Let’s stop kidding ourselves: Shyvana needs a full scale update the most - and it’s not even close.

HateDaddy··6 votes·2,312 views

Let’s examine the 5 champions riot has proposed changes on. No worries, it’ll be brief.

Fiddlesticks:

In reality, you have a good kit that probably just needs some QoL buffs that give him more consistency. He has one of the best ults in the game. At worst, he needs a small rework to reshuffle power in his kit but fiddle absolutely lives up to his character.

Volibear:

If there was one champion that came close to Shyvana, it’s volibear. However, at least volibear is functional. He’s just bland and generic, and he really doesn’t have much of a feel character-wise.

Nocturne:

This champion just needs defensive stat buffs. A single spell shield on a diver used to be all you needed, but the game has changed. He has an amazing character and his kit has held up well over time. He just needs better scaling HP. That’s one place to start.

Dr Mundo:

C’mon man, he’s everybody’s favorite beef stick that goes where he pleases. Seriously though, I don’t think there’s anything really wrong with Mundo save for his W. You could do a small rework on this spell, because it doesn’t offer much anymore as mundo doesn’t favor the jungle any longer. Other than that, mundo is mundo.

Now let’s get onto Shyvana:

Please understand, I do not play Shyvana so I could absolutely be speaking out of term here. Then again, I almost never see Shyvana anymore and she’s a champion that used to be incredibly popular - so I have to assume she’s fallen out of favor for many of her mains. That said, I also know that the idea of riot reworking your main is terrifying but in riots defense, they’re usually pretty damn good with full scale updates.

Here’s my issue with Shyvana: what does she do? What’s unique about her? Yes, these same questions apply to voli as I mentioned above, but he at least has some functionality. Furthermore he’s bland and generic, while Shyvana has a cool concept that is simply super disappointing. She doesn’t even feel like a “two-form” champion because going into dragon form isn’t really rewarding at all. A champion that functions similarly is Gnar in that he has to build up rage to transform (though he cannot control it). You know when mega Gnar is around, you feel his presence. Dragon form Shyvana? Eh....was that a cannon minion that just hit me?

Shyvana’s biggest problem is that you have made her so reliant on just being a stat stick. Back in season 3 and 4 when she was one of the best top laners, riot constantly nerfed her because she was a champion you couldn’t really kite while you couldn’t ignore either. That was the quintessential problem with bruisers back then: they filled multiple roles while being straight forward and bland, barely any depth at all. So their playstyle, naturally, was “run at them until one of us dies.” Ask yourself this: has that really changed with Shyvana? Not really. In fact, they’ve further reinforced that with her passive, which is one of the worst passives in the game: get stats for killing dragons. So she doesn’t even truly have control over the stats she can potentially get, making it even more mundane.

Listen, Shyvana has one of the coolest potentials in league. Dude, a god damn half dragon? There’s so much there that it hurts to even think about how basic she is. It hurts to see how utterly unfunctional she is, so much so that people find it better to build her as AP than her intended on-hit bruiser style - and in my experience, AP Shyv performs better (obviously I do not have stats to confirm or deny this so I admit this is entirely anecdotal). Nevertheless, a problem. And I honestly think when you consider all of this, Shyvana has to be the most disappointing champion in the league, especially when you consider how popular she was in s2, s3, and s4.

41 Comments

Moody P7 votes

"I don't play Shyvana"

Might as well just stop there; you don't, you wont and you never will play Shyvana, so why pretend you want her improved other than to spite her player base? Its fairly consistent pattern for these replacements to alienate their original base.

Profirix2 votes

An outside view of the champion is one of the reasons you SHOULD listen to his argument because it probably isn't as emotionally connected as a main might be. I was pretty subjective on the Tahm Kench changes until I realized that it actually felt better once I gave him a shot. I gave Riot a bunch of crap for it until the rework came out thinking it was going to be a failure.

Shyvana is boring, the one thing a dragon (half) shouldn't be. Hell, dragons are the majority of the reason people got into Game of Thrones in the first place, why people were so passionate about Aurelion Sol (until his kit kinda just sucked and wasn't that interesting).

Moody P2 votes

Boring for YOU. That's what you people never grasp. There are people who DO like the champion, and never once in any of these OPs that lecture at you why your champion should just be scrapped and redone entirely do they ever consider it. Its all "me, me, me!"

And I will predict that just like near all other VGUs in this style many will go at great length to justify bad or boring rework designs and telling you how good it is now while not playing a single game of it themselves and giving NO thought to the people who played it for years.

Profirix1 votes

Unfortunately for most of us who have dedicated mains, we don't get to be the overwhelming voice when changes start coming. We get to leave our mark more-so than non-mains because Riot doesn't want to alienate the fan base, but she's not a champion that the majority of the player base cares to learn because there isn't anything remarkable about her gameplay. She is outdated. She is a season 2 relic that could benefit greatly from a Warwick-level update. Her dragon form should feel awesome and powerful instead of a fatter model with slightly augmented abilities. Her gameplay should be more than run-at-you and bash you until you or I die. There should be more intricacies to her kit that separates the expert level players from the newer players. There just aren't right now.

It isn't about 'me, me, me.' Quite the opposite actually. They are trying to make these champions appeal to a broader audience.

Moody P2 votes

There are massively more champions now than at the time Shyvana was popular.

Which VGUs are good?

Sion is toxic and nobody likes when he's good for as much as people like to show how cool they are by praising him at any chance. Same for Poppy. Swain is a generic bursty combo mage and everything that linked him to old swain is watered down or gone. Taric is toxic. Warwick is bad. Galio is a travesty. Aatrox is still a dumb champion

The only good VGUs to date are Poppy and Akali. Everybody else is mediocre or garbage. Volibear and Shyvana are in the same camp of low popularity champions as Galio and Aatrox. There's absolutely nothing exciting about this prospect.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-10T16:55:31.292+0000)

There are massively more champions now than at the time Shyvana was popular.

Which VGUs are good?

Sion is toxic and nobody likes when he's good for as much as people like to show how cool they are by praising him at any chance. Same for Poppy. Swain is a generic bursty combo mage and everything that linked him to old swain is watered down or gone. Taric is toxic. Warwick is bad. Galio is a travesty. Aatrox is still a dumb champion

The only good VGUs to date are Poppy and Akali. Everybody else is mediocre or garbage. Volibear and Shyvana are in the same camp of low popularity champions as Galio and Aatrox. There's absolutely nothing exciting about this prospect.

What? Lmao

Sion is legit one of the best VGUs riot has ever done. And nobody likes it when anything is good. His kit is fine. It’s not toxic.

Moody P2 votes

Sion is low counterplay and low interaction in lane phase, his entire game plan revolves around hitting you with attacks well past most fighters can't reach back or react to, either with E spam or uncharged Qs to pelt you down with damage. On the chance you DO get to him he has a free "stat check me harder or lose" shield to cover his ass.

No, he isn't well designed.

Profirix1 votes

Sions VGU was really well done, he just had balance issues due to his numbers. Warwick's update was incredibly successful. Swain's update was fine. Poppy's update was actually really good. Galio was fine until he was abused in pro play, now he just sucks, but not because of his update. Aatrox's kit now is much more interesting and playworthy than his old kit.

I don't get where you are coming from. Most of the updates have been huge successes, so much so that many of the champions were nerfed because they saw actual play.

True Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately for most of us who have dedicated mains, we don't get to be the overwhelming voice when changes start coming. We get to leave our mark more-so than non-mains because Riot doesn't want to alienate the fan base, but she's not a champion that the majority of the player base cares to learn because there isn't anything remarkable about her gameplay. She is outdated. She is a season 2 relic that could benefit greatly from a Warwick-level update. Her dragon form should feel awesome and powerful instead of a fatter model with slightly augmented abilities. Her gameplay should be more than run-at-you and bash you until you or I die. There should be more intricacies to her kit that separates the expert level players from the newer players. There just aren't right now.

It isn't about 'me, me, me.' Quite the opposite actually. They are trying to make these champions appeal to a broader audience.

Isn't that actually a line of hers, somewhere? - "I run at people really fast, and then I punch them."

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-10T16:26:15.944+0000)

Boring for YOU. That's what you people never grasp. There are people who DO like the champion, and never once in any of these OPs that lecture at you why your champion should just be scrapped and redone entirely do they ever consider it. Its all "me, me, me!"

And I will predict that just like near all other VGUs in this style many will go at great length to justify bad or boring rework designs and telling you how good it is now while not playing a single game of it themselves and giving NO thought to the people who played it for years.

You’re missing the point. It has nothing to do with me. The champion has had a exponential drop in a play rate, especially concerning for a champion that at one time had a huge playerbase. And are you really going to sit here and pretend Shyvana had a champion isn’t generic or uninteresting? That’s what many people are using to explain her playrate drop; that’s why she’s being suggested for a rework in the first place. And with your logic, champions shouldn’t be updated at all because the 5 people who play that champion would be upset as opposed to the millions that might play them and love them if they were actually given functional kits.

I’m starting to think this is misdirected frustration because voli is on the slate to be changed and you don’t want that. But whether you like it or not, riot has a good track record on reworking champions full scale. And to their defense, they absolutely admit they fail too and look to address those as well.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-10T16:11:53.366+0000)

"I don't play Shyvana"

Might as well just stop there; you don't, you wont and you never will play Shyvana, so why pretend you want her improved other than to spite her player base? Its fairly consistent pattern for these replacements to alienate their original base.

That is absolutely a fair criticism but that isn’t my intention at all. I’ve always liked the idea of playing her, and then I do and then I’m reminded of just how uninteresting she is. I also see a champion that just doesn’t live up to her design. And as I mentioned, this used to be one of the most popular champions in the game with a vocal and active playbase. Now? Not so much, which is the most concerning thing to me.

chipndip15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-10T16:11:53.366+0000)

"I don't play Shyvana"

Might as well just stop there; you don't, you wont and you never will play Shyvana, so why pretend you want her improved other than to spite her player base? Its fairly consistent pattern for these replacements to alienate their original base.

That's an unfair critique.

I played old Poppy once. However, I always liked the idea of playing Poppy. Now that she was reworked, she's my favorite top laner (and favorite melee champion outright, honestly).

You can come from a "play against" perspective to critique a champion.

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-10T16:55:31.292+0000)

Which VGUs are good?

The only good VGUs to date are Poppy and Akali. Everybody else is mediocre or garbage. Volibear and Shyvana are in the same camp of low popularity champions as Galio and Aatrox. There's absolutely nothing exciting about this prospect.

I stand by Irelia indefinitely. Swain is "ok". Aatrox is (finally) "aight". Urgot's is pretty good.

DalekZec5 votes

I personally voted for Fiddlesticks because I think he's a toxic champ. Laning against 1 in bot lane is bs and laning him 1v1 in mid lane (which is rare) is like playing vs a bot.

My 2nd option would be Dr.mundo though.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I personally voted for Fiddlesticks because I think he's a toxic champ. Laning against 1 in bot lane is bs and laning him 1v1 in mid lane (which is rare) is like playing vs a bot.

My 2nd option would be Dr.mundo though.

Yeah but I think they can make changes to fiddle that push him back into the jungle again, without making him an overbearing support.

DalekZec1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but I think they can make changes to fiddle that push him back into the jungle again, without making him an overbearing support.

Honestly, i thought he was meant for mid lane and not jungle or support.

L Psy Kongroo4 votes

Fiddlesticks has 7 lines of dialogue, not counting his taunt and joke. SEVEN. Compare that to most new champions that have hundreds of lines as well as unique interactions with other champions, or even the other 4 on this list who at least have separate dialogue for attacking and moving. Fiddlesticks has neither. That, at the very least, should put him above the others in line for a VU. As it stands, there's absolutely no way he "lives up to his character".

As far as his gameplay goes, all of his skills aside from his ult are both extremely unsatisfying to use and extremely frustrating to play against. Consistency is actually one of the reasons why this is: 3/4 of his skills are all point-and-click, making them VERY consistent. He doesn't need more consistency, he needs more expression and variability in how his kit works.

ExistanceSlayer1 votes

He is a scarecrow why should he be talking. The only reason he should be talking is using abilities or surprising a champ. Also their is Rammus who has what like 4 lines i think.

Linna Excel2 votes

{quoted}

Now let’s get onto Shyvana:

Please understand, I do not play Shyvana so I could absolutely be speaking out of term here. Then again, I almost never see Shyvana anymore and she’s a champion that used to be incredibly popular - so I have to assume she’s fallen out of favor for many of her mains. That said, I also know that the idea of riot reworking your main is terrifying but in riots defense, they’re usually pretty damn good with full scale updates.

Here’s my issue with Shyvana: what does she do? What’s unique about her?

This is largely riot's fault and how they kept changing her kit and the jungle. She used to be able to invade and duel pretty well. You built the AS jungle item, then bruiser stuff. Riot got rid of that ability and now she's an AFK farmer when riot doesn't like afk farmers, she can't invade, she can't duel, and they made it so AP mage shyvana is a thing thanks to all the tweaks.

Another thing I think that hurt her is league of mobility creep. She used to be able to stick to targets. Nowadays your only hope for that is either buying a frozen mallet or a trinity force. Would you buy either of those items on Ahri, Lux, or Syndra? It's like live balance put Shyvana's tweaks in the hands of a 2 headed Hellen Keller.

Shyvana’s biggest problem is that you have made her so reliant on just being a stat stick. Back in season 3 and 4 when she was one of the best top laners, riot constantly nerfed her because she was a champion you couldn’t really kite while you couldn’t ignore either.

This is something riot also has to consider if they want to rework her: is lane shyvana going to be a thing again or not.

In fact, they’ve further reinforced that with her passive, which is one of the worst passives in the game: get stats for killing dragons. So she doesn’t even truly have control over the stats she can potentially get, making it even more mundane.

If riot was smart, her passive would act a lot more like Threshs: large jungle mobs have a chance to give her a stat buff for armor/mr. I tried suggesting that once, but it was downvoted like crazy. Requiring a champ who can't really gank or 1v1 to take dragons is a risky proposition. You have to do try and sneak it and the other guy knows that you will and can deal with you.

Listen, Shyvana has one of the coolest potentials in league.

I'm not sure riot can do anything about it because you forgot to mention Shyvana's real problem. She's a power farming AFK jungler in a game that doesn't want that to be a thing anymore and wants games to end quickly. She can't even put a timer on the game like nasus, veigar, kayle, kog, or vanye. So she's only really good for that first teamfight or two, but she can't really be good because of jungle timers and the fact she can't really gank or invade.

Shyvana's problem is she doesn't fit into the game anymore and the devs can't even see how badly they've messed her up both directly and indirectly.

Edit: I forgot to mention that she has a really weird build path when going the traditional route: she wants AS because her skills scale off of it but she wants bruiser stuff because that's what her role needs. There aren't really the items to support that playstyle outside of trinity force, which is expensive. That's another thing riot is going to have to look at.

Illabethe2 votes

What the f are you even smoking?

Dragon Form E is easily the strongest skill shot spell in the game..... It hits with three individual damage ratios that all scale.....

Dragon form Q is an aoe cone auto attack that applies On hit effects TWICE to all caught in the aoe......

Tickles? She almost erases in a single skill.

She's also a 2% Pick rate, which is actually pretty high considering all the champions in the game.

True Garen4 votes

{quoted}

What the f are you even smoking?

Dragon Form E is easily the strongest skill shot spell in the game..... It hits with three individual damage ratios that all scale.....

Dragon form Q is an aoe cone auto attack that applies On hit effects TWICE to all caught in the aoe......

Tickles? She almost erases in a single skill.

She's also a 2% Pick rate, which is actually pretty high considering all the champions in the game.

Yeah. If they would just pay attention and fix a small collection of minor gripes, I'd call that a VGU and thank you.

Increase the value of a Dragonborn stack to equivalent 300g ... like... add 5AP or 5 Tenacity to the stack. (Or both!) Passive Scaling on Elder Dragons W Scaling on total AD Gather Rage while dead

Move onto the next champion, thanks.

what? wanna give us something extra? Let W MS apply for the entire duration, and let W proc on structures.

"VGU" is scary.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

You ever tried to play an adc against nocturne hatedaddy?

Because I fucking despise this no-counterplay champion that requieres me to never ever be alone and him having vision on me else It's just a straight ticket to hell with nothing I can do about it.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

You ever tried to play an adc against nocturne hatedaddy?

Because I fucking despise this no-counterplay champion that requieres me to never ever be alone and him having vision on me else It's just a straight ticket to hell with nothing I can do about it.

Bro, how is that different than any other assassin? Granted, they can’t ult you from a screen away but the overall theme still holds true. And nocturne isn’t going to insta burst you either like Rengar or Talon, so even then you have an opportunity to get away. Moreover, you just said in your own statement what you have to do in order to nullify his ult. And as someone that has played quite a bit of nocturne, nothing is more frustrating than an ADC that stays with their team! But his ult still has good utility, split push potential and even objective potential. So I wouldn’t say it’s feast or famine either.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

Bro, how is that different than any other assassin?

The difference is that against an assassin (with the exception of Talon maybe) you can track the movement of any of them You can know where zed is on the map, and as an adc that's important because it allows you to farm while avoiding them

against nocturne it's impossible

Granted, they can’t ult you from a screen away but the overall theme still holds true.

that's A HUGE DIFFERENCE

And nocturne isn’t going to insta burst you either like Rengar or Talon

lol yes he can Play against nocturne as Ashe and your point of view will change.

And as someone that has played quite a bit of nocturne, nothing is more frustrating than an ADC that stays with their team!

in high elo unless the adc is busted af they pretty much need 3 items to come online, by comming online it means having the same impact than the mage in the midlane who can until then single handly win the teamfight.

how do you get items? you have no choice but to farm the sidelane and midlane adcs with supports get the midlane after laning phase while other roles shove the sidelanes and try to get picks

if the enemy team has nocturne, then the adc is either paralyzed because he cannot move without getting bursted, or cannot commit to farm any lane at all.

There is a reason that atm on EUW the best junglers are nocturne players

https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=agurin

chipndip11 votes

Here's the thing, HD: Volibear is the most deserving of a relaunch since there's literally never been a time where Volibear was legitimately good in a meta for very long, unlike Shyvanna.

HOWEVER, Squad5 is in charge of the rework so here's hoping he works on Mundo, who requires the least work out of all of them.

Linna Excel2 votes

Whenever shyvana became meta riot made sure she didn't stay there long.

Salron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-05-10T18:17:48.296+0000)

Whenever shyvana became meta riot made sure she didn't stay there long.

Yeah because Shyvana being meta is AWFUL for the game and you don't need to play her to understand how unhealthy of a champion she is which is why she needs the rework

Abibyama II1 votes

{quoted}

HOWEVER, Squad5 is in charge of the rework so here's hoping he works on Mundo, who requires the least work out of all of them.

Is this some top secret insider info? Because I can't find anything about this anywhere unless I'm blind.

Anyways, you can still fuck it up even if it takes the least amount of work, and Squad5 is the master of gimmicks so he would probably add a gimmick or two and be done with it

Edit: the only thing I found so far was Spideraxe asking Reav3 if it's Squad5 who's going to handle it or not

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P2iA81NO,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-05-10T19:41:43.752+0000)

Is this some top secret insider info? Because I can't find anything about this anywhere unless I'm blind.

Anyways, you can still fuck it up even if it takes the least amount of work, and Squad5 is the master of gimmicks so he would probably add a gimmick or two and be done with it

Edit: the only thing I found so far was Spideraxe asking Reav3 if it's Squad5 who's going to handle it or not

Moody P told me Squad5 would be on it.

I absolutely DO NOT like his track record. None of his champs feel all that good in the game. Ornn's...ok? Ivern's horrible. Sylas is a mistake.

Salron1 votes
Abibyama II1 votes

Exactly.

He focuses on the gimmicks so much more than making an actual good kit. It is a common problem between the devs he's the number one when it comes to this

VoraciousX1 votes

I voted for Shyvana, I really think Fiddlesticks needed it more, but I'd love a more dragon-like take on Shyvana. I also think Mundo needed it more than both Fiddlesticks and Shyvana, but all I saw from their ideas on Mundo was "Buff Mundo", instead of making him less of a stat check champion, which all health regen champions are.

theChibiTina1 votes

Honestly the only reason shyvana isn't doing well is because Jungle is bad for hard farming junglers right now. If they can't gank extensively to snowball their laners, they don't do well right now. Early game, heavy gank junglers and junglers that can funnel are what's meta right now. Shyvana doesn't really do either of those. She doesn't have a lot of gank potential before level 6, so the only thing she has going for her right now is that she's good at taking dragons, but even that doesn't help if the enemy lanes are being snowballed and they keep vision on dragon pit to come and knock you out if you dare to show up there. Late game junglers just don't function well right now because of all the jungle nerfs.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Honestly the only reason shyvana isn't doing well is because Jungle is bad for hard farming junglers right now.

With how Riot's running the game, this isn't a "right now" thing. This is indefinite.

Also, Karthus jg is doing fine. Nunu jg is doing fine (in solo queue). It's not hard and fast farming that's down right now. It's just Shyvanna.

theChibiTina1 votes

Nunu jg is doing well because his snowball is a fantastic ganking tool. Karthus jg is doing okay at best and the best thing he has going for him is at level 6 he can pretty much gank all lanes at once. lol. Karthus and Shyvana are both sitting at roughly a 50% winrate and Karthus actually loses to shyvana having only a 47% winrate into her.

True Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Honestly the only reason shyvana isn't doing well is because Jungle is bad for hard farming junglers right now. If they can't gank extensively to snowball their laners, they don't do well right now. Early game, heavy gank junglers and junglers that can funnel are what's meta right now. Shyvana doesn't really do either of those. She doesn't have a lot of gank potential before level 6, so the only thing she has going for her right now is that she's good at taking dragons, but even that doesn't help if the enemy lanes are being snowballed and they keep vision on dragon pit to come and knock you out if you dare to show up there. Late game junglers just don't function well right now because of all the jungle nerfs.

Shyvana does well vs tanks. When tanks come back into the meta again then Shyvana also shines.

theChibiTina1 votes

I wish tanks would be meta again. I would love to have more defensive options. I'm sick of there being nothing, but damage.

KFCeytron1 votes

Nothing wrong with Mundo, sure, other than a spammable long-range slow that deals %hp damage with a minimum value, and an ult that's so broken that it's literally balanced around always being countered with Grievous Wounds. And two spells that are barely visible and yet actually quite strong. Or they would be, if Mundo's kit was allowed to be viable, which it isn't, because it's a travesty.

Rock MD1 votes

Volibear needs a ton of work as well. He's got all the same problems except, unlike Shyvana who was good for a season (season 4), Volibear was literally never good. That's why I think he should get it more than Shyvana. He has the same visuals issues, the same kit issues, he just sucks.

If you're describing the experience from an outsider's perspective though, the kit that is by far the worst to play against and around would be Fiddlesticks, followed by Nocturne. Nocturne is just bland overall and feels unsatisfying while Fiddlesticks is an absolute nightmare to play against.

LordGeovanni1 votes

shyvanna needs a new E

More from Gameplay

More by HateDaddy