If you want to balance Juggernauts across ELOs, buff anything except their damage

Moody P··6 votes·3,158 views

Almost all recent buffs to relevant juggernaut champions has been to damage. I'd like to demonstrate why this is a terrible idea and why Riot should buff underperforming juggernaut in any way except for damage.

From recent memory, you can see:

Darius given +20 more AD on his passive at max rank (translating to higher damage across all abilities), higher AD scaling and a lower cooldown on W, higher armor pen on E.

DrMundo Ult: Total health regenerated increased to 50 / 75 / 100% of maximum health from 40 / 50 / 60%. Subsequent patches nerfed his E's AD steroid by 20-30 at max rank based on missing HP.

Garen Q damage increased by up to 40 at max rank. Later nerfed by 20. Armor/MR passive from W increased by 10. W given 60% tenacity in the first .75 seconds. E given % armor shred on targets hit by 4 spins.

Illaoi (upcoming) E cooldown reduced by rank 1, unaffected at max rank. Ult cooldown reduced by up to 20 seconds at max rank.

Nasus Lifesteal increased by 2/3/4% per rank of passive. E armor reduction changed from flat to percentage. R now halves his Q cooldown when activated.

Olaf W attack speed increased by 15% at all ranks. E scales better with AD, R's steroid scales with AD.

Urgot can cast other spells while Purge is active. No longer rooted while grinding someone in his R. Q delay reduced from 0.85 to 0.6. Passive cooldown reduced from 30-10 to 30-2.5 (though no longer effected by CDR). R missile speed increased to 3200.

Noticing a trend? The buffs that have had the most significant impact are the ones that dramatically impact usability or defense. While most Juggernauts have been sadly relegated Bronze-Gold pubstompery as a result of Riot's poor balance, some of them have been lucky enough to still make waves all the way up the ladder. Garen is now a viable champion all the way up to Masters (though preseason hasn't been friendly to him); Urgot is an A+ if not S tier champion across every rank; Dr. Mundo briefly terrorized everyone as a strong response to season 8's short-lived mage meta when Riot attempted their diversity plan in bot lane.

On the other hand, the raw number buffs that are doled out to the champions in terms of strictly damage have had little real effect in the long term and do not solve any of their issues keeping them from seeing high ELO play; those issues being that they are far too reliant on one form of defense (sustain) to survive as well as not being able to reliably reach a viable target compared to how easy they are to lock down and burst. Garen's Q getting a damage buff has only further stigmatized him in lower ranks despite his W buffs being far more significant in reality. Nasus gets continuous buffs mostly to his ability to output damage and yet can never stay meta longer than a month, even when the game should favor him. Darius has only become more of a pubstomper than ever, while continuing to have middling performance in higher ranks as the game accelerates past him. The Olaf changes, simply put, didn't do anything; they didn't even shake Olaf off of his full tank builds like Riot wanted him to. I suspect the Illaoi changes will have the same effect; the E cooldown change is most relevant against players who have poor positioning that will actually enable E to be used off cooldown to begin with. The R change, while nice, still does not address her intended design as an anti-engage champion vs how laughably easy it is to stunlock her on an engage and kill her before she can do anything.

If you want to give Juggernauts meaningful changes that don't make the lower ELOs hate them even more vocally than they already do. Then you should improve their usability, target access and/or their ability to defend themselves. Handing out flat damage boosts to them does not help them in higher ranks where they can rarely actually apply it, but makes them incredibly overbearing in lower ranks. Hell, you could even nerf some of their damage if you want to give them more ambitious survivability buffs, and I'd call that a good deal almost every single time.

5 Comments

TheSingularity1 votes

The issue with buffing either aspect is: too tanky for too little investment or too much damage for too little investment. This is a problem mainly due to a majority of juggernauts dealing damage in a burst pattern with exceptions like nasus, yorick and trundle who gain different tool in exchange (generally more utility). We saw this in the past where all a juggernaut needed was cleaver and they'd instagib everything.

Most then share a problem with tanks (tank main so don't hate me). In that they have very little margin of error and when only slightly too strong, are obscenely oppressive as during lane the enemy is forced to do half the work for you, getting into you engagement range. Yes urgot has 3 skillshots, but their hitboxes are huge or the projectile is fast. Yes a missed dari Q can screw him over, but the rest of his kit can make up for it. Probabaly the only juggs I would say loses when they miss a skill are illaoi/yorick and their E's. I am in no way saying any of them are inherently unbalanced. Personally I love the kled darius match up, weaving in and out of his Q.

Thirdly their main weakness of immobility doesn't come into play enough. In lane specifically, I feel juggernauts need a more blatant downside to their kits. As despite their general immobile nature in team fights, where they're easily peeled, in lane you're forced to go within a certain range to farm and if they catch you in lane you're as good as gone. Add in phage as a common buy and this immobile weakness is almost irrelevant.

imo these 3 aspects make them hard to balance because the most important stat in the game is damage, and they're tied with skirmishers/divers as the best melee class for damage.

Olaf and nasus should remain relatively weak until they can be reworked because they inherently lack counterplay: olaf being an oppressive lane presence who punishes you for winning, and nasus being a far stronger laner than he should be given the kit he has.

I am curios as to what you would change, would you mind proposing a rough idea of ideal non damage changes to each juggernaut? Would be interesting to discuss

Moody P1 votes

I am curios as to what you would change, would you mind proposing a rough idea of ideal non damage changes to each juggernaut?

Illaoi Remove tentacles getting faster during ult. Give her an armor/MR steroid while the ult is active + let R cleanse CC so she can contest stunlock. Make E buff tentacles to spawn from Illaoi when a spirit dies instead of debuffing the enemy, would be a huge buff to Illaoi and simultaneously would make her a lot less frustrating to fight.

Garen W now grants its armor/mr bonus to nearby allies for the duration.

Darius Revert all the damage buffs he got this year, give him tenacity when Noxian Might activates and revert the stealth range nerf on his E that he got last year.

Nasus R's defensive steroid should cap sooner than the last second. Nerf his passive sustain but make it pre-mitigation so he can function in teamfights by healing off of tanks.

Volibear not have a 2 minute cooldown on a shitty heal over time would be a nice start

TheSingularity1 votes

Illaoi I like the ult changes overall. However the tentacles are that fast in order to match the potential speed at which illaoi can uses W (due to the CDR it gains). I feel the E change is an overall nerf and defeats the purpose of getting hit (as illaoi lacks chase capability and all tentacles that could be spawned, are likely already there). The E isn't that hard or frustrating to deal it: let a tent spawn, dodge it, stand next to it until debuff expires Perhaps a good power trade could be initial ult damage. Perhaps remove "150 / 250 / 350 (+ 50% bonus AD)" and replace with MR/armor steroid (make it a % so she needs def items to make it better)

Garen Interesting approach, I like it :D In addition: E/Q damage buffed a tad at ranks 3/4/5. Villain passive removed

Darius Agree. In what patch was he stealth nerfed? Curios now. A QoL change to make him a tad more healthy: Passive changed to magic damage OR base value nerfed, changed to true damage (used to be true damage pre rework)

Nasus <3 it. Honestly it should just be instant. He possibly doesn't need the mitigation change as he gets twice as many Q procs while R is active, allowing him to drain tank effectively

Volibear he's in line for a rework. Issue is he's 100% stat check. If one were to buff him, I'd buff Rm and lategame passive

DragonShea1 votes

What Juggs need are more mechanics what both increase their skill expression as well as creating defined weaknesses for them. Riot as we've seen as been too obsessed with damage and it's hurting juggs because they are a class that rely on both tankiness and damage to perform optimally and with Riot focusing on damage, that has left a lot of them in the dirt.

The key reason why some juggs are strong in this meta is because they have a surefire way to killing someone quickly, be it from Skirmisher levels of rapid damage or an execute, alongside some means of having better utility or smooth gameplay.

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