Can you believe ppl here are defending sion 55% 7% pick rate numbers?

Rexxiee·Feb 19, 2018·35 votes·3,314 views

Now imagine if those numbers were on a non tank champion, say yasuo...

Wonder if they would downvote and say "yasuo is fine l2p".

97 Comments

Chembaron YamadaFeb 19, 201836 votes

First things first: I am not trying to defend Sion, he is overturned and deserves some nerfs right now.

But the thing with him in contrast to Yasuo, even if he is overturned, his kit feels fair. He is an immobile tank and everything in his kit is highly telegraphed. You can dodge or CC his Q, if he uses his shield you can destroy the shield or get out of the area, you can dodge his E and R. His R even gives a global warning sound.

It gives the player the feeling that he has control over the situation and his enemy. Even if Sion is destroying you numberswise, you don't feel that his kit is unfair to deal with.

Meanwhile Yasuo: he has spammable mobility, which makes the life of skillshot reliant champs hell if Yasuo knows what he's doing. Sion is absolutely immobile, you can hit your stuff on him. Yasuo just dashes all over the place and out of the way.

Yasuo doesn't have mana, he can perma spam his skills without having to worry about that. He has a windwall that is negating many skills completely as well as ranged autos. Yes, you can walk around that, but so can he and he usually has more mobility than you to do so. He has a passive shield that negates poke from some match ups. He has his ultimate putting him out of turret range (something no other point&click dash ability does).

Not saying that Yasuo is broken or anything like that, but the thing is that many players feel that his kit is unfair. Yasuo has alot of options to chose from, he has great outplay potential and if you are facing someone who mastered him, he might feel overbearing.

Sion doesn't give you this feeling. The kit gives you the feeling of "yeah, I could have prevented that".

TL,DR: A kit like Sions is oftenly seen as fair to play against, so less people will complain, some might even defend him. Some kits (like Yasuo) give people the feeling that it's unfair to face, hence why they will complain, even if the champion is not strong statistically.

Sire HippingtonFeb 19, 20185 votes

Onkly non toplaners can say his kit feels fair. Outside of lane or just later on, it feels quite fair, sure, but it is amongst the most oppresive shit that ever hit the early laneing phase. His shit is not really avoidable without tier 2 boots, and his base damage is so fucking high that you hp get decimated if you get hit once while he also can shove in anyone with aoe on all abillities His mid to late is easy to handle, but his early lane is way beyond even jayce'd bullshit or even pant, and his winrate curve shows that with over 60% win in 0-25min, and below 50% at 35+ min

RalanrFeb 19, 20184 votes

Well he is a “lane pushing bully.”

Tails9016Feb 19, 20182 votes

I thought he wasn't supposed to be good early, and he's supposed to be a lategame hypercarry

RalanrFeb 19, 20187 votes

He hasn’t been a late game hypercarry for a loooong time. His rework removed that identity.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20181 votes

making tank into lane bully is so retarded.

RalanrFeb 19, 20185 votes

Why? He’s not much a bully against actual bullies and it makes his laning phase as something beyond just get tanky for teamfights.

He’s meant to be an aggressive champion.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20181 votes

with comet he's a bully now, played like a mage (jesus this f****** hashinshin was right).

Why he shouldn't ??? cause the point of bully champ is to be good during lane and then fall. A tank by design just get better when game drag on (and ofc shine in tf).

He’s meant to be an aggressive champion.

making him an aggressive champion dosn't mean a bully. i mean, he was main most played champ before ranked, i didn't played him for the lane (unless i played the kamikaze sion). Sion don't just tanky, even when he don't build any damage, u should just look at his base damage on his ult at last level (he have good ad ration btw).

RalanrFeb 19, 20182 votes

I know he has high damage for a tank. Sion does fall off late because tanks end up falling off late game as everyone builds their anti tank gear.

Heck his winrate supposedly lowers as the game goes on. Comet Sion is bull I agree. But that doesn’t make him a bad design for how he scales.

Besides, true lane bully designs like pantheon unhealthy for the game.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20182 votes

i didn't talk about his design (outside of the "tanks shouldn't become lanebully").

Besides, true lane bully designs like pantheon unhealthy for the game.

can't disagree

RalanrFeb 19, 20181 votes

Do you know why?

Imo it’s because they don’t provide anything else. Sion imo works because he’s not a powerful lane bully (though he can act as one) but scales later to be useful in teamfights rather than 1v1’s.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20181 votes

hum to me its more cause when u go against a pantheon its not how strong u are, but how bad the panth' player is. Most of his spells are point and clic, with a point and clic cc (God i hate point and clic hard cc).

But i don't really agree with the fact he dosn't provide anything else. I just think, the more the game last the more he move from divers/assassins to a peeler.

3TWarriorFeb 20, 20181 votes

now imagine Panth...with a longer range, minion bypassing dash CC

that would probably be his only alternative beyond just increasing the range of the dash without the minion bypass, but then he would probably need compensation somewhere else to round out that very few melee can get away with non-targeted abilites

NemeBroFeb 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PEdZEtQt,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-19T20:53:08.858+0000)

making tank into lane bully is so retarded.

Not really sure what you expect Sion to do then. His late game is dog shit.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 20, 20181 votes

no offense, but u should question ur level. Sion isn't late isn't bad. unless u mean duel thing.

NemeBroFeb 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PEdZEtQt,comment-id=000300000000000100010000,timestamp=2018-02-20T00:09:31.782+0000)

no offense, but u should question ur level. Sion isn't late isn't bad. unless u mean duel thing.

That must be why, even with Sion being at his strongest in ages, he has a 45.5% win rate past forty minutes.

Z3SleeperFeb 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But the thing with him in contrast to Yasuo, even if he is overturned, his kit feels fair.

Gotta disagree here. Being hit by E (which is near undodgeable) and then having to eat the following Q while he has a shield so you can't retaliate doesn't feel fair at all.

Granted E is hard to hit for the Sion player, it's impossible to dodge for the opposition. You're relying on him missing it. You can sidestep constantly to reduce his chances of landing it but you aren't going to dodge it. That's not what I call counterplay.

RalanrFeb 19, 20182 votes

I’d argue the counterplay is positioning yourself to make it so it’s even harder to hit you.

Z3SleeperFeb 20, 20181 votes

Problem is, you're most likely melee and you have to melee minions to kill them. It's fairly simple to punish someone going for cs in melee range, no matter how they try to fake it out.

Dw I'm not one to just complain right away without trying it out. Faced em a few times now and I've concluded as an immobile melee it's simply out of your hands. Thus when going against a Sion your goal is to simply survive lane knowing that you have the better late game.

Teridax68Feb 20, 20181 votes

This I think is exactly it. Sion is a good example of a kit that feels fair even when he's way too strong, so that even when he gets a win rate as excessive as 55%, he still slips under everyone's radar. Meanwhile, the moment Yasuo just barely even gets over 50%, he gets yelled at, because he does not feel nearly as interactive. This I think is why designs like Sion's, which have very clear weaknesses and give agency to his opponents, have much better long-term viability than a kit like Yasuo's, who might feel cool to play but otherwise are tremendously disruptive.

greekvandaLFeb 19, 201815 votes

Yeh cause he is easy to deal with. Unlike all adcs that rightclick you to death. Lulu/Janna who lane bully while having almost permanent shields with steroids and hard peel and aids like Zoe that is rightfully beeing gutted to unplayability. LEMME GUESS you are one of those people who bitch about Darius and thinks Jayce is a skill matchup for toplaners elegiggle

Pierce The VealFeb 19, 201814 votes

Sion is not easy to deal with in the least.

greekvandaLFeb 19, 201815 votes

{quoted}

Sion is not easy to deal with in the least.

lack of mechanical skill level isnt my concern. You can dodge everything in his kit aside his autoattacks.

Pierce The VealFeb 19, 201813 votes

Forcing you to dodge is all he needs to do. Tell masters and challengers to have better mechanical skill level would you?

He has a lot of tools to handle things, and all he needs to do is force you to misposition to survive him. His area of control and power is huge and so he forces entire teamfights to revolve around him. Either you ignore him and potentially get screwed, or you have to reposition to somehow avoid him and end up facing other skillshots.

Let’s not talk about how uninteractive he is in lane. He E’s you, Q’s you, and if you decide to go in on him he W’s and hits you back harder.

ImGodlyatYasuoFeb 19, 20182 votes

Hes easy to deal with in lane and team fighting hes a bit of a handful hes someone whos hard to balance because of the fact hes all skill shots.

Pierce The VealFeb 21, 20181 votes

Sion... easy to deal with in lane? I never expected to hear that in one sentence.

And only a “bit of a handful?” Wow. When I think teamfight disruption tank, there really isn’t one that’s better at it than Sion. I wouldn’t call that a “bit of a handful.”

ImGodlyatYasuoFeb 22, 20181 votes

What the fuck you can just dodge them <Removed by Moderation>....Be unpredictable the skill shot isnt enough range to kill you off screen and it has a complex animation just fucking look for the love of god its not hard for the love of god.........Not once in my life has a sion lane bullied me....Comet? Ap? Tank? Ad? Not once you just fucking dodge and dodge....His Q is dumbly easy to beat because without the stun its damage is minor to most tanks and if you are playing a bruiser it hurts like hell but picking an immobile bruiser into a tank would hurt like hell anyways. Also naut???? I mean just ignore him right? What about leona???? Shit she doesnt count...What about (insert tank) (insert high cc champion) If I think team fight disruption tank I think leona. I think zac for the love of god why the hell dont you think zac????? <Removed by Moderation>

Totally Not JinxFeb 23, 20181 votes

Hello there! I've edited out part of your comment as it did not fit in with the Universal Rules; please keep conversation respectful, even if you disagree. If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

BlåbæretFeb 19, 201815 votes

While he probably needs nerfs, Sion is one of the fairest and better designed champions in this game. His design really isn't the issue here.

OP Garen SupportFeb 19, 201814 votes

Except Sion is not cancer to play against. Yasuo could have -10 % winrate still would piss people off.

AhristocatsFeb 19, 20187 votes

it doesn't matter

if sion has 55.7% win rate he does not deserve to be defended and should be nerfed

that if you care about having a balanced game

RalanrFeb 19, 201810 votes

He deserves to be defended but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve a nerf. Sion has a good design that’s been pushed over by the power of the runes.

He doesn’t need crazy nerfs, just nerfs.

AhristocatsFeb 19, 20183 votes

So?

people don't say Sion has a garbage design they say that he's overpowered no matter what

no matter if he's healthy, has counterplay, or isn't frustrating what so ever nerf him

RalanrFeb 19, 20183 votes

But the question is how to nerf him. A lot of people want to hit his E, but he’s been maxing E in lane for the past two seasons for good reason. It should be done carefully.

Which frankly I don’t think most people asking for nerfs are caring for.

TheWoollyMammothFeb 19, 20183 votes

The problem with not hitting is E. is that that is what they put over the top with comet, That combined with manaflow and scorch is heavy poke. I'm more of an aftershock man. Cause I play supportive in my lanes. But the abuse cases definitely revolve around e harass.

This being said. Until the buffs to his direct competition come out, I would hesitate to hit him at all, because he is still an immobile skill shot based tank.

RalanrFeb 19, 20183 votes

I’m an aftershock/Grasp user myself, though I always use scorch and mana flow because it makes sense and I spam abilities on any champion I play.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20182 votes

Comet sion is toxic, but his wr with other keystones is closly same

jadelinkFeb 20, 20181 votes

I suspect a mana cost boost on the E would be the way to go. "Melee" champs with an insane amount of poke are often a problem.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 19, 20181 votes

Sion isnt cancer to play against ?? pls start by play the game, then the lane and come back give ur review.

A main top, who played against 4 Sion top his last 7 last games (and just let my place for the 4th game, and played wu adc)

AhristocatsFeb 19, 20183 votes

sion in theory isn't cancer to play against

but with comet scorch mana flow band and E max he is

OP Garen SupportFeb 19, 20182 votes

Ah I see your problem. Wukong has been dogshit for the past 2 years. I used to play a lot of wukong myself when he was viable. I do miss playing him but its not Sion's fault that Wukong sucks. I do play a lot of Sion. Let me say you this he is hard to play and many champs on top shits on him. You could try playing Sion yourself. By doing so you will learn his weaknesses, which champions wipes the floor with you and how to play against him.

I do agree that Wukong needs a serious GU to make him viable. At least a decent passive.

flibitydooFeb 19, 201813 votes

Because contextually, Yasuo is a risky carry champion. If he's winning, he's not being carried by his team, he's doing the carrying.

When a support or tank get's a high winrate, there's still the consideration that they didn't win the game on their own and that their adc/mage/assassin did most of the real damage and that they merely helped augment that.

And this connects back to gameplay deciding the actual OPness of a champ than winrate. You don't feel like sion is kicking your ass, you feel like him and his team are working together to whoop you and your whole team.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 19, 20183 votes

Almost like it's a team game. Yasuo with 55% winrate has no more impact than sion with 55% winrate.

No class can solo carry, classes can have more or less impact depending on role and class, but if a tank has 55% winrate he isnt getting carried. Just like when soraka with 55% isnt getting carried just cause she has lowest damage in endgame stats.

flibitydooFeb 19, 20189 votes

You haven't read a lick of what I've stated.

To put it more bluntly for you, If you pick yasuo mid and you feed, the likelyhood you lose is much much more higher than if you did just as badly on Sion top. The repercussions is your team is now down a DPS versus down a tank (and yes, your team suffers a massive DPS down, as you go higher in rank, people pick their champs to round out team comps, so if your DPS failed then you have no DPS). If your team is down a tank, that's not so bad since all you had to do was just be the first to die and die slowly and that's all your team expects of you.

If yasuo wins his lane, and is snowballing, then he's going to swing the game;in fact, if he can genuinely takedown whoever's strongest on the enemy team, he's basically won the game at that point. Even if his teammates aren't up to par. Sion winning his lane doesn't mean jack, what matters is did his botlane go at least neutral? And if his botlane (or whoever is carrying) is on par/even with the enemy, then maybe Sion can make some good plays to secure victory and influence the game in his favor and actually be the deciding factor (the 55%). Because the enemy team being slightly ahead means his team still loses in numbers even if he plays everything perfectly. Supports/tanks work like that.

Which is why no one, especially pros (of any esport) really complains about them. There's nothing to complain about since their power is tied to teamwork.

I know you want to live in your fantasy land of "everyone is equal" but that's not how league of legends or any game like this works. You have different units and they'll each impact the game differently in their own way. It's why when you look at what makes up top 100 (IN ANY GAME SUCH AS DOTA TOO), you'll see there's specific roles that dominate and roles that seem a bit short. Because those roles (carry) have much greater influence than their peers.

Hella KaiserFeb 19, 20184 votes

55% winrate yasuo 1v5 -> ally Quadra kill 55% winrate sion 1v5 -> an ally has been slain...

DeadUnbornFeb 19, 20184 votes

after an ally has been slain...

item 3022 item 3142 item 3153 item 3800 item 3742 item 3111

Clearly you do not know how to use Sion's Passive [slayer-jinx-wink]

Hella KaiserFeb 19, 20183 votes

Sion 1v5 item 3072 item 3009 item 3074 item 3142 item 3046 item 3071

"an ally has been slain... Pentakill!!!"

BestPudgeNAFeb 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Because contextually, Yasuo is a risky carry champion. If he's winning, he's not being carried by his team, he's doing the carrying.

When a support or tank get's a high winrate, there's still the consideration that they didn't win the game on their own and that their adc/mage/assassin did most of the real damage and that they merely helped augment that.

And this connects back to gameplay deciding the actual OPness of a champ than winrate. You don't feel like sion is kicking your ass, you feel like him and his team are working together to whoop you and your whole team.

This is a full retard comment. Damage=/= carrying,

If i gank your lane with 3 times Zac do like 200 dmg a gank, but land my Es and Qs so u get easy kills and fed, you didn't carry those ganks i did. If i Zac land an E on both the mid laner and ADC in a team fight then R them to the death i carried that team fight despite doing very little damage. The fact you think Engages, roams, TP ect can't be what actually carried the game just shows a major lack of understanding about how the game works.