You guys are right, champions walking at you slowly or running at you less slowly is toxic

Moody P·Oct 19, 2018·39 votes·12,278 views

It's just not fair to play against a champion with a telegraphed engage who can easily be peeled or kited into oblivion if they're trying to play on autopilot and not paying attention

I'd much rather play against a champion who can engage onto you from the other end of the lane faster than you can react with ranged hard CC and who kills me before I'm allowed to move again even though they're not supposed to be an assassin. That's much better since we all know that outplays are pure mechanics, and if your champion isn't flashy and mechanical then clearly you can't outplay anyone, ever, and you obviously only won that fight through pure stats

the second is much healthier haha

58 Comments

VerxintOct 19, 201831 votes

I never understood why champions with a bunch of dashes and ways to avoid damage are considered "le high skill" while champions that have to walk at you in a straight line are "omg so braindead"

Moody POct 19, 201812 votes

because if it's not MECHANICAL it's not SKILLED

ChaddyFantomeOct 19, 201821 votes

{quoted}

I never understood why champions with a bunch of dashes and ways to avoid damage are considered "le high skill" while champions that have to walk at you in a straight line are "omg so braindead"

because one requires proper execution while the other just requires stat checking ?

KhâmulOct 19, 201814 votes

one requires proper execution while the other requires you not to go in situation that would make yourself get killed because you have no escape. Different kind of skills.

DarukongSrOct 19, 201814 votes

{quoted}

because one requires proper execution while the other just requires stat checking ?

The former has many more tools, the latter group has to get creative unless massively ahead.

Meteor DrizOct 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

because one requires proper execution while the other just requires stat checking ?

Yeah you're right, but you got them backwards I think :)

Moody POct 19, 20187 votes

VOLIBEAR ONLY RUNS AT YOU IN A STRAIGHT LINE

VOLIBEAR WILL NEVER ADJUST HIS TRAJECTORY FROM POINT A TO POINT B BECAUSE IT'S ALL STATS

THERE IS NO OUTPLAY IN THIS EQUATION, VOLIBEAR JUST RUNS AT ME AND WINS

t. 0 volibear games

NahuiOct 19, 20184 votes

Except that is 100% factual. Hate it all you want, less mechanically intense champions take less mechanical skill to play. No skill doesn't refer to game sense or predictions or mind games or anything. People say no skill because of the champion's abysmally low skill ceiling. Obviously a pre-rework Warwick with double the CS of an Ekko or Kayn is a clear display of skill, but that skill is jungle pathing and general game knowledge. Pre-rework Warwick is still brain dead and him getting kills or even performing at both the most basic level/most advanced level (Nearly identical) does not display any sort of mechanical skill.

Some champions you do have to play to understand their skill ceiling/skill floor, but not all. Voli, pre-rework Warwick, Yi, pre rework Nunu, Xin, Garen, etc. Anyone can look at their spell rotations/actions and understand those are just simple, beginner champions designed to be easy to handle. The downside is that they are not versatile, which is where the game knowledge aspect clicks for them. But in terms of raw user-handling skill, a pre-rework Warwick/Nunu/Voli could almost never take more skill to use than most of the rest of the roster, let alone advanced mechanical champions.

That's why they exist though. Beginner, easy as shit champions are designed to teach new players the game and develop their game knowledge/sense. Once you get that down, then you move on to a champion that actually takes skill to handle and maneuver.

TotalJerkOct 19, 20184 votes

Yi is actually one of the most high skill ceiling champions in the game, though. Sure his floor is very low, but there's an insane level of skill required to play him perfectly.

Moody POct 19, 20183 votes

100% factual

no it isn't.

post rank please

Iota ThetaOct 19, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=00020001000300000001,timestamp=2018-10-19T18:23:22.081+0000)

no it isn't.

post rank please

And who are you to call for someone’s rank when your posting account has <10 games?

Edit: and a level 7.

AirKingNeoOct 19, 20182 votes

>not acknowledging people can have alt accounts

Iota ThetaOct 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

>not acknowledging people can have alt accounts

Never said people couldn’t. Only commented their posting account. But when someone tries to call out someone’s rank from a level 7 alt account, there’s something fishy there. Perhaps anprevious ban, perhaps wanting to hide their own rank or reputation. If they are going to call rank on someone’s input, they should be willing to show their own.

Moody POct 19, 20181 votes

im Moody P you can see the username

Iota ThetaOct 20, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=0002000100030000000100000001,timestamp=2018-10-19T23:13:46.013+0000)

im Moody P you can see the username

Uh huh. I see that, but who are you really? You try to talk like you’re more intelligent about stuff in this game than others, yet you hide on a level 7 alt account with <10 games played, none recently, then try to call on someone’s rank. You’re doing so for some reason. Perhaps a ban. Perhaps hiding your own rank or a bad reputation among the boards.

But you can’t call rank on someone and not expect someone to call you out in return.

Moody POct 20, 20181 votes

your attempt at playing sleuth is flattering

i asked rank, no call out needed. will gladly tell you im currently in plat 2 hovering 50%, but you never asked

Moon MomOct 19, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=00020001000300000001,timestamp=2018-10-19T18:23:22.081+0000)

no it isn't.

post rank please

Hah. yes it is. I main the most telegraphed assassin in Diamond. No skill involved at all, just stat checking.

Moody POct 19, 20182 votes

in diamond

which diamond

no skill involved

til me having to manually avoid incoming peel is stat checking

Moon MomOct 19, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=0002000100030000000100010000,timestamp=2018-10-19T19:00:37.381+0000)

which diamond

til me having to manually avoid incoming peel is stat checking

Diamond 4-5. I don't understand your second point. You have to wait or go in when theres no vision. It's very difficult to react to. Also, you're on a level 7 account. I don't see why you can't hop on your main.

Moody POct 19, 20181 votes

difficult to react to volibear lol

most telegraphed assassin Diana QRR dead carry

gonna have to yikes you on this one today

Moon MomOct 19, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=000200010003000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T21:09:39.445+0000)

difficult to react to volibear lol

gonna have to yikes you on this one today

I mean she has to walk on you like volibear does.

ShadowParkerOct 20, 20182 votes

Why should he have to post his rank?

Just because one is of a higher rank, doesn’t mean they can’t be wrong.

Honestly you just seem like an ass

Moody POct 20, 20181 votes

wah wah why did he ask for rank what a mean man

knowing what rank people are from gives a lot of context on how somebody experiences league and lets me know how to approach the conversation

RaxicorOct 20, 20181 votes

Er, wouldn't it be easier to look it up yourself instead of waiting for an answer? o.o;

Moody POct 20, 20181 votes

was on my phone

CaveslothOct 19, 20181 votes

Yeah unfortunately Riot is systematically taking all the easy to pick up and play champs and remaking them to more tuned for high skill organized play. Give them a few years, and there will be none of those left.

VerxintOct 19, 20187 votes

Because none of those champions have mechanics that allow you to alter the outcome. -Kiting is just a stat check and does not involve skill -Target selection and engagement timing involves no skill Darius doesn't have a sweet spot on his Q to avoid DrMundo isn't dependent on a skillshot to stick targets Illaoi isn't the most telegraphed thing in existence and required to hit a pull Yorick isn't ult dependent nor does he require a skillshot nor is it possible to kill the units responsible for a huge portion of his damage Yeah you're right, these champions involve clicking a button and watching while the game crunches numbers and there is nothing either player can do to influence the outcome. Meanwhile Irelia and Yasuo are clearly tons of fun to fight against when they simply have more of everything than you do.

There is more skill expression in this game than le ebin mechanics. The less tools you have available, the more you have to compensate for it with smart descisions and awareness.

Warlord DienekesOct 20, 20182 votes

I'm not certain that's strictly true.

Take for example, the situation where you are attempting to get to the enemy team while they are firing skill shots at you. Of that situation, the one that only has basic movement to try and dodge the skill shots is actually performing a more difficult maneuver that requires more precise execution than the one with a blink of some kind.

It is, however, a much less flashy maneuver. That requires the player to be reactive, instead of active.

Now, the character that just walks forward with enough hit points or shields or whatnot that they no longer need to manually dodge, that character is just a stat check.

ThilmerOct 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I never understood why champions with a bunch of dashes and ways to avoid damage are considered "le high skill" while champions that have to walk at you in a straight line are "omg so braindead"

Yeah, I have read comments here saying things like "Singed is so easy to play, you can kill people without even using autoattacks".

... Da fuq? [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Hayaishi2Oct 19, 201821 votes

Camille is fun.

Moody POct 19, 201819 votes

i was talking about irelia but camille works for this too

hehe xd

DisulfiramOct 19, 20188 votes

Oh, I thought you were talking about . Or Ekko . Or Lissandra . Or was it a very fed Ahri ? :p

EDIT: Don't nitpick over a joke... :/

Tahminatrix Oct 19, 20187 votes

Liss is kinda inbetween, her E has a movement speed of like 800, its fast but its telegraphed af, only question is if / when she pops out of it.

Trias000Oct 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Or .

Her claw moves slower than Garen runs.

Vlada CutOct 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T13:45:34.980+0000)

i was talking about irelia but camille works for this too

hehe xd

Bladesurge spam vs. Single Hookshot Hmmmm

Moody POct 19, 20188 votes

camille cross-map hookshot with a hitbox 4x as wide as the indicator followed up with targeted cage-trap

:thinking:

Vlada CutOct 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-19T15:07:02.150+0000)

camille cross-map hookshot with a hitbox 4x as wide as the indicator followed up with targeted cage-trap

:thinking:

And those one shot legs... > Mettatin EX. [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

abca98Oct 19, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T13:45:34.980+0000)

i was talking about irelia but camille works for this too

hehe xd

Oh I thought we were on Rakan for a second.

LTK KoRoOct 20, 20181 votes

Camille doesn't match the post tbh, she can't kill you during her pitiful stun.

ankoanko19Oct 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PA4UP7Eb,comment-id=000000000003,timestamp=2018-10-20T18:24:20.575+0000)

Camille doesn't match the post tbh, she can't kill you during her pitiful stun.

Who can? Irelias E only lasts 0.7s Jax E doesnt last long too. Unless this post was refrencing Ekko

LTK KoRoOct 21, 20181 votes

Irelia and Jax actually can kill a squishy during their stuns.

Jax aa+w+titanic reset takes less than second and it can decimate a squishy. And im pretty sure i saw fed Irelia kill a squishy with e+q+q+aa, which was pretty fast.

Both require a serious gold lead to pull off, but it's definitely possible, while Camille is hard-gated by her static 1.5 sec cd for the big Q.

DeracadaVenomOct 19, 20182 votes

Fun to play Not againt

JaspersOct 19, 201810 votes

Kai'Sa is fun.

KirbyCakeOct 19, 20187 votes

There is mechanical skill and then there is strategic macro game playing skills. Riot has been consistently removing all strategic points of the game ever since season 3. They don't like simple champions that get ahead from playing smart. Now we have broken overloaded champions that can't get punished for a single mistake and literally have to int to die to an immobile squishy that instantly dies just because he decided to leave turret range.

Iota ThetaOct 19, 20185 votes

Who said one was healthier over the other? Neither are really healthy, per se, or at least fun.

The second isn’t fun for exactly the reason you say, although I have to question if the one dying even built any defenses, and if you were talkig about Irelia, her stun is incredibly short duration, .75 seconds, but whatever. (For the record, divers are close to assassin’s in power, they just don’t have escapes).

The first isn’t fun for the user if your enemy has any knowledge. Volibear (i saw that example further down) and most juggernauts are painful to play if your target and their team know how to CC and kite. That’s where build paths come in handy, but still not fun for the user.

This also is incredibly biased. After all, the first one basically right-clikcs you to death if he gets to you and has a strong execute while also being a ball of defensive stats, while the second can be killed easier when focused in actual teamplay, as well as playing and buying some defense, like a GA, or a Zhonya’s when sticking with the team. One’s mechanically tough to play, the other incredibly easy mechanically. At least the second has windows which can be exploited mechanically (dodge the stun, for example).

ZT XperimentorOct 27, 20181 votes

I'll disagree with your last point; can't really punish someone who can negate or dodge your counter-attacks without effort, at least you can counter-build the ball of stats rolling towards you.

chipndip1Oct 19, 20184 votes

This is not a sensationalized thread.

Moody POct 19, 20182 votes

correct

DuskDaUmbreonOct 20, 20183 votes

The difference is that if, say, Volibear runs at me, the only real choice I have is to stay away from him. That means if I lack enough MS I die.

They can be so telegraphed they have a literal sign pointing out what they're doing, but if the only thing you can do against it is run away it doesn't matter.

Things being telegraphed is only relevant if it's actually possible to avoid. You can't avoid Volibear, he just runs at you, and if you lack enough MS or damage you die.

PandaNator43Oct 19, 20182 votes

People call it skill. I think what they really mean is one or both of binary and/or non-interactive gameplay.

Examples of unhealthy game play: burst ADC, there is no way to interact with them, they kill anything that is in AA range. Tryndamere: you either have CC and he dies or you die.

Both cases have low mechanical skill and so people rage about low skill champs, but its really binary/low interactive gameplay that is causing the bad feels.

As others mentions, low mechanical skill champs such as volibear or xin zhao feel much better to play against.