get stunned and then usually your burst will 100-0 him unless he delays his damage to get a QSS. If Zed starts split pushing, force objectives and team fights ASAP, because Zed will not win a 1v5 base race no matter what. Also, if possible have your top layer pick Nasus, he can out split push Zed any day, has better team fighting, and can drastically reduce Zed's kill power with wither.

Meanwhile zed just autos everything once under turret, or just uses his spells to instaclear the wave while you have to sit there and try almost as hard as if you were in a teamfight just to last hit under turret.

youngjake933 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile zed just autos everything once under turret, or just uses his spells to instaclear the wave while you have to sit there and try almost as hard as if you were in a teamfight just to last hit under turret.

You act like Zed can reliably use all of his spells to waveclear and poke at the same time. If he uses spells to poke, you control the wave. If he uses spells to push you under tower then last hit under tower healthy. You'd have to be dumb as rocks to stand on top of the wave he is trying to clear so he accomplishes both with one rotation.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Thanks for providing advice and a reasonable discussion.

However, I do have to say that in my experience against Zeds (which is not necessarily extensive, but I think is a reasonable sample size) they have the ability to wave clear quickly enough that they can easily enough push you under turret or force you to use abilities to clear waves. Since most mid laners are not particularly effective farmers under turret with auto attacks you are still forced to use abilities in this case if you want to reduce damage to the turret and get last hits. Basically what the OP said in their edit.

Some of your counter picks will probably (I don't play them so I can't be sure) run into this problem, namely Ahri and Kayle (Orianna does have AP ratio autos, I never seem to have problems with Viktor versus Zed, Malzahar straight counters Zed). I would expect Ahri to be forced into using multiple abilities to save cs from the turret and I don't think Kayle clears fast enough to keep the minions out of the turret without tanking them.

I agree with your split pushing advice, but Zed doesn't split push that much if he gets ahead. In my experience he tries to lever that advantage into killing your carry as often as possible so teamfights turn into 5v4 (Zed probably used ult on the carry so he is weaker for the teamfight but he still has his AoE damage) and you can't take objectives very quickly (if that carry was an ADC, and not top lane fed Swain or something). Basically he turns a large lane advantage into you not having your best damage dealer, winning teamfights before they start.

Yes, you can counter pick a Zed and you can have strategy around him, but he is still hard to deal with if he gets even a bit ahead.

PS: I don't think Wither is as effective against Zed as you think. He only really needs one AA in a kill combo and can still zone your movement with his W (or just blink to you).

junglerboy162 votes

Kayle can last hit under tower with relative ease because of E's on-hit damage, and the AoE means it is hard to get shoved in anyway. Ahri can last hit pretty well because her AA is so responsive, but she also has low mana costs and can afford to use more spells than most mid laners vs a Zed. Wither is good against Zed in a 1v1 mostly, which is the context I meant it in (because he won't be bursting a Nasus with only 1 AA in his kill combo). In a team fight, yeah Zed will probably be able to get the kill on a squishy through Wither, but that is it's own thing.

mkman200815 votes

As an experienced zed player, it is quite easy to stop an average zed, but impossible to stop a good one. Tell your jungler to sit in the bush when you both hit 6, because most average zed's will hop right on you at 6. Also, if you see him get picked, he has essentially counter picked himself, because there are a plethora of champions that counter him. Ex: Akali , Fizz , Malzahar

Ancestor0071 votes

What if i never played them b4?

WolfBV1 votes

gud luck m8

Llanite5 votes

Akali doesnt have mana either, heck, she even heals on dmg.

9kPluzZ3 votes

Get good kid. Talon Annie Velkoz TwistedFate sh1t on zed EZ-PZ

GetBoomedOn14 votes

{quoted}

Get good kid. Talon Annie Velkoz TwistedFate sh1t on zed EZ-PZ

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/41273815

I'm not Diamond either but I'm not talking shit

Castman3 votes

{quoted}

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/41273815

I'm not Diamond either but I'm not talking shit

He had most games played as Lee Sin. Obviously he's skilled enough to tell you guys to get good.

SleepyLionCub3 votes

Id rather face a zed than a fizz. at least zed doesnt have as much mobility and long ranged cc.

CritsAProcess3 votes

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Zed not as mobile? ROFL.

Zed is quite possibly the most mobile champion in the game when his ult is up. Three shadows he can bounce around to, avoiding all your skillshots and positioning himself for either escape or to chase someone who showed up to help you.

Zed is retarded, and he needs massive, massive nerfs.

Errastas4 votes

The problem is you all want to play w/e champ you want against Zed instead of taking a champ that would give Zed a hard time.

Malix Farwin3 votes

{quoted}

The problem is you all want to play w/e champ you want against Zed instead of taking a champ that would give Zed a hard time.

we want to play mages against them, do you think it is right for one champ to completely invalidate anyone with mana mid?

Big Bang Bob2 votes

Not ANYONE.

Velkoz Karthus Lissandra

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Uhhhhh how does Vel not get crushed by Zed? You're 100% skillshot-reliant, his ult drops him BEHIND you so you can't even ult easily, and you're super squishy. Zed is one of Vel's hardest counters imo.

Big Bang Bob1 votes

After he shadows and ults, he has to walk to dodge me, or dodge by running away from me. As long as I don't E or ult him before he uses these, I can burst him down easily and barrier his ult.

All this assumes I even let him get close to me, as I can wave clear effectively from miles away, so if he shadows, I'm already moving out of range. Once his shadow disappears and is on cooldown, he has to ult to do anything about me, which will leave him a sitting duck toward my combo, which is also a disengage, which also halves softies health.

And if his shadow is anything but across the lane, he isn't getting away from my laser without summoner 4.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I mean, generally a smart Zed will ult in and save W to use as an escape, or a dodge for your ult.

Big Bang Bob1 votes

But he'll have to use some other form of mobility to get that close to me. Even if he does get in range, I just wait to use my E and instead QW him, forcing him to either dodge, or take great amounts damage from my combo. Since he won't be able to react to my Q in time with him right in front of me, he'll have to use mobility to get back on me anyway since he'll be slowed.

SleepyLionCub1 votes

{quoted}

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Zed not as mobile? ROFL.

Zed is quite possibly the most mobile champion in the game when his ult is up. Three shadows he can bounce around to, avoiding all your skillshots and positioning himself for either escape or to chase someone who showed up to help you.

Zed is retarded, and he needs massive, massive nerfs.

3 shadows? actually its 2.

He has to actually get away from his shadows for his mobility to matter.

His Skillshot "dodge" is not nearly as effective as Fizz's.

Zed is strong, but if i have to play a champion who aims skillshots. Im gonna want to go after a zed more than a Fizz.

Malix Farwin2 votes

{quoted}

3 shadows? actually its 2.

He has to actually get away from his shadows for his mobility to matter.

His Skillshot "dodge" is not nearly as effective as Fizz's.

Zed is strong, but if i have to play a champion who aims skillshots. Im gonna want to go after a zed more than a Fizz.

Fizz E requires a hefty Mana cost and if he goes in he cant really go out and he does build any CDR till much later in the game. if Zed uses he shadows to go in he can also use them to get out.

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