How to make a non-random crit

Qsario·Jan 19, 2015·15 votes·2,510 views

I know that one of Riot's design values is non-randomness. That is, that what happens in game is due to player skill, not RNG. So damage, etc. aren't random, but are fixed based on stats. Well, except for crits, that is. But there's no reason that crit can't happen x% of the time, and yet be non random.

Imagine that each hit where a crit is possible (i.e. not against a tower, where you cannot crit) stacks a counter. 25% crit = 25 stacks. At 100+ stacks, you get a critical hit and lose 100 stacks. Yes, this is a lot like Ashe's passive. As you can see, the 'extra' stacks roll over. So if you had 30% crit, after 4 hits, you'd have 120 stacks. You then get a critical hit on the 4th hit, lose 100 stacks due to that, and are left with 20 stacks. So all crits work a little like Caitlyn's passive.

Now, there are still a few wrinkles here. SotD, Cait's passive, etc. all give free crits. I think these hits should just not reset the counter. Whether they should also stack counters during the free critical hits, I'm not sure, someone would need to run the numbers to see. If they did stack, it would simply go over 100 stacks and you'd get a crit and lose 100 stacks next hit.

52 Comments

Tis a nice dayJan 19, 201511 votes

I personally like this much more than the awkward "Let's make crit have %damage increase!" threads.

DecaedeusJan 19, 20158 votes

No, this cannot work. It skews the meta heavily in favor of ADCs with strong AA modifiers, such as Caitlyn, Vayne, and Draven. They load a crit, stack it on top of their AA modifier, then immediately deal half your health in damage at level 1. Additionally Ashe's passive would have to be reworked.

Epilogue of LifeJan 19, 20154 votes

Well, too bad, because I'm personally sick and tired of only critting against minions with youmuu's+iE. Fuck everything that is even minutely decided by luck.

Chaotic ReksJan 20, 20151 votes

404RageHasBeenFound

Epilogue of LifeJan 20, 20153 votes

lol IM SO DAMN MAD!!!! but srsly, crit's pretty unfair ATM, this game should have no factor based on luck...even in matchmaking

QsarioJan 20, 20151 votes

FWIW, I think I originally saw something like this on the RoG forums a long time ago, but recent discussions brought it to mind. So I think it was originally someone else's idea, but I do like it.

It's really no different than managing sheen procs or such.

Epilogue of LifeJan 21, 20152 votes

Or managing Cait passives...

QsarioJan 22, 20151 votes

Yeah. I mean, there's a fair point that increasing reliability is, effectively, a buff to crit. But any non-random crit will have to be predictable, due to no longer being random, or just flat DPS. I like this because it gives players more ability to demonstrate skill by using crit, while flat DPS is the boring yet safe way to change crit.

Of course, Riot can always leave it random and just accept that sometimes fights will be down to luck, rather than skill.

Epilogue of LifeJan 22, 20153 votes

Anything down to luck should be removed from this game, and preferably from life.

Sightless66Jan 19, 20157 votes

SotD doesn't exist anymore and Cait's passive isn't a crit and doesn't interact with crits at all. No problems exist as I can see.

While this is an ok solution, I personally prefer making crit into a % autoattack damage increase because managing this kind of poke-mechanic on every single AD champion doesn't seem very interesting. Every champion having Cait's passive doesn't really seem fun at all. It's a very homogenizing kind of thing to have this kind of major new mechanic that you have to manage on every single champion who buys any crit (and you will buy at least a little because controllable double damage poke can't be ignored). A % damage increase would also involve fewer balance changes because a major damage steroid won't be pulling double-duty as a poke mechanic.

PalPlaysJan 19, 20151 votes

If it were a percentage increase then it wouldn't be a crit.

Sightless66Jan 19, 20152 votes

Then we'll name it something else. Right now, I only buy it because it's a % autoattack damage increase, even though it comes with variance. The variance that makes it crit is not something I value. I'd be happier having the exact same steroid without any randomness, which is what the straight % autoattack damage increase would be.

SecretAgentHulkJan 19, 20156 votes

This is interesting. I'd only ever seen and liked the %dmg modifier before, but I think this could also work.

Lisarah BotJan 19, 20155 votes

It's a bad idea due to the fact that if your first auto attack is a crit u will win the 1v1 undoubtedly just because you managed the stacks this will make champs like caitlyn,kog, corki, draven all way too strong vs shorter range adc,s like ashe, vayne, lucian,mf, sivir everyone would rush crit because guaranteed x2 damage is way too strong for example you start with 70-80 ad and a bf sword gives 50and costs 1550 while berserkers gloves give 8% crit and costs 400 1 auto attack with bf will be weaker than 1 free crit it will make rushing bf worthless also with heavy cc supp like janna and thresh which are T1 u can crit once and run away always win the trades if u can run away from the auto attacks i would imagine supports would also want crit to poke down enemy adc or supp and with bot lane being as squshi as it is it would suck. whoever has the crit available will have full control of the lane after the first back. This is way too big of a change for the game and riot won't even consider it. Bot lane would need to be relearned and remastered. Ganks will also go one way since u get a free crit if u have enough cc and it will make outplaying much harder if things are done the best way by both teams

QsarioJan 19, 20158 votes

just because you managed the stacks

I would say that's a good reason to win a 1v1--it's skill.

Bot lane would need to be relearned and remastered.

Caitlyn players should be okay, but yes, it is quite a change. But this moves the power from being luck to skill, in my view. You have some other points that it might require re-balancing. You are correct--it is a big change and I don't deny that it would change a lot. Managing crits would go from something Caitlyn players do to every ADC doing that, but I think ADCs would be fine after a bit of adjustment. It's probably a new season kind of change, rather than something you do in a patch somewhere, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there.

I'm not sure that I didn't see this elsewhere before. But I was thinking about it and I thought this was a better way to have a non-luck-based critical strike without the bigger change of simply removing it like dodge.

I should also note that, technically, you could make a dodge that was non-random based on the same mechanics, though it might be ridiculous to manage all the minion aggro and whatnot, unless it only applied to large monsters and champs. But I don't foresee dodge coming back nor am I suggesting that, though it could perhaps be an interesting champion mechanic (though we already have Panth & Jax).

PalPlaysJan 19, 20155 votes

That's why you introduce Pirate's Standard: a new item that would reduce crit damage by 60% (and give some other stuff too).

Robins TightsJan 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lisarah Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P9ZqlK1z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-19T18:02:15.172+0000)

It's a bad idea due to the fact that if your first auto attack is a crit u will win the 1v1 undoubtedly just because you managed the stacks this will make champs like caitlyn,kog, corki, **draven **all way too strong vs shorter range adc,s like ashe, vayne, lucian,mf, sivir

Corki and Draven have low range, especially in comparison to Ashe. Also this would make Ashe more strong as she has a second mechanism to crit. She could effectively Crit twice in a row.

PalPlaysJan 19, 20152 votes

This is actually a really neat idea!

zenzillaJan 20, 20152 votes

This is good.

StephenizgodJan 20, 20152 votes

This is such a good idea! I see most of the arguments against this are "This is dumb you have to manage stacks and get free crit? DUMB!" Well uh as it is now you win lane because you were luckier, that is 10x dumber then having to actually manage stacks and crits and on who you want to use the crit on and when you should go in because your crit is up or you know their crit is up, yea it would make bot lane TOO reliant on actual skill rather then who has IE and Shiv first. Skill? thats dumb i wanna in cuz i luckier.

This is a great idea, it needs a bit of tweaking though because its a bit simple and rough (obvious im not expecting you to fully work this entire thing out lol). Also there should be a new stat that increases crit damage like IE, like early game your crits do lower damage and late game they do a lot of damage. Its just dumb when your opponent buys IE first and is killing you in 3-4 shots because they were lucky. It would make ADC's weak though so there would need some working out to be done there.

ErockandrollJan 19, 20151 votes

Never Going to happen.

If you crit in a fix pattern, Then you only need to count the Auto Attacks to know when you will crit. You really cannot balance crit on a fixed Paradigm. Crit needs to be a Random Mechanic. And Their is nothing wrong with that.

Sightless66Jan 19, 20152 votes

Crit needs to be a Random Mechanic.

Not really. Take the same steroid, and remove the rng. It becomes a %damage increase to autoattacks. That would work just as well, with no randomness, and without it being pattern-based. Would be extremely easy to balance, because you'd play the same way you do with the Psuedo RNG crits we have now.

Ale non è maleJan 20, 20151 votes

No, it wouldn't work as well It would just become a mere game of numbers, cause you'll go for the champs with the highest overall damage above the others regardless of anything. The actual system is the right one to use, if they could adjust properly the crit itemization (not what they have done now that basically is a slight nerf to Statk users and a slight buff to PD users, but create different build paths for the champs that want to go full crit) and eliminate the situations where crit does not come from an itemization or gameplay choice (aka crit runes that need to go, the stupid yasuo passive

Sightless66Jan 20, 20151 votes

It would just become a mere game of numbers, cause you'll go for the champs with the highest overall damage above the others regardless of anything.

That is already exactly what people do. People play as if crit didn't have variance, and they are rewarded for doing so because it's the best choice. It wouldn't change anything there.

Ale non è maleJan 20, 20151 votes

Nope. With your proposed change you could just predict exactly the outcome of the battle on equal skill level of the players. This would make the game stale. Crit add a bit of health randomness to the game Again, the problem is when crit is given for free and is not the result of gameplay/itemization choice. For example, the lack of a strong MS on Runaan just make it unviable vs Statik/PD, and that's why crit is so widespread common in the game, rather than being the result of a choice for example of more certain damage and higher kiting potential(higher AS and MS) vs higher burst spikes (crit chance of Statik/PD)

Sightless66Jan 20, 20151 votes

Playing to the predicted value is always the best decision right now, so shit wouldn't change. Randomness that people can't play around and actually shouldn't play around is not healthy for a game. People should be able to predict whether or not they'd win or lose based on whether or not they manage their champions well, not whether or not I don't find any value in variance attached to a primary damage steroid. Not even a slight bit. It's a damage steroid first, and it could be a straight damage steroid without any problems.

I wouldn't buy Hurricane even if it gave movespeed. The lack of damage is the problem. Crit is a very strong damage steroid, so I'll buy it. That's all there is too it. Hurricane can only match the damage if I have a very, very strong on-hit effect, so unless I do, it's not worth buying something that doesn't work with crit. Also, your example doesn't really seem to support your claim. People make a choice that they want more damage instead of wanting AoE autoattacking, and that's a result of crit being given for free and not being an itemization choice?

vs higher burst spikes (crit chance of Statik/PD)

I want to make one thing clear. I don't buy crit chance for burst spikes. It's the best dps steroid in the game, which is why I buy it. If you want it to actually be about burst spikes, then it needs to be something else.

Ale non è maleJan 20, 20151 votes

Crit represent burst. Not DPS steroid. AS is DPS steroid. The problem of Runaan is that you lose both on burst and MS that is crucial to do more damage or avoid damage by chasing/kiting. So you don't just chose more sustained damage vs higher spikes of burst damage, you have also to sacrifice that precious MS which is unbearable for Runaan user because make its life much harder than the people that buy Statik/PD

Of course, there could be a damage steroid replacing crit. But the problem is that have the game being stale is bad, so flat % damage steroid substituting crit is bad in my opinion. Crit system is a compromise that give a damage steroid without making the game too predicatble as game of pure numbers. It needs to be fixed, because of the above mentioned problems. But I think it is a better system that flat %damage steroid

Sightless66Jan 20, 20152 votes

Crit is a dps steroid. Every 1% of crit chance represents a 1% increase in autoattack dps, and the effects of variance decrease as you get more of it. This is particularly true since the game does not use true RNG to calculate crit. It uses PRNG, which actually makes it quite predictable. It is an amazing dps steroid, which is why people combine it with attack speed and AD to maximize their autoattack dps. Perhaps it might work better if it was designed around random burst, but it isn't. It's bought because it is a dps steroid, not because of burst. You have to redesign it if you want it to be burst-focused.

So you don't just chose more sustained damage vs higher spikes of burst damage,

Yeah, once again, Runaan's isn't the higher sustained damage item. Crit items give much higher single-target sustained damage than Runaan's could ever aspire to. The AoE damage can't make up for it. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't buy it even if they just gave it 10% movement speed. It just doesn't hurt enough unless I have a very strong on-hit effect.

But the problem is that have the game being stale is bad, so flat % damage steroid substituting crit is bad in my opinion.

Crit is stale in my opinion. It rarely leads to unexpected outcomes, it is frustrating when it does, and it is always, always a smarter decision to play as if it had no RNG attached. To me, that's boring, because I'm not actually making any choices. RNG is interesting if I can play around it, if I can make choices based on it. Something like Dota's Rune system is a much better example of good RNG. Lol's crit sucks. I can't make a choice around it, because the best choice is always "play as if crit was non-random" because that is the right choice the vast majority of the time. If I'm not actually thinking, then it's not producing any interesting gameplay. I literally can not think of even one situation where the randomness of crit produced an outcome I consider fun. Not even one. That's why I'm fine with turning it into a %damage steroid. The game changes very little because that is essentially what crit is, and it removes something that I think contributes nothing to the game.

The game won't be predictable by pure numbers, because the number one factor will still be player actions. There just won't be any random computer "you win for no reason" situations.

Ale non è maleJan 21, 20151 votes

Crit is stale in my opinion. It rarely leads to unexpected outcomes, it is frustrating when it does, and it is always, always a smarter decision to play as if it had no RNG attached

Don't you see the contradictions? You don't want unexpected outcomes as your previous posts then you are frustrated when it does? It seems clear to me that you are a bit biased towards your proposed system, but to not admit what is stale and what is not do not help in the discussion And is obviously that the system need to be tweaked/reworked. Your statement of "play as if crit was non-random" is not wrong, because there are situations where taking crit is not a matter of a choice. Here there is the Runaan example, or the lacking of an item with more AD than IE after 4.10 change. These are not strictly related to crit, but it is clear that if you can't go for Runaan+bigger AD item than IE instead of Statik/PD+ IE you don't have really a choice if take crit or not "RNG is interesting if I can play around it, if I can make choices based on it." I couldn't agree more with that, but that's why I don't like the idea of a % flat damage steroid. How you can play around that? It would just become: "on equal skill who does more damage?" aka the game is predictable by pure numbers as long as someone doesn't exceptionally outplay the enemy

Sightless66Jan 21, 20151 votes

Do I see a contradiction in saying that I don't particularly want unpredictable computer-generated outcomes and I find it frustrating when they occur? No, that actually seems pretty straightforward to me. What contradiction are you referring to?

It seems clear to me that you are a bit biased towards your proposed system, but to not admit what is stale and what is not do not help in the discussion

Admit? Ah, so your point of view is a fact that I'm just failing to admit is true. No, I want to make this very clear. Something is stale and boring if I never have to make any choices about it. If I don't have to think, then it's boring. Because of this crit is stale, because there is no thought in it. It's boring, and I think it is boring because I never have to spare even a single thought about it. "Oh, he has some crit. Should I plan for whether or not he'll crit me an unusual number of times? No, I should just treat it as if just had a 25% damage steroid. It's always the best decision". So, it ends up being just like any other stat, except other stats don't have random unfun outcomes (and I do find them unfun, even if I win because of them).

As for bias, I openly admit I hate crit as it is right now. What's your point?

I couldn't agree more with that, but that's why I don't like the idea of a % flat damage steroid. How you can play around that?

You play around that by using the game's mechanics. Dodge a skill, hit a hard skillshot, ambush an enemy, gank someone, initiate a fight well, sneak an objective. All the elements of skilled play. Everything else in the game is a matter of pure numbers except crit, and we seem to get by just fine. It's how the game works best.

our statement of "play as if crit was non-random" is not wrong, because there are situations where taking crit is not a matter of a choice.".

There's more to it than that. It's not just about being unable to buy things other than crit. It's about how crit actually plays. Right now, your best option is to pretend crit is a % damage steroid, and make no plans relating to the enemy getting an unusual number of crits. So, there is no thought in it. Given that, I see no problems in just switching it to the flat damage steroid and removing the few negative outcomes.

Let me make my position clear. Crit would be just as brainless and dumb even if I could buy Runaan's instead of a Statik Shiv or PD. Having a lack of itemization choices is a problem, but it is a completely separate problem. Crit is a bad mechanic and and of itself.

Ale non è maleJan 21, 20151 votes

You play around that by using the game's mechanics. Dodge a skill, hit a hard skillshot, ambush an enemy, gank someone, initiate a fight well, sneak an objective. All the elements of skilled play. Everything else in the game is a matter of pure numbers except crit, and we seem to get by just fine. It's how the game works best.

But that's the whole point. Just because everything else is always just predictable, a bit of randomness is needed. I don't think we agree on what we are reffering to "stale" and what the term mean. You refer to stale as something else which is not its meaning The "stale" I refer to is the fact that, because everything else is exactly predictable, if you make crit a "certain" thing the game will eventually get to a point where the outcome of a battle is yet decided on an equal skill level. This will lead to an even more definite meta, that's where will get to a point which is in a stale, where you can't really go beyond those calculated things and picks because no other result is more efficient and thus winning

So, eliminate any kind of randomness is not positive, is what make the game "stale". The crit mechanism is fine in adding this different kind of random mechanism, as long as its actual flaws are fixed. And that's where itemization choices take a BIG role in solving the problem. The reason why you could see why you can switch to flat damage steroid, is because, as anyone can see, crit does not come as a result of a choice if it is undoubtely the better choice to get items which have crit in it. That's where Runan example come into play. Right now, every marksmen will get crit because Runaan is so disadvantaged vs Statik/PD, so get crit does not become a metter of a choice, but become just a flat damage steroid. And the biggest tradeoff, is in MS, because that's what Runaan lack the most vs Statik/PD. If you give people the choice of go for different paths, different kind of itemizations, where getting crit IS the result of a choice, you would see how crit becomes a mechanic you can build your play around just like the other ones, but with the benefit of add that element of randomness needed

In Pokemon games, there is randomness too (the critical hits), but no one think is a mechanism that need to be eliminated from that game. In LoL this same random element can be controlled much better because it come from itemizations/champ kits/runes(these ones are a bad element, imho), so there is no need to make it a flat and predetermined thing like you and other claim, rather the system can be adjusted to give the right balance between the various options. in this LOL system the problem become to not give crit for free, not give it without an itemization/gameplay choices(reason why crit runes are bad, imho, as they are just something given for basically free before game starts), but once this thing is solved, than it becomes the best system to add another layer to the game without make it "stale", as your proposal would do

Sightless66Jan 21, 20151 votes

But that's the whole point. Just because everything else is always just predictable, a bit of randomness is needed.

I don't agree. The unpredictable part is what players do. That's more than enough for the game to work on. It works for mages, supports, bruisers, tanks, so why wouldn't it work for AD carries? Randomness is not necessary to make a game unpredictable. Player interactions are the best source of unpredictability, and they are more than robust enough to make the game work.

The "stale" I refer to is the fact that, because everything else is exactly predictable, if you make crit a "certain" thing the game will eventually get to a point where the outcome of a battle is yet decided on an equal skill level. This will lead to an even more definite meta, that's where will get to a point which is in a stale, where you can't really go beyond those calculated things and picks because no other result is more efficient and thus winning

Two things: first, everything wouldn't be predictable because the entire point is having player decisions be the main factor in determining success. They always have been. They always will be. This will not change when crit goes.

Second, do you actually think crit prevents this in any way? I don't. I don't play weaker champions because "oh, this dude does less damage, but maybe I'll luck into more damage than the other guy even though it's very statistically unlikely". It doesn't work that way. No one makes that choice. Randomness is not the magic mechanic keeping anyone viable right now.

As for stale, here's my definition: If I reach a point where I don't have to think, then it's stale. Once I have crit, I have no more decisions to make about it. The randomness doesn't affect my gameplay. Because of that, it's stale. I'll accept that you define stale differently, but I don't think crit works for your definition either. It's not preserving any playstyles.

you would see how crit becomes a mechanic you can build your play around just like the other ones, but with the benefit of add that element of randomness needed

I disagree with this statement very hard, and this where I think your entire Runaan's argument falls apart. Say that I could build Runaan's and do just as well as with crit. That would be fine. However, that doesn't change the fact that crit itself wouldn't change a goddamn thing about my playstyle. I may make the choice to buy crit, but then I make absolutely no other choices once I actually have it because the best option is "pretend there is no RNG involved". I can make choices with hurricane about who to hit to get the best bounces, or whether split pushing with it might be a better use of my time. With

Crit is a boring mechanic once you have it. It's completely dull. I think the entire mechanic is terribly designed. That's why I think we could replace it with a %damage steroid without losing anything.

In LoL this same random element can be controlled much better because it come from itemizations/champ kits/runes

This isn't controlling it, it just determines whether or not it is present. Controlling implies that some choice can be made to either optimize or minimize the effect of it. I can't make any choices that optimize crit outside of just treating it as a dps steroid and mathematically maxing my dps. Whether or not I receive gain from unusual activations is completely out of my control. That's why it's such a terrible mechanic. Once you have crit, there is no thinking about it anymore. The best option is to ignore it.

Final point: you give randomness way, way, way too much credit for keeping different things viable. I think you're just completely wrong here. I think that the randomness crit gives doesn't keep any champions in play that wouldn't be in play anyways (Try might be a small exception, but he's the only once). I don't agree with you on this point. It's just not true, and nothing you've said has persuaded me on it. I'm not sure there is anything more to say at this point.

Ale non è maleJan 21, 20151 votes

I disagree with this statement very hard, and this where I think your entire Runaan's argument falls apart. Say that I could build Runaan's and do just as well as with crit. That would be fine. However, that doesn't change the fact that crit itself wouldn't change a goddamn thing about my playstyle. I may make the choice to buy crit, but then I make absolutely no other choices once I actually have it because the best option is "pretend there is no RNG involved". ...

This isn't controlling it, it just determines whether or not it is present. Controlling implies that some choice can be made to either optimize or minimize the effect of it. I can't make any choices that optimize crit outside of just treating it as a dps steroid and mathematically maxing my dps. Whether or not I receive gain from unusual activations is completely out of my control.

How this would not being control it? You would make the choice of having either more stable and certain DPS through higher certain stats(in Runaan case AS that allows you to attack more times) or have random spikes through crit that can't be counted for the normal DPS count before the battle(some autoattacks deal more damage than the same autoattack on the same champ with the same build but that has not crit

That's what crit would revolve around. Give a different choice. More choices, means that the game does not have to follow a certain path, aka is no more stale

There isn't much more to say at this point, I agree,

Sightless66Jan 21, 20151 votes

How this would not being control it?

It doesn't control it because I'm not controlling the actual mechanic of crit. Once it is in my inventory, I make no more choices about it. It's just there, increasing my dps, and not impacting my decisions in any way. When I have crit, I can't make any new decisions. I don't change a thing in my playstyle (outside of just having more dps). I can't plan around getting lucky streaks or not, because planning around that is mathematically a mistake. That's why it's not controlling it. The only choice I make is buying it, and then I never think about it again, because never thinking about it is the smartest thing I can do. That's extremely boring.

can't be counted for the normal DPS count before the battle

What do you mean? I can calculate dps with crit very easily. Each point of crit is a 1% increase in expected autoattack dps, and as I've been repeating over and over again, your best choice when you have crit is absolutely to play as if it didn't have any random spikes because those are very rarely the determining factor. When people buy crit now, they buy it for dps. That is the purpose it serves, particularly since it isn't true RNG, but PRNG. The randomness is tertiary to its purpose. The randomness contributes nothing, and if it didn't have higher dps than non-crit builds, it wouldn't be purchased at all. That's the only thing it is good for.

What your argument seems to revolve around is having more itemization choices. On that point, I agree. More itemization choices would be a great thing for the game. I just don't think crit should be one of them. Crit is a bad option, because it fundamentally a % damage increase to autoattacks, but it also has variance which you can't make decisions about. It's just a dps steroid that occasionally has a computer rarely saying "nope, we're screwing with the numbers", and you can't play around that because it always a better option not to. The game doesn't need that. A % damage steroid would work much better, and it could be implemented along items such a better hurricane just as well as crit could.

Build choices can exist without crit. It isn't necessary. I agree with giving more itemization choices, but those items should have some effect on my gameplay once I have them. The variance in crit doesn't, so it can go.

So, to make this clear: we agree that hurricane and alternate builds should be improved. That's not part of the debate. The question is, what value does crit have, independent of any of those? Aside from just being "another build", what does it actually give? My answer to that is "a dps steroid", because that is what it is used for, and that is all you can use it for because you can't plan around the randomness.

Ale non è maleJan 22, 20151 votes

The question is, what value does crit have, independent of any of those? Aside from just being "another build", what does it actually give? My answer to that is "a dps steroid", because that is what it is used for, and that is all you can use it for because you can't plan around the randomness.

Reverting the question: what added value would a flat% damage boost would give to the game that crit system can't/won't do? The thing is, flat% damage bonus give even less choices to you and give you no control on it since you would anyway be forced to get it to not get behind, and also eliminate an element around which you could revolve your build paths(once crit itemization is adjusted) and eliminate an element of randomness which is imho health

My answer is: no added value here with your system, which has more downsides than upsides.

QsarioJan 23, 20151 votes

I think the point is that randomness should come from player choices/skill/outplays, not from the computer flipping a coin and deciding that you're going to lose.

Ale non è maleJan 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the point is that randomness should come from player choices/skill/outplays, not from the computer flipping a coin and deciding that you're going to lose.

WUT? Players skills/outplays/strategic choices are the thing that for sure should NOT BRING randomness to the game. These things are rationalized at their best and should define who win the match-up Your definition/reasoning make no sense, the skill of the players and the raw stats are the thing that have to give you the exact outcome so that the guy which does better his own actions wins the game

The problem is, we will/would eventually get to the point where the game become stale because there isn't no much more room to improve either of those abovementiond things or to create more efficient patterns to move and act on the Rift with the goal of destroying the nexus This is the point when you need to add an element of randomness that "break" the game and avoid it to become too stale. That's where crit or a system like crit enter into play. Of course, the way the crit system is actually implemented is very questionable and has relevant flaws that need to be fixed and we have to discuss how to tweak it to make it better and make it achieve his goals, but a system that bring some kind of randomness to the game is needed, since you have to assure that the remaining part of the system (basic raw stats/skills/efficient patterns-actions/outplays) has to give you exact outcome to guarantee that the most skilled and coordinated team wins Old systems like dodge can't exist because it was not something you could play around in any way, it was just sheer luck. A properly adjusted crit system, a system when getting crit is a rersult of meaningful gameplay/itemization choices, is a system that you can plug into the play and bring various different patterns to the usual patterns and different strategies to beat different kind of enemies and situations

QsarioJan 24, 20151 votes

Players skills/outplays/strategic choices are the thing that for sure should NOT BRING randomness to the game. These things are rationalized at their best and should define who win the match-up

You seem to be assuming that randomness has no place in a proper strategy. This is not true. While making random moves in checkers is dumb because there's an optimal strategy that guarantees a draw - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/computers-solve-checkers-its-a-draw/ - this is not the case in a game where a mixed strategy is the Nash equilibrium. In rock paper scissors, you will lose if the other person can correctly predict your choice, for example.

LOL is a game where being too predictable gets you outplayed. You can see examples of this in how pros always move their character around so that other players can't easily read when they're going to engage. It's random because it's not predictable.

Crit isn't caused by the player. It just makes it so you win sometimes by making a dumb, but lucky decision to fight and get bigger numbers than the other guy. Your only decision is "do I buy crit?" and the answer to that was decided at champ select if you're using an optimal build. The outcome of the game is only as predictable as the players and good players aren't simply predictable.

An outplay often happens when one player is predictable and the other is not, so you might predict and negate an attack with Sivir's spell shield, or you bait an attack and then dodge it with Katarina's E, or you use Janna's tornado as a wall and then bait people into crossing it.

This is how you die in the jungle when they know what you're going to do next and lie in wait for you. This is how Ez/Ashe/Jinx/etc. can hit those skill shots from the other side of the map, because they knew you always go to the closest safe bush and recall when you escape with 4 HP. And so on.

But that's why players should decide who wins and loses, not the computer's RNG. It wouldn't be any fun if the ult that crossed the map was randomly made too weak to kill when it normally should have. Or if your spell shield rolled a failure and fizzled after you'd perfectly blocked an ult. Or if flash randomly fizzled and left you to die.

So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to have your AAs randomly vary from 1x to 2x strength, causing you to lose because you could not predict if you would roll high or low.

Ale non è maleJan 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be assuming that randomness has no place in a proper strategy. This is not true. While making random moves in checkers is dumb because there's an optimal strategy that guarantees a draw - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/computers-solve-checkers-its-a-draw/ - this is not the case in a game where a mixed strategy is the Nash equilibrium. In rock paper scissors, you will lose if the other person can correctly predict your choice, for example.

LOL is a game where being too predictable gets you outplayed. You can see examples of this in how pros always move their character around so that other players can't easily read when they're going to engage. It's random because it's not predictable.

Crit isn't caused by the player. It just makes it so you win sometimes by making a dumb, but lucky decision to fight and get bigger numbers than the other guy. Your only decision is "do I buy crit?" and the answer to that was decided at champ select if you're using an optimal build. The outcome of the game is only as predictable as the players and good players aren't simply predictable.

An outplay often happens when one player is predictable and the other is not, so you might predict and negate an attack with Sivir's spell shield, or you bait an attack and then dodge it with Katarina's E, or you use Janna's tornado as a wall and then bait people into crossing it.

This is how you die in the jungle when they know what you're going to do next and lie in wait for you. This is how Ez/Ashe/Jinx/etc. can hit those skill shots from the other side of the map, because they knew you always go to the closest safe bush and recall when you escape with 4 HP. And so on.

But that's why players should decide who wins and loses, not the computer's RNG. It wouldn't be any fun if the ult that crossed the map was randomly made too weak to kill when it normally should have. Or if your spell shield rolled a failure and fizzled after you'd perfectly blocked an ult. Or if flash randomly fizzled and left you to die.

So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to have your AAs randomly vary from 1x to 2x strength, causing you to lose because you could not predict if you would roll high or low.

Becaue what you are describing is not randomness. There is no randomness n what you descirbe. The ability of predict the next moves of an enemy is just one of the many ability that define the skill level of a player. And the movement pros do when they move around to avoid to be readed by the enemies are not "random" in the sense they don't know what to do, these moves are made with the purpose of remaining in the best possible position without being at risk of being caught and while hitting the highest number possible of minions to farm at the same time (the typical example are the moves that ADC do in laning phase to lasthit while being in a safe position)

You are just confirming that eveything else rather than crit give you an exact outcome, even accounting for the obvious mistakes of the player which aren't perfect and so obviously you won't have 100% of the time perfect result froma cetrtain startegy, because even the strongest players happen to do mistakes or being outplayed mechanically/strategically by the enemies. But all of that reside in the field of the players skill, that's no random element. A famous soccer coach once said that the "perfect result" in a soccer game is 0-0 cause no one on the teams make mistakes and so the game and up in a draw. You can't have a draw in LOL for his own nature. And as well as in Lol, in many other game. That's why exist in various games systems to do a bit of randomness, which in LOL are represented by crit system Again, should this system be tweaked to become an healtheir mechanic in the sesne that crit can be used to open up different itemization/gameplay pattern unlike the actual situation where you get crit not as a conscious decision but as side consequene of other decisions? YES. Does it mean should be replaced with a nother system that take completely out every element of randomness from the game like the%flat damage boost proposed? NO

QsarioJan 19, 20151 votes

I'm assuming it would give you some sort of passive 'stacks' icon, like we do for every other kind of stack. Probably one in the middle, as it's pretty important for dueling. Not unlike people do for lots of other abilities, like Ashe's focus.

Chaotic ReksJan 20, 20151 votes

let's make item 3085 a god tier item now

QsarioJan 20, 20151 votes

The bolt isn't an AA, it just deals 10 (+ 50% AD) physical damage and applies on-hit effects. I think it does trigger Cait's passive, but it doesn't have to give you critical strike stacks unless they want it to.

Ryu the firstJan 20, 20151 votes

dude, the attk. spd is worth noting as well.

agbudarJan 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The bolt isn't an AA, it just deals 10 (+ 50% AD) physical damage and applies on-hit effects. I think it does trigger Cait's >passive, but it doesn't have to give you critical strike stacks unless they want it to.

the bolts count as an AA for pretty much everyone except Vayne's W doesn't get benefits from it. so for example each auto attack Graves dash is reduced by 1 second with runaan's it gets reduced by 3 seconds if you have 3 targets that get hit by it.

QsarioJan 20, 20151 votes

Even if it counts for those, we know they can special-case it, because they have--to avoid weakening Vayne's W by constantly resetting it, as you've pointed out. If it's an issue, the extra bolt just needs to not give critical strike stacks. Every time they make a change, there's learning and re-balancing.

JustMyBassCannonJan 20, 20151 votes

Better idea; reduce the percentage bonus on current Crit items, and turn Crit into a % bonus to damage against non-structures. Still performs the job of increased damage against champions, but now it doesn't spike the DPS.

LankPantsJan 20, 20151 votes

Get 3% crit from runes, auto creeps 33 times then hit a champ.

RaptameiJan 20, 20151 votes

No, because you could charge it up on minions and then poke with it and get a double damage hit while the return shot probably won't be double damage -> best poke adcs roflstomp lane.

QsarioJan 21, 20151 votes

Well, I have to think both champs would do the same thing. It might make crit more valuable simply because it was more controllable, but that's a separate matter they can tune afterwards. I mean, Cait has always been able to poke like this, so it's not something totally out of the blue...

DoFrJan 20, 20151 votes

should you change the Crit chance System that is applied to nearly every other game with a crit chance system is a huge, if not one of the biggest changes in terms of crits