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@Riot, Sona has 49% win rate in diamond+ and you're nerfing enchanters items in next patch

D357R0Y3R··12 votes·926 views

Surely, isn't it the greatest time to finally give Sona a vgu?

her kit lacks of visible counterplay, is impossible to use against experimented players, lacks of any decision making ability except passive that will mostly be Q everytime due to how her cooldowns are, Even Janna can make some skilled moves that makes players different, while sona does always the same thing over and over

You know Swain is getting a vgu, and for a good reason but Sona's kit is way worse than Swain's kit, i don't see why we wouldn't work on Sona to make her healthy if we do it for Swain

36 Comments

LostFr0st2 votes

I think it would be really nice if Sona received an update.

Maybe ask in today's quick gameplay thoughts about her? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/zTYEf4er-quick-gameplay-thoughts-december-8

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

I think it would be really nice if Sona received an update.

Maybe ask in today's quick gameplay thoughts about her? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/zTYEf4er-quick-gameplay-thoughts-december-8

He ignored literally everyone that brought her up, which is similar to how they did it during that patch 7.24 play tester discussion until they finally bothered when they started getting flooded with questions.

It's a shame, but it's understandable (somewhat). Riot's handling of the champ, on top of some people's rabid reactions towards changes to the champ...it makes a wildfire literally EVERY time. Not a damn soul has learned from it and it's actually tragic.

LostFr0st2 votes

{quoted}

He ignored literally everyone that brought her up, which is similar to how they did it during that patch 7.24 play tester discussion until they finally bothered when they started getting flooded with questions.

lol. ikr.

It's a shame, but it's understandable (somewhat). Riot's handling of the champ, on top of some people's rabid reactions towards changes to the champ...it makes a wildfire literally EVERY time. Not a damn soul has learned from it and it's actually tragic.

You're right there. It is also very tragic. One side needs to give in eventually though, but I won't hold my breath ^^"

Maybe the changes to enchanter items will make it more obvious that they need to sharpen Sona's gameplay identity.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

{quoted}

You're right there. It is also very tragic. One side needs to give in eventually though, but I won't hold my breath ^^"

Maybe the changes to enchanter items will make it more obvious that they need to sharpen Sona's gameplay identity.

Realistically, neither side needs to give in. Rito doesn't need to acknowledge complaints; they can openly choose to continue losing face, customers & revenue. Players WILL NOT give in, because they're the ones who WANT change. At this point, I don't think any of us are holding our breaths anymore. Three years was too long, it's clear that time just isn't a factor anymore.

Thing is, Rito already knows Sona's identity is shot. It couldn't be any more obvious to them, they're the ones with the best numbers. The best analysts and statisticians, because they admittedly intentionally HIDE all the numbers & figures from us. Rito knows Sona's been hot garbage since the first rework. If the Forbidden Idol nerfs make the problems more apparent to anybody, it'll be to the bronzes that openly compare Sona to Soraka. The people who are openly comparing the WORST heal-support in the game, to the PREMIERE heal-support in the game, as if the two have EVER been comparable, even going all the way back to season 3, when Sona actually was a legit Tier 1 support. Not the false-propaganda "meta" support that is being intentionally dis-informed now.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T05:39:11.278+0000)

Realistically, neither side needs to give in. Rito doesn't need to acknowledge complaints; they can openly choose to continue losing face, customers & revenue. Players WILL NOT give in, because they're the ones who WANT change. At this point, I don't think any of us are holding our breaths anymore.

It's still sad. I disagree that no side need to give in though. The players need to let go of the rage from the first rework.

Three years was too long, it's clear that time just isn't a factor anymore.

It has only been 1.5 years since they tried tweaking Sona. I agree that time doesn't seem to be a factor anymore.

Thing is, Rito already knows Sona's identity is shot. It couldn't be any more obvious to them, they're the ones with the best numbers. The best analysts and statisticians, because they admittedly intentionally HIDE all the numbers & figures from us.

I don't think giving the numbers would make it better. You and I may be able to read data, but we both know most people cannot. Players who actually like Sona will just say that they rigged the data and the fight will still continue.

Rito knows Sona's been hot garbage since the first rework.

This right here is the problem. People seem to forget that back then her auras were the size of Texas. She could buff her whole team even if the Sona player was really bad, so of course she was strong.

If the Forbidden Idol nerfs make the problems more apparent to anybody, it'll be to the bronzes that openly compare Sona to Soraka. The people who are openly comparing the WORST heal-support in the game, to the PREMIERE heal-support in the game, as if the two have EVER been comparable, even going all the way back to season 3, when Sona actually was a legit Tier 1 support. Not the false-propaganda "meta" support that is being intentionally dis-informed now.

Sona shouldn't be compared to anyone really, she's kinda in a strange spot.

She needs changes to make her less overall powerful but more powerful if played well. I have a suggestion I'd like an honest opinion on:

Maybe they should make her a double-cast champion? --hear me out... Where she's get an empowered by R+casting and crescendo would be RR.

If they shift Karma more towards original Karma then there would be room to shift Sona more towards original Sona without her auras always being huge. They'd be huge when she empowers them with R but not all the time.

This would increase her skill ceiling and open her up for base stat buffs and buffs from skill expression.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

Those are some... interesting opinions and suggestions. Let's make it clear though: the reason Sona isn't allowed to be playable is her R passive. No support should ever have their basic abilities' strength trapped in their R ranks. This **intentionally **failed design should have never made it onto paper, yet somehow not only did it reach Live, it wasn't scrapped in the 2nd rework and it was emphasized even further.

How can we not cry foul and think Rito is intentionally rigging data, when they're intentionally creating unbalanceable kits? The fallacy that original Sona was an aura bot, was falsely created by bronze players and Fearless, who publicly stated that he had neither played, nor understood Sona's kit. He fabricated the "aura bot" excuse after a single glance of her kit in a vacuum, with no experience of how the character is played. He is a jungle main that had never played Sona before that rework, this just shows the inherent problem with Rito's company policy of letting their employees take on projects of their own choice, without management's approval.

Sona players cannot and imo, should not ever let their rage from the first rework subside. It's that anger that fuels their cause for seeking change.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T00:13:50.709+0000)

Those are some... interesting opinions and suggestions.

But what do you think about the suggestion.

Chew it up if it's bad, point out what's useful. It has undergone several iterations through discussing with Sona mains here and there through the boards. I'm trying to find a sweet spot to post on r/Sona. But only once it's ready, since I'll likely only get one chance in the metaphorical lion's den.

Any guidance or information other than "revert fully to season 2" would be appreciated. I wish to help bring her to the future, not remain in the past.

Let's make it clear though: the reason Sona isn't allowed to be playable is her R passive. No support should ever have their basic abilities' strength trapped in their R ranks. This **intentionally **failed design should have never made it onto paper, yet somehow not only did it reach Live, it wasn't scrapped in the 2nd rework and it was emphasized even further.

I don't think a support's kit should be tied to R ranks either. It's just silly for a low exp role to have that...

it wasn't scrapped in the 2nd rework and it was emphasized even further.

Not sure the second rework/gameplay update should have happened. I do believe the designer meant well in giving her attention though.

However I also believe that, much like Shen, she required more work than the update allowed for. Since it still gave her some QoL as her current thematic, it went through.

How can we not cry foul and think Rito is intentionally rigging data, when they're intentionally creating unbalanceable kits? The fallacy that original Sona was an aura bot, was falsely created by bronze players and Fearless, who publicly stated that he had neither played, nor understood Sona's kit. He fabricated the "aura bot" excuse after a single glance of her kit in a vacuum, with no experience of how the character is played. He is a jungle main that had never played Sona before that rework, this just shows the inherent problem with Rito's company policy of letting their employees take on projects of their own choice, without management's approval.

Let's put aside the Rioter's played role for a sec and look at Sona's kit back then.

Her aura's were 1000 range. That's 115% of a Janna ult in area (Janna ult is 875). Legit she couldn't miss. BUT yes, it's REALLY fun to buff the whole team. I agree. Knocking it down back then from 1000 to 350 was extreme though (now it's 400). And sucked that fun from the kit; that fun is still gone.

Sona players cannot and imo, should not ever let their rage from the first rework subside. It's that anger that fuels their cause for seeking change.

I'd like to somehow get them to use that to fuel a new proposal for a rework actually^^" Maybe proposing the change and warming Riot up to it would be more effective.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

But what do you think about the suggestion.

Chew it up if it's bad, point out what's useful. It has undergone several iterations through discussing with Sona mains here and there through the boards. I'm trying to find a sweet spot to post on r/Sona. But only once it's ready, since I'll likely only get one chance in the metaphorical lion's den.

The concept feels recycled, as you mentioned yourself. Firstly, it hinges on your initial idea of Karma abandoning her kit in favor of returning to her original kit. Then you're slapping Karma's kit onto Sona and returning her auras at a lower range.

I said what I meant, the idea is interesting. I don't think it either good or bad, especially since Rito already has a habit of recycling their own ideas. In the same patch, they scrapped Ahri's identity of "Land Charm, get rewarded" then handed it to Fizz: "Land Fish, get rewarded." They scrapped Soraka's "increase healing by target's missing health" passive, then put it onto Sona's heal later on. Difference being, Sona's healing is crap and they ALSO nerfed it even further to "compensate" for this addition, when it should have just been added on.

Without further details, I don't know how many of Sona's problems are answered in this concept. You're trying to increase her skill expression, that's fine and dandy, but that is a usability issue, not a viability issue? How are you going to fix the actual inherent problems in her kit? To list the most prominent issues with Sona in order of most-hindering to least:

  • Trapped basic-ability power in R ranks
  • Complete lack of pre-6 hard CC
  • Terrible base numbers
  • Complete lack of mobility
  • Lack of durability

The most serious problem with Sona right now is that 99% of her power budget is trapped in R ranks. This is the sole reason why she has been a troll pick since her first rework. The reason she's the weakest laner of the support class and why she's unplayable in professional games.

Hard CC is her 2nd-most pressing issue. As the only dedicated support in the game w/o hard CC pre-6, she inherently has a distinct disadvantage against literally everyone. Everyone. It doesn't have to be much, even Soraka has a root, although some would argue a Silence is still more powerful than a basic slow, which is the only thing Sona has. Which requires her passive. Which requires 3 spell charges. Which requires her to perform a basic attack to proc. ...and have her most-recent spell also just happen to be her spell with the longest fucking cooldown on her kit. Which actually, I'd like to add a 6th problem to Sona's list of problems:

  • Lack of flow in ability usage(namely, their CDs are different lengths. Which they should NOT be.)

Once Sona's R passive is deleted from her kit, her terrible base numbers can be fixed. Depending on the hard CC she receives, she may or may not need any major change to mobility, other than +10 base MS. As for her durability: this just needs to be improved. Nerfing her armor, the multiple times they've done it have all been unjustified. Sona originally had low armor, cause she could instantly get +6 or so from casting W, but when Sona stopped having auras in her kit, rather than compensating her for being more delicate than tissue paper, they nerfed her armor & HP. Multiple times. Actually makes zero fucking sense. The lack of flow in her kit is obvious: just put her CDs all at 7/8, whatever suits you.

PS: Sona's original 7-second cooldowns on her abilities were meant to represent the 7 notes on a musical scale, from A to G. Not that Fearless gave a fuck about Sona's identity when he butchered it.

Any guidance or information other than "revert fully to season 2" would be appreciated. I wish to help bring her to the future, not remain in the past.

You want Karma to return to her original kit. You said you want Sona to regain her original kit and use auras again, but with Karma's current kit replacing her actives. It seems I'm not the only one looking for reverts here. Maybe I haven't been clear enough, maybe you're being too narrow-minded when trying to understand me. When I say Sona should be reverted, I'm obviously not suggesting she remain exactly as-was and never receive any changes. You don't seem to realize, what you're suggesting to me here. The initial idea you've pitched me. That's literally no different from reverting Sona, in fact that's exactly what you're suggesting: a full revert and then restarting from scratch, without bastardizing her identity the way Fearless intentionally did. The very thing you're so adamant about arguing against, is the exact thing you're suggesting. So maybe you should take a look in the mirror and realize you need to stop attacking other Sona players for suggesting the same thing as you, albeit worded ever-so-slightly differently.

I don't think a support's kit should be tied to R ranks either. It's just silly for a low exp role to have that...

Indeed.

Not sure the second rework/gameplay update should have happened. I do believe the designer meant well in giving her attention though.

I actually don't think RicklessAbandon meant to do what was in Sona's best interests. Rather than reverting her and starting over (like I'm suggesting, like you're suggesting,) he continued with a kit Rito knew to be a failed design and he tried emphasizing that failure further. Rather than asking himself,"Is this right? Is this not what's wrong with her?" He said,"Maybe we just didn't go all-in on the idea hard enough." That's sheeple thinking. He mindlessly followed the person before, telling himself,"Well maybe I can do it better, if I follow the exact same mistakes Fearless made, shoe-to-footprint. Step on the same traps and follow down the same dead ends and fake corridors."

Let's put aside the Rioter's played role for a sec and look at Sona's kit back then.

Her aura's were 1000 range. That's 115% of a Janna ult in area (Janna ult is 875). Legit she couldn't miss. BUT yes, it's REALLY fun to buff the whole team. I agree. Knocking it down back then from 1000 to 350 was extreme though (now it's 400). And sucked that fun from the kit; that fun is still gone.

I'd like to somehow get them to use that to fuel a new proposal for a rework actually^^" Maybe proposing the change and warming Riot up to it would be more effective.

Sona's auras were 1000 range, because they needed to be 1000 range. That distance isn't nearly as far as you want to think it is. Morg & Thresh can engage pre-6 from outside this range. Leona can engage post-6 from outside this range. Caitlyn can shoot cupcake-addicts from outside this range. Yes, it is a radius, so theoretically if she were in the middle of a teamfight, she would reach in both directions, but that is such a specific situation that it's just a nonsequitor.

I'd like to point out, Fearless originally made her lingering actives 300 range, they were only just increased to 350 right before she hit the Live Server. Even her current lingering actives, at 400 units barely count as "ranged" spells. They're roughly on-par with the lowest ranges in the game (ex. Graves, Gnar, Urgot,) while just barely being longer than the longest melee-range spells: Aatrox, Illaoi, Hecarim and matter-of-fact, Ekko's melee-range spell at 425 is longer than Sona's bubble-range.

Meanwhile, nearly every other ranged spell in the entire support class is 550 units or higher, most of them being over double Sona's bubble-range. Sona needs long-range auras to work, 900-units, maybe 850 if her auras returned as-were. If they are to be any shorter than that, 650 or 700 units per-say, they'd require larger numbers than before. You seem to be forgetting how weak Sona's auras were: 20 AD/AP at max rank is lower than a Pickaxe & Amp Tome. 10 armor/MR is lower, even than a cloth armor and pre-buffed mantle... Not to mention she could only have one or the other or the 3rd, applied at any given time; paying mind to the 1-second linger. Not to mention that not everyone is able to benefit from every stat.

In spite of the delusions everyone loves to propagandize, just having a Sona did not "automatically" win you a teamfight. Aura-bot Sona was NEVER a viable strategy and you never saw it outside of Bronze-League. It just wasn't a thing. Furthermore, Sona wasn't an "auto-fill" support, either. She was played near-exclusively by genuine Sona Support players. Yet somehow, these facts have all been buried under years of fallacies, misnomers and false information by Rito(which I will admit hasn't **all **been intentional.) Did you know Hymn of Valor's actual range is 700 units? The wiki & League sites' numbers are both listed incorrectly, they were mistakenly altered during the shadow nerfs(plural) reversion. Furthermore, the "prioritizes enemy champions" range is actually only 600 units? This is pertinent information, yet it's missing from official sources. That is a serious problem & clear oversight.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T07:18:16.984+0000)

The concept feels recycled, as you mentioned yourself. Firstly, it hinges on your initial idea of Karma abandoning her kit in favor of returning to her original kit. Then you're slapping Karma's kit onto Sona and returning her auras at a lower range.

I would like them both to return to their original sentiments, as they were both ripped from them. Karma's identity used to be more like bait master. Her being low on health meant good and bad, but must have been hard to balance. Damage vs self healing and the AP it gave. Now she's team enchanter #3 or w/e.

Sona's aura ranges would be increased when empowered, but stay as-is when not empowered.

I said what I meant, the idea is interesting. I don't think it either good or bad, especially since Rito already has a habit of recycling their own ideas. In the same patch, they scrapped Ahri's identity of "Land Charm, get rewarded" then handed it to Fizz: "Land Fish, get rewarded." They scrapped Soraka's "increase healing by target's missing health" passive, then put it onto Sona's heal later on. Difference being, Sona's healing is crap and they ALSO nerfed it even further to "compensate" for this addition, when it should have just been added on.

Without further details, I don't know how many of Sona's problems are answered in this concept. You're trying to increase her skill expression, that's fine and dandy, but that is a usability issue, not a viability issue? How are you going to fix the actual inherent problems in her kit? To list the most prominent issues with Sona in order of most-hindering to least:

  • Trapped basic-ability power in R ranks
  • Complete lack of pre-6 hard CC
  • Terrible base numbers
  • Complete lack of mobility
  • Lack of durability

The most serious problem with Sona right now is that 99% of her power budget is trapped in R ranks. This is the sole reason why she has been a troll pick since her first rework. The reason she's the weakest laner of the support class and why she's unplayable in professional games.

From my conversations so far people kept bringing up viability at higher elos and R ranks. It's nice there seems to be a rough consensus.

Hard CC is her 2nd-most pressing issue. As the only dedicated support in the game w/o hard CC pre-6, she inherently has a distinct disadvantage against literally everyone. Everyone. It doesn't have to be much, even Soraka has a root, although some would argue a Silence is still more powerful than a basic slow, which is the only thing Sona has. Which requires her passive. Which requires 3 spell charges. Which requires her to perform a basic attack to proc. ...and have her most-recent spell also just happen to be her spell with the longest fucking cooldown on her kit.

Yes, she needs a hard cc. The three cc options which thematically fit are: silence, root, and maybe charm.

Which actually, I'd like to add a 6th problem to Sona's list of problems:

  • Lack of flow in ability usage(namely, their CDs are different lengths. Which they should NOT be.)

It's exciting that this one came up. I'm sorry if it seems I'm somewhere else, I'm really not. But there's overlap with other Sonas and well... it's exciting <3

Once Sona's R passive is deleted from her kit, her terrible base numbers can be fixed. Depending on the hard CC she receives, she may or may not need any major change to mobility, other than +10 base MS. As for her durability: this just needs to be improved. Nerfing her armor, the multiple times they've done it have all been unjustified. Sona originally had low armor, cause she could instantly get +6 or so from casting W, but when Sona stopped having auras in her kit, rather than compensating her for being more delicate than tissue paper, they nerfed her armor & HP. Multiple times. Actually makes zero fucking sense.

To buff base stats they would likely need to make the bonuses (HP regain, MS, etc) conditional for Sona, as they are most likely counting W spam as part of hp/5 and E ms as positioning opportunities thus the lower base ms.

Would removing some unconditional buffs on non-empowered cast in exchange for base stats be wrong or?

The lack of flow in her kit is obvious: just put her CDs all at 7/8, whatever suits you.

Yes, I see that's a rather unanimous issue so far.

PS: Sona's original 7-second cooldowns on her abilities were meant to represent the 7 notes on a musical scale, from A to G. Not that Fearless gave a fuck about Sona's identity when he butchered it.

I was not aware of the sentimentality of the 7 but I appreciate the note.

You want Karma to return to her original kit. You said you want Sona to regain her original kit and use auras again, but with Karma's current kit replacing her actives. It seems I'm not the only one looking for reverts here. Maybe I haven't been clear enough, maybe you're being too narrow-minded when trying to understand me. When I say Sona should be reverted, I'm obviously not suggesting she remain exactly as-was and never receive any changes. You don't seem to realize, what you're suggesting to me here. The initial idea you've pitched me. That's literally no different from reverting Sona, in fact that's exactly what you're suggesting: a full revert and then restarting from scratch, without bastardizing her identity the way Fearless intentionally did. The very thing you're so adamant about arguing against, is the exact thing you're suggesting.

I only want the cast paradigm. Using 4 keys to play is smoother. It's the same one Leblanc, Rengar, Karma, and others use. Maybe mentioning Karma was wrong, but I feel the playerbase sentiment is similar between the two. Maybe it was was a bad idea to bring up, but it's worth to get feedback.

So maybe you should take a look in the mirror and realize you need to stop attacking other Sona players for suggesting the same thing as you, albeit worded ever-so-slightly differently.

Not attacking Sona players. I've been having long discussions with many Sona's on the boards about their favourite parts about Sona and what they want to 100% be on the kit if they had the power to do so:

Boiled down to:

  1. Hard cc pre-6
  2. Skill expression so she's viable in Diamond 2+
  3. Unlock the R rank restraints
  4. Give her base stats/ big auras somewhere

Indeed.

I actually don't think RicklessAbandon meant to do what was in Sona's best interests. Rather than reverting her and starting over (like I'm suggesting, like you're suggesting,) he continued with a kit Rito knew to be a failed design and he tried emphasizing that failure further. Rather than asking himself,"Is this right? Is this not what's wrong with her?" He said,"Maybe we just didn't go all-in on the idea hard enough." That's sheeple thinking. He mindlessly followed the person before, telling himself,"Well maybe I can do it better, if I follow the exact same mistakes Fearless made, shoe-to-footprint. Step on the same traps and follow down the same dead ends and fake corridors.&quot:

He didn't have the budget to do what she actually needed (like Shen, Skarner, Mord.). They did Sona when they were still balancing update sizes. At least we know the feedback is noted now at the very least.

----continued in separate comment.

LostFr0st1 votes

Sona's auras were 1000 range, because they needed to be 1000 range. That distance isn't nearly as far as you want to think it is. Morg & Thresh can engage pre-6 from outside this range. Leona can engage post-6 from outside this range. Caitlyn can shoot cupcake-addicts from outside this range. Yes, it is a radius, so theoretically if she were in the middle of a teamfight, she would reach in both directions, but that is such a specific situation that it's just a nonsequitor.

Just saying 1000 is too big to have around her all the time. There are "breaths" in between where those champs don't affect stuff 1000 units away. Also, since it's "her zone," idk if (as an enemy) I'd want to be forced by default to always fight her and her allies while they are buffed by Sona. Enemies will start complaining about the aura ranges again and they will get nerfed again.

I'd like to point out, Fearless originally made her lingering actives 300 range, they were only just increased to 350 right before she hit the Live Server. Even her current lingering actives, at 400 units barely count as "ranged" spells. They're roughly on-par with the lowest ranges in the game (ex. Graves, Gnar, Urgot,) while just barely being longer than the longest melee-range spells: Aatrox, Illaoi, Hecarim and matter-of-fact, Ekko's melee-range spell at 425 is longer than Sona's bubble-range.

I realize that. It's pretty sad. I appreciate the comparisons too.

Meanwhile, nearly every other ranged spell in the entire support class is 550 units or higher, most of them being over double Sona's bubble-range. Sona needs long-range auras to work, 900-units, maybe 850 if her auras returned as-were. If they are to be any shorter than that, 650 or 700 units per-say, they'd require larger numbers than before. You seem to be forgetting how weak Sona's auras were: 20 AD/AP at max rank is lower than a Pickaxe & Amp Tome. 10 armor/MR is lower, even than a cloth armor and pre-buffed mantle... Not to mention she could only have one or the other or the 3rd, applied at any given time; paying mind to the 1-second linger. Not to mention that not everyone is able to benefit from every stat.

The problem is counterplay and skill expression here.

Need a way for enemies to pressure Sona into not being in buffing range. AND/OR Need a way for bad Sonas to miss/mess up.

That's legit the two issues with big auras. Solving that through cds (not wanted) or empowered was what seemed like a good option, but I'm asking Sona players that question.

If there's a solution I'm overlooking throw it out there =)

In spite of the delusions everyone loves to propagandize, just having a Sona did not "automatically" win you a teamfight. Aura-bot Sona was NEVER a viable strategy and you never saw it outside of Bronze-League. It just wasn't a thing. Furthermore, Sona wasn't an "auto-fill" support, either. She was played near-exclusively by genuine Sona Support players. Yet somehow, these facts have all been buried under years of fallacies, misnomers and false information by Rito(which I will admit hasn't **all **been intentional.) Did you know Hymn of Valor's actual range is 700 units? The wiki & League sites' numbers are both listed incorrectly, they were mistakenly altered during the shadow nerfs(plural) reversion. Furthermore, the "prioritizes enemy champions" range is actually only 600 units? This is pertinent information, yet it's missing from official sources. That is a serious problem & clear oversight.

If you want I can log them as bugs if it's not in the tooltip. I'll send in repro steps and everything. I don't appreciate shadow nerfs either.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

Just saying 1000 is too big to have around her all the time. There are "breaths" in between where those champs don't affect stuff 1000 units away. Also, since it's "her zone," idk if (as an enemy) I'd want to be forced by default to always fight her and her allies while they are buffed by Sona. Enemies will start complaining about the aura ranges again and they will get nerfed again.

Except this isn't unique. When I'm vs. a Nami, I don't want to be forced outside of her Aqua Prison range at all times. Against Zed, Katarina or Talon, I don't want to be forced outside of their entire vision range at all times. Against tanks & bruisers, I don't want to be forced outside of their engage range.

Every champion has a "zone" that they always force enemies to respect & play around. Part of the point I was making: Thresh & Morg have larger zoning ranges than Sona did. They miss the skillshot, they lose that zone for a few seconds, sure, but their zones are far more punishing than Sona's was. I don't automatically take damage for being in an enemy Sona's 1k units. I'm not threatened by that zone in any way shape or form. It's only if her allies are in that zone and even then, I'm forced to respect their zoning, not Sona's.

Furthermore yet, let's assume she's level 9 with max Q for +20 AD/AP. When is that AD/AP going to matter? When I'm behind? No, I'm already behind. When I'm ahead? No, I'm ahead. It's only when we're relatively even that it becomes the tipping point. Having said that, what else did Sona even have besides a few meager stat boosts? Her damage was mediocre, to compensate for the free AD/AP she gave herself. Her healing was only marginally better than it is now. Sure, she had a strong initiation, but even Crescendo has turned into a shitty spell now. Ignoring the shadow nerfs to Crescendo's hit box, the spell itself is antiquated. It's grown weak as power creep has introduced stronger ultimates into bot lane. Nami has a giant knock-up followed by a massive stun, which GREATLY speeds up her whole team. Bard has a giant AoE stasis. Morg has a large slow followed by a stun. Heck, even Summon Tibbers is just a clearly upgraded version of Crescendo.

What do you want? Her aura range lowered to 850? Have her aura numbers buffed, but drastically lower its radius to 650/700? Either Sona gets long-range auras or strong auras, she has to have one or the other. Being 1k units didn't make them strong, you weren't being zoned by Sona just because her aura range was 1k. Her personal range was 700 at most, still is 700 at most. If she's standing so far back that she's buffing allies at 1k range; that meant she herself wasn't contributing. No Power Chords, no Crescendo, not even a body to block skill shots. "Aura bot" Sona was a hindrance to her team, not a help. That's why you didn't see it outside of bronze, it wasn't a real strategy.

The problem is counterplay and skill expression here.

Need a way for enemies to pressure Sona into not being in buffing range. AND/OR

The only way you could prevent this, is if you made her kit melee-range. Which it already is. Which we are already here stating that it should not be.

Does Lulu need a way to pressure her from shielding allies? Janna? Karma? Does Nami need a way to pressure her from healing allies? Soraka? The point about enchanters is that they're able to help allies without themselves being in the fray, particularly after they've been poked down. This isn't unique to Sona, why is she always the one being singled out for characteristics that she inherently shares with her entire class of character? It makes no sense.

Need a way for bad Sonas to miss/mess up.

Sona already can miss/mess up. She can cast Hymn when she's not in range, burning the CD & mana for zero return. She can't control who she heals or who she damages. I would actually take a skillshot-heal like Ana's, rather than a fucking auto-target heal like Sona's. Auto-target heals are actually garbage: hence why Lili's is on a natural 2-second CD. Hence why Lili also has a 4-man Blind.

You want to replace Sona's Q active with Karma's? Fine. I don't think anybody will actually disagree with this. You're focusing too hard on the complaints by non-Sona players and not mentioning her actual problems. Skill expression isn't Sona's issue. It's what players want, but it's not her issue. It was even less of an issue on her original kit, but bronzes seem to have forgotten this fact. They seem to have forgotten that she was a professionally viable pick that held steady win rates across every elo. It wasn't until after she got reworked that she became a "bronze champion," as Ghostcrawler so elegantly called her. He didn't deny that a revert would fix her.

Solving that through cds (not wanted) or empowered was what seemed like a good option, but I'm asking Sona players that question.

If there's a solution I'm overlooking throw it out there =)

The idea of "lingering actives" wasn't necessarily wrong. It wasn't the concept that was flawed, but rather the execution of it. The kit could have worked, if the details of it were hammered out properly.

A) They decided to trap basic-ability power in R-ranks. That concept is a death sentence for a support character, it's impossible to balance and ruins their laning potential.

B) She wasn't given the range necessary of an Enchanter. If she were a fucking Leona, or Alistar, or even a Taric and had melee-range lingerings with free defense stats, it would have worked just fine. However, Sona is the squishiest-fucking character in the game. She cannot function without ranged spells, which at 400 units, they arguably are not.

C) Her numbers are actually ass. Supports need strong bases, which hers are worst-in-class. Supports do NOT need strong scalings, which actually hers are really fucking bad, even after the recent +10%AP she received. News flash: even at 6 items, Sona still doesn't usually have the 450 AP required to "compensate" for the gutting she received this patch.

D) She needs reasonable cooldowns for her kit to both function & flow properly. Fearless initially gutted all 3 of her spells' CDs by nearly 50% apiece. When players pointed out to him that this was a BAD design, he tore 2 seconds off her E and slapped it onto Q, which even then Q still had a longer CD, despite being a weaker spell than pre-rework. This also had the direct adverse affect of ruining Sona's synergy with her own passive. Her abilities no longer flowed together anymore and Power Chord suffered for it, pigeonholing players into spamming Staccato, since Hymn is the only spell with a "reasonable" cooldown. So Staccato got nerfed, despite having already been nerfed. Then it got nerfed some more. Because Sona's kit doesn't flow. She was punished, for being punished. Smh.

If you want I can log them as bugs if it's not in the tooltip. I'll send in repro steps and everything. I don't appreciate shadow nerfs either.

I'ma be honest with you. I've requested Rito to fix these problems on, I want to say 7 separate occasions? That number actually sounds too low. They always respond with some sort of fabricated excuse to avoid actually doing "work." If you can call rewriting a page "doing work."

Furthermore, if you look at Sona's patch history on the wiki, it mentions the "bug fixes" (you and I both know they were shadow nerfs) occurring in patch 4.17. The problem is that the values were misquoted. Currently it says:

Fixed a bug where the damage range was 700 instead of the intended 850.

What it should ACTUALLY say is:

Fixed a bug where the damage range was 550 instead of the intended 700.

Then of course, I believe the 600-champion priority range has been omitted ever since it was increased from 525 in an unknown patch during season 3. My attempts at finding the exact patch number to that QoL change have come back empty, but I remember it clearly, because players were complaining that it was smaller than her basic-attack range.

If you think you can have more luck having these pertinent details clarified, then by all means please do so. As I've said, my own attempts have been fruitless on nearly one dozen occasions across the years.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T15:22:52.612+0000)

Except this isn't unique. When I'm vs. a Nami, I don't want to be forced outside of her Aqua Prison range at all times. Against Zed, Katarina or Talon, I don't want to be forced outside of their entire vision range at all times. Against tanks & bruisers, I don't want to be forced outside of their engage range.

[...]

For them it's not at all times that's the thing.

I thought of another option (a good one maybe) after the next comments below were read, but the idea before was that we need times where Sona's auras are smaller, and then we can have times where the auras are huge and powerful instead of the current mediocre all the time and mediocre range.

Furthermore yet, let's assume she's level 9 with max Q for +20 AD/AP. When is that AD/AP going to matter? When I'm behind? No, I'm already behind. When I'm ahead? No, I'm ahead. It's only when we're relatively even that it becomes the tipping point. Having said that, what else did Sona even have besides a few meager stat boosts? Her damage was mediocre, to compensate for the free AD/AP she gave herself. Her healing was only marginally better than it is now. Sure, she had a strong initiation, but even Crescendo has turned into a shitty spell now. Ignoring the shadow nerfs to Crescendo's hit box, the spell itself is antiquated. It's grown weak as power creep has introduced stronger ultimates into bot lane. Nami has a giant knock-up followed by a massive stun, which GREATLY speeds up her whole team. Bard has a giant AoE stasis. Morg has a large slow followed by a stun. Heck, even Summon Tibbers is just a clearly upgraded version of Crescendo.

What do you want? Her aura range lowered to 850? Have her aura numbers buffed, but drastically lower its radius to 650/700? Either Sona gets long-range auras or strong auras, she has to have one or the other. Being 1k units didn't make them strong, you weren't being zoned by Sona just because her aura range was 1k. Her personal range was 700 at most, still is 700 at most. If she's standing so far back that she's buffing allies at 1k range; that meant she herself wasn't contributing. No Power Chords, no Crescendo, not even a body to block skill shots. [...]

The only way you could prevent this, is if you made her kit melee-range. Which it already is. Which we are already here stating that it should not be.

There is another way other than melee range.

With this she could keep the 1000 range auras:

Could make the aura not a filled-in circle, but instead a ring. Kinda like Darius Q but for allies and without the delay and it persists like Sona W does now.

If that was the case, Sona could keep long-range auras (1000) but they would still have counterplay. Only problem is that would likely make her even more positioning dependent (kinda like Sol) which she already is :/

Does Lulu need a way to pressure her from shielding allies? Janna? Karma? Does Nami need a way to pressure her from healing allies? Soraka? The point about enchanters is that they're able to help allies without themselves being in the fray, particularly after they've been poked down. This isn't unique to Sona, why is she always the one being singled out for characteristics that she inherently shares with her entire class of character? It makes no sense.

Lulu and Janna have been whacked many times, and Soraka keeps getting reworked; I don't think they've been "safe" from being singled out. Nami seems to be safe, but her original kit is from a later time than the others.

Sona already can miss/mess up. She can cast Hymn when she's not in range, burning the CD & mana for zero return. She can't control who she heals or who she damages. I would actually take a skillshot-heal like Ana's, rather than a fucking auto-target heal like Sona's. Auto-target heals are actually garbage: hence why Lili's is on a natural 2-second CD. Hence why Lili also has a 4-man Blind.

Noted.

You want to replace Sona's Q active with Karma's? Fine. I don't think anybody will actually disagree with this.

O.o WTF. No, I don't. I was asking about empowered abilities (Rengo, Karma, LB) vs single type (current Sona and most champs)

You're focusing too hard on the complaints by non-Sona players and not mentioning her actual problems. Skill expression isn't Sona's issue. It's what players want, but it's not her issue. It was even less of an issue on her original kit, but bronzes seem to have forgotten this fact. They seem to have forgotten that she was a professionally viable pick that held steady win rates across every elo. It wasn't until after she got reworked that she became a "bronze champion," as Ghostcrawler so elegantly called her. He didn't deny that a revert would fix her.

I haven't been talking to Bronze Sonas. Also haven't been talking to non-Sona players about this. So far I had only been having deeper conversations with diamond+ Sonas. I can dig the conversations up if you'd like.

The idea of "lingering actives" wasn't necessarily wrong. It wasn't the concept that was flawed, but rather the execution of it. The kit could have worked, if the details of it were hammered out properly.

A) They decided to trap basic-ability power in R-ranks. That concept is a death sentence for a support character, it's impossible to balance and ruins their laning potential.

B) She wasn't given the range necessary of an Enchanter. If she were a fucking Leona, or Alistar, or even a Taric and had melee-range lingerings with free defense stats, it would have worked just fine. However, Sona is the squishiest-fucking character in the game. She cannot function without ranged spells, which at 400 units, they arguably are not.

LOL

C) Her numbers are actually ass. Supports need strong bases, which hers are worst-in-class. Supports do NOT need strong scalings, which actually hers are really fucking bad, even after the recent +10%AP she received. News flash: even at 6 items, Sona still doesn't usually have the 450 AP required to "compensate" for the gutting she received this patch.

D) She needs reasonable cooldowns for her kit to both function & flow properly. Fearless initially gutted all 3 of her spells' CDs by nearly 50% apiece. When players pointed out to him that this was a BAD design, he tore 2 seconds off her E and slapped it onto Q, which even then Q still had a longer CD, despite being a weaker spell than pre-rework. This also had the direct adverse affect of ruining Sona's synergy with her own passive. Her abilities no longer flowed together anymore and Power Chord suffered for it, pigeonholing players into spamming Staccato, since Hymn is the only spell with a "reasonable" cooldown. So Staccato got nerfed, despite having already been nerfed. Then it got nerfed some more. Because Sona's kit doesn't flow. She was punished, for being punished. Smh.

Noted.

I'ma be honest with you. I've requested Rito to fix these problems on, I want to say 7 separate occasions? That number actually sounds too low. They always respond with some sort of fabricated excuse to avoid actually doing "work." If you can call rewriting a page "doing work."

Furthermore, if you look at Sona's patch history on the wiki, it mentions the "bug fixes" (you and I both know they were shadow nerfs) occurring in patch 4.17. The problem is that the values were misquoted. Currently it says:

What it should ACTUALLY say is:

Then of course, I believe the 600-champion priority range has been omitted ever since it was increased from 525 in an unknown patch during season 3. My attempts at finding the exact patch number to that QoL change have come back empty, but I remember it clearly, because players were complaining that it was smaller than her basic-attack range.

If you think you can have more luck having these pertinent details clarified, then by all means please do so. As I've said, my own attempts have been fruitless on nearly one dozen occasions across the years.

I shall try. Sometimes it's about the approach^^

There's nothing other than the champ priority and Hymn of Valor range bug? If they decide to fix that one they might as well fix more if there are any.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

For them it's not at all times that's the thing.

It's not "all the time" for Sona either. Yes, she can perform basic attacks, but ADC Sona has never been a mainstream strat. She has cooldowns, just like any other support. Her auras weren't a DoT effect and that seems to be what everyone tries to liken them to. While she's on CD, those auras weren't doing anything. While her allies were on CD, they did nothing. I see a Sona walk up to harass, I know she's vulnerable to counter-harass; being in that aura range when all of her spells are on CD doesn't hinder me in any way. No different from Thresh or Blitz throwing a hook, Sona loses her "zone" once she's on CD, completely regardless of that big blue circle.

Arguably, the best usage of Sona's aura was with DPS Crit ADCs. Even then, she's giving them less than a Pickaxe, a measly +20 AD only while nearby; less than they would get just from having Ornn on the same team.

There is another way other than melee range.

With this she could keep the 1000 range auras:

Could make the aura not a filled-in circle, but instead a ring. Kinda like Darius Q but for allies and without the delay and it persists like Sona W does now.

If that was the case, Sona could keep long-range auras (1000) but they would still have counterplay. Only problem is that would likely make her even more positioning dependent (kinda like Sol) which she already is :/

Players want Sona to have a higher difficulty, that's certainly what you've been vying for with your suggestion, so I don't see any problem with this.

Once again, this isn't a new suggestion either, but it's been a long time since I last saw this one. I believe it went something like this:

  • Allied units within 400 range were granted the largest bonus
  • Allied units within 850 range were granted a moderate bonus
  • Allied units within 1100 range were only granted a tiny bonus
  • The bonus Sona grants to herself is debatable, either the large or moderate

Lulu and Janna have been whacked many times, and Soraka keeps getting reworked; I don't think they've been "safe" from being singled out. Nami seems to be safe, but her original kit is from a later time than the others.

Except, the difference being, all of those have been/still are viable characters. Sona isn't allowed to be playable, she's not allowed to have a usable kit that'll let her be played in high elo or pro play. She's the Master Yi of the support class: allowed to have a toxic and unbalanceable kit that abuses the chaos of yolo queue and widespread misconceptions to ch33z wins.

Sona doesn't do damage, but bronzes have spread the misconception after being blown up by Lich Bane + Echo, whilst they refused to invest IP into MR runes or buy a Hexdrinker.

Sona doesn't heal, I don't know where this misconception developed. Probably bronzes refusing to look at her numbers. Refusing to compare them side-by-side with every other heal in the game. Can you actually believe, a lot of people actually consistently consider Sona's healing comparable with Soraka? The misconception has become so skewed from the truth, that people actually think the worst-healer in the game is somehow on-par with the best?

Sona doesn't have decent CC, but bronzes remember "that 1 time a Sona stopped me from insta-gibbing her" by using her relatively short-range, long-cooldown ult. Which she then doesn't have for engaging.

I shall try. Sometimes it's about the approach^^

There's nothing other than the champ priority and Hymn of Valor range bug? If they decide to fix that one they might as well fix more if there are any.

There are other shadow nerfs, but the ones I'm aware of are represented on her champion pages already. Even though they're omitted from her patch notes. If you care about updating her patch note history, I'm off-hand also aware of these:

Patch 4.13:

  • Base AD reduced from 52 to 50
  • Crescendo range reduced from 1000 units to 900 and its width reduced.
LostFr0st1 votes

Boards was gonna reach max discussion mode reply size, so I moved it here:

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T06:09:54.759+0000)

It's not "all the time" for Sona either. Yes, she can perform basic attacks, but ADC Sona has never been a mainstream strat. She has cooldowns, just like any other support. Her auras weren't a DoT effect and that seems to be what everyone tries to liken them to. While she's on CD, those auras weren't doing anything. While her allies were on CD, they did nothing. I see a Sona walk up to harass, I know she's vulnerable to counter-harass; being in that aura range when all of her spells are on CD doesn't hinder me in any way. No different from Thresh or Blitz throwing a hook, Sona loses her "zone" once she's on CD, completely regardless of that big blue circle.

Maybe it's a clarity issue then. Maybe the blue should fade when the bonus is used up, and re-brighten if a new ally is tagged. Maybe a bright ripple under the newly-tagged ally (like song of celerity's icon) would be better than lighting up all of Sona too. This would speed up learning VS Sona quite a bit and once she's getting punished appropriately she'd be open for buffs.

Arguably, the best usage of Sona's aura was with DPS Crit ADCs. Even then, she's giving them less than a Pickaxe, a measly +20 AD only while nearby; less than they would get just from having Ornn on the same team.

Players want Sona to have a higher difficulty, that's certainly what you've been vying for with your suggestion, so I don't see any problem with this.

Once again, this isn't a new suggestion either, but it's been a long time since I last saw this one. I believe it went something like this:

  • Allied units within 400 range were granted the largest bonus
  • Allied units within 850 range were granted a moderate bonus
  • Allied units within 1100 range were only granted a tiny bonus
  • The bonus Sona grants to herself is debatable, either the large or moderate

Would want to avoid rings with stages (tiny/moderate/large) due to possible feelsbadman moments, but thanks for bringing up that its been looked at before.

I'm suggesting something like allies from 0-500 get no bonus, 501-1000 get the bonus or something like that. The above is just an illustrative number for a ring. Each aura would have its own "ring" kinda like Saturn so lingering buffs would still show.

Except, the difference being, all of those have been/still are viable characters. Sona isn't allowed to be playable, she's not allowed to have a usable kit that'll let her be played in high elo or pro play. She's the Master Yi of the support class: allowed to have a toxic and unbalanceable kit that abuses the chaos of yolo queue and widespread misconceptions to ch33z wins.

Sona doesn't do damage, but bronzes have spread the misconception after being blown up by Lich Bane + Echo, whilst they refused to invest IP into MR runes or buy a Hexdrinker.

I know... =(

Sona doesn't heal, I don't know where this misconception developed. Probably bronzes refusing to look at her numbers. Refusing to compare them side-by-side with every other heal in the game. Can you actually believe, a lot of people actually consistently consider Sona's healing comparable with Soraka? The misconception has become so skewed from the truth, that people actually think the worst-healer in the game is somehow on-par with the best?

Maybe comparable if the Soraka maxes and always missed Q and/or never passes the rejuvenation >:P

Sona doesn't have decent CC, but bronzes remember "that 1 time a Sona stopped me from insta-gibbing her" by using her relatively short-range, long-cooldown ult. Which she then doesn't have for engaging.

There are other shadow nerfs, but the ones I'm aware of are represented on her champion pages already. Even though they're omitted from her patch notes. If you care about updating her patch note history, I'm off-hand also aware of these:

Patch 4.13:

  • Base AD reduced from 52 to 50
  • Crescendo range reduced from 1000 units to 900 and its width reduced.

Wait, are theses "shadow nerfs" as in not present on the wiki or stuff that is incorrect in-game due to either missing/incorrect tooltips or not working as it should in-game?

Current thoughts: The Q-champ range is in an in-game bug with the ability. The bug above (4.13) being for the Wiki patch entry right?

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

Boards was gonna reach max discussion mode reply size, so I moved it here:

Maybe it's a clarity issue then. Maybe the blue should fade when the bonus is used up, and re-brighten if a new ally is tagged. Maybe a bright ripple under the newly-tagged ally (like song of celerity's icon) would be better than lighting up all of Sona too. This would speed up learning VS Sona quite a bit and once she's getting punished appropriately she'd be open for buffs.

It seems there was a bit of miscommunication. I was talking about Sona's aura, not her lingering active. The aura was a static buff, yes, but my point was that her and her allies cannot utilize that buff while they themselves are on cooldowns. The reason Hymn had low base numbers (50 - 250) was because she naturally gained +2/+10 damage from the aura. Just like Thresh can't throw a hook, Nami can't throw a bubble while they're on cooldown, Sona can't use Hymn while it's on cooldown. Her aura may have been giving her +4/+20 static AP, but she can't use it while she's on cooldown.

As Sona is now, she doesn't use auras. As you're already well-aware. So when I mention her "aura," I'm referring to her original kit. If I'm referring to her current or previous kit, I'll say "zone" or something. Even Fearless himself knows Sona isn't an aura-user anymore, notice how he specifically avoided using the word "aura," saying things like "snuggle" or "zone" instead and only began using the incorrect term of "aura" because bronzies were propagating its usage:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/hUj8b74R-sona-update-qa?comment=0014000100030000

If anything, her 1st-rework made Sona less team-oriented and frontloaded her kit into selfish gameplay. Hence one of the several reasons Ghostcrawler identified her as a bronze champion, somebody who's unviable for pro play.

I'm suggesting something like allies from 0-500 get no bonus, 501-1000 get the bonus or something like that. The above is just an illustrative number for a ring. Each aura would have its own "ring" kinda like Saturn so lingering buffs would still show.

This works for Darius, because obviously cleaving somebody with your razor-sharp, top-heavy battleaxe is gonna hurt a hella'lot more than bumping the handle against them.

This does NOT work for Sona. Sound grows dimmer as it moves out, I don't understand why there would be a dead zone directly surrounding the source. If you were to say allies Sona is facing get a larger buff than ones she's turned away from, that would make sense, but your suggestion actually ENCOURAGES the "aura bot" fallacy that Fearless fabricated. It encourages Sona to stand back to keep her allies in range, when in fact she should be closer to the fray, contributing with Power Chords, Hymns and even basic attacks. Giving her allies a larger bonus for being near Sona rewards Sona players for playing the champion correctly.

Wait, are theses "shadow nerfs" as in not present on the wiki or stuff that is incorrect in-game due to either missing/incorrect tooltips or not working as it should in-game?

They are shadow nerfs. Sona's AD was nerfed by - 2 during patch 4.13, which Rito did not document to the players, but changed the value on her champion page in secret. Which is irrelevant now, since her AD has been gutted by another 4 points.

Crescendo's range was nerfed by 100 units and its width reduced, meanwhile Rito blatantly lied to the players repeatedly claiming that it was "unchanged" every single time players called them out on it. Rito secretly changed her champion page to reflect the new range, contradictory of their claims that its hitbox stayed the same & of course without documenting the change. Here we are 3 years later and it's universally known that Crescendo is much smaller, I don't even think Rito has any qualms left admitting so, because it was so long ago. Example of one instance of those lies:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/hUj8b74R-sona-update-qa?comment=00080000

Heck, Fearless intentionally hid ALL of the numbers from his patch 4.13 rework. He hid them from the patch notes, he hid them from the champ update news post and he hid ~half of the numbers from her champion page. It was only fixed two years later after her second rework. Fearless admitted that he himself personally & intentionally hid those numbers, here:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TUGkgEhf-sonas-rework-discussion-thread?comment=000600000000

The only reason we even know wtf Sona's numbers are, is because he listed them on the PBE forums. Which, idk about you, but I don't have a PBE account, as many Sona players didn't and thusly were left out of the discussion and we were all forced to take the rework up the bum when it was released, because Rito has a strict policy against admitting failures and in turn against reverting those failures.

Rito frequently does shady practices, I'm not sure why people get skeptical when shadow nerfs are brought up. Sona isn't the only champion that's received them. She's not even the first, nor the last. She's just another statistic.

Current thoughts: The Q-champ range is in an in-game bug with the ability. The bug above (4.13) being for the Wiki patch entry right?

The range nerfs were not a "bug." They may call it a bug, but only because they would never openly admit to foul play.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. Sona's Q range was shadow nerfed to 550 across multiple patches leading from 4.13 (650 range) up to 4.17, losing another 100 units in 1 of the patches in-between, when Rito finally admitted it was "reduced by 150 units." Due to a lack of clarity on their part, they failed to note that it was reduced to 550 range and only stated they would be "adding 150 units" to its range. Which is why the current value on the wiki (850), the value on her champ page (825) and the note in her wiki history page (700 to 850) are all incorrect.

Furthermore, the champ priority range (600 units,) is an intentional interaction going as far back as her release. It was only increased sometime during season 3 from being 525 priority range. These details are and have always been missing from her wiki and champ page, due once again to Rito's lack of clarity.

I'm not sure how much more info I can give you. Everything is working as intended, the problem is the lack of documentation regarding all of this. Of course, they wouldn't be shadow nerfs if they were documented, hence why they're shadow nerfs.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-19T07:32:13.237+0000)

It seems there was a bit of miscommunication. I was talking about Sona's aura, not her lingering active. The aura was a static buff, yes, but my point was that her and her allies cannot utilize that buff while they themselves are on cooldowns. The reason Hymn had low base numbers (50 - 250) was because she naturally gained +2/+10 damage from the aura. Just like Thresh can't throw a hook, Nami can't throw a bubble while they're on cooldown, Sona can't use Hymn while it's on cooldown. Her aura may have been giving her +4/+20 static AP, but she can't use it while she's on cooldown.

As Sona is now, she doesn't use auras. As you're already well-aware. So when I mention her "aura," I'm referring to her original kit. If I'm referring to her current or previous kit, I'll say "zone" or something. Even Fearless himself knows Sona isn't an aura-user anymore, notice how he specifically avoided using the word "aura," saying things like "snuggle" or "zone" instead and only began using the incorrect term of "aura" because bronzies were propagating its usage:

Ahh, I get it now. It's 'cause they never switched the word "aura" to "buff" when she was reworked. But they changed the term to "melody" on the champ page... That's stu pid. Just makes it harder to stay on the same page between rework states.

I don't think they'd go back to her giving AP/AD but we could think of a new actual aura. Maybe nowadays they would do something like the following: convert ally dmg to the opposite type, convert X% of the dmg to true dmg (If CT got her xD), mark the champ with Q and when a buffed ally hits it does a bonus Y dmg with the mark persisting for X seconds like press the attack.

As for W, we've discussed that the heal sucks. So a guess would be to make the shield stronger and the high moment while putting the heal as a base-regen-enhancement aura (squishies have low regen though so idk for numbers). Either way it needs to be far enough from Soraka's machine-gun late-game heals to avoid the nerf-bat.

Her E aura can be Baron buff 'cause it's purple :^) (E aura is probably ok save for its range)

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/hUj8b74R-sona-update-qa?comment=0014000100030000

If anything, her 1st-rework made Sona less team-oriented and frontloaded her kit into selfish gameplay. Hence one of the several reasons Ghostcrawler identified her as a bronze champion, somebody who's unviable for pro play.

This works for Darius, because obviously cleaving somebody with your razor-sharp, top-heavy battleaxe is gonna hurt a hella'lot more than bumping the handle against them.

This does NOT work for Sona. Sound grows dimmer as it moves out, I don't understand why there would be a dead zone directly surrounding the source.

The area between Sona and her ally and the zone after the ally would have the dead zones, due to them creating interference. She can buff up to 4 champs by them surrounding her. This way she can't just buff everyone at once for being behind them. She'd want to be in the midrange of the fight to buff everyone (neither frontline nor backline but she can dip in when she wants.) If we want, Q W and E could have different range zones but it wouldn't be necessary due to the directional exclusion mechanic.

If you were to say allies Sona is facing get a larger buff than ones she's turned away from, that would make sense,

She'd just stay in the back line pressing W then. QQ

but your suggestion actually ENCOURAGES the "aura bot" fallacy that Fearless fabricated. It encourages Sona to stand back to keep her allies in range, when in fact she should be closer to the fray, contributing with Power Chords, Hymns and even basic attacks. Giving her allies a larger bonus for being near Sona rewards Sona players for playing the champion correctly.

I explained it slightly better (I think) above.

They are shadow nerfs. Sona's AD was nerfed by - 2 during patch 4.13, which Rito did not document to the players, but changed the value on her champion page in secret. Which is irrelevant now, since her AD has been gutted by another 4 points.

Crescendo's range was nerfed by 100 units and its width reduced, meanwhile Rito blatantly lied to the players repeatedly claiming that it was "unchanged" every single time players called them out on it. Rito secretly changed her champion page to reflect the new range, contradictory of their claims that its hitbox stayed the same & of course without documenting the change. Here we are 3 years later and it's universally known that Crescendo is much smaller, I don't even think Rito has any qualms left admitting so, because it was so long ago. Example of one instance of those lies:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/hUj8b74R-sona-update-qa?comment=00080000

Heck, Fearless intentionally hid ALL of the numbers from his patch 4.13 rework. He hid them from the patch notes, he hid them from the champ update news post and he hid ~half of the numbers from her champion page. It was only fixed two years later after her second rework. Fearless admitted that he himself personally & intentionally hid those numbers, here:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TUGkgEhf-sonas-rework-discussion-thread?comment=000600000000

Even I noticed the crescendo nerfs and I was mainly vs. Sona. It seemed like 1/2 the size (to me).

It's not new for Devs to hide the numbers though because it often gets in the way of "feel" feedback. It's not Sona-specific and they seem to be getting better at sharing specifics in recent reworks. Maybe its the current devs too though.

The only reason we even know wtf Sona's numbers are, is because he listed them on the PBE forums. Which, idk about you, but I don't have a PBE account, as many Sona players didn't and thusly were left out of the discussion and we were all forced to take the rework up the bum when it was released, because Rito has a strict policy against admitting failures and in turn against reverting those failures.

Everyone has one now so we can avoid this happening again hopefully. It's on the players to log in and be vocal though, which is rare on the Pbe.

Rito frequently does shady practices, I'm not sure why people get skeptical when shadow nerfs are brought up. Sona isn't the only champion that's received them. She's not even the first, nor the last. She's just another statistic.

The range nerfs were not a "bug." They may call it a bug, but only because they would never openly admit to foul play.

For all intents and purposes, I will need to classify it as a bug when I report it. Sorry.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. Sona's Q range was shadow nerfed to 550 across multiple patches leading from 4.13 (650 range) up to 4.17, losing another 100 units in 1 of the patches in-between, when Rito finally admitted it was "reduced by 150 units." Due to a lack of clarity on their part, they failed to note that it was reduced to 550 range and only stated they would be "adding 150 units" to its range. Which is why the current value on the wiki (850), the value on her champ page (825) and the note in her wiki history page (700 to 850) are all incorrect.

All champ pages have been untouched and wrong since 2016, but I'll check out the Wiki vs. live #s vs. What was recently datamined on S@20 and see how it lines up.

Furthermore, the champ priority range (600 units,) is an intentional interaction going as far back as her release. It was only increased sometime during season 3 from being 525 priority range. These details are and have always been missing from her wiki and champ page, due once again to Rito's lack of clarity.

Got it.

I'm not sure how much more info I can give you. Everything is working as intended, the problem is the lack of documentation regarding all of this. Of course, they wouldn't be shadow nerfs if they were documented, hence why they're shadow nerfs.

That's plenty enough info for me to look into it and check all the ranges/interactions. Thanks a bunch.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think they'd go back to her giving AP/AD but we could think of a new actual aura. Maybe nowadays they would do something like the following: convert ally dmg to the opposite type, convert X% of the dmg to true dmg (If CT got her xD), mark the champ with Q and when a buffed ally hits it does a bonus Y dmg with the mark persisting for X seconds like press the attack.

Sounds like an itemization nightmare for playing against Sona... "Caitlyn does physical damage when she's not near Sona or Sona doesn't have Hymn active, but she does magic damage when she does." That's way different from,"Kog'Maw does primarily magic damage," or "Corki's attacks are converted to magic damage."

It's much easier if the aura were just to say,"Allied champs do nth more damage." As it always has, in one way or the 2nd. Bonus AD/AP is one of the easier ways to do this, but it could also just be a % increase to their damage. It's also been suggested to stay as an on-hit damage bonus, like now, but it should apply to spell casts too (33% for AoE.) This can be done passively if the numbers are reduced and the fucking AP scaling is dumpstered, cause it should've never had an AP scaling in the first place. The on-hit bonus also has the advantage of staying as magic damage, if you're really attached to the idea of mixed damage.

As for W, we've discussed that the heal sucks. So a guess would be to make the shield stronger and the high moment while putting the heal as a base-regen-enhancement aura (squishies have low regen though so idk for numbers). Either way it needs to be far enough from Soraka's machine-gun late-game heals to avoid the nerf-bat.

Ah, hello Lucio. Welcome to League.

This has been suggested before, I don't think it's particularly a bad idea. In a way, it's recycling Heimer's old passive and Rito is very keen on recycling ideas. Both their own & stealing them from other companies. Rather than increasing allies "health regen," I think it's probably better suited as a flat healing-per-second, much the same way as Doran's Shield. Lets squishies sustain up soon enough, but tanks still need to primarily rely on their own regen & Warmog's, those sorts of things.

Her E aura can be Baron buff 'cause it's purple :^) (E aura is probably ok save for its range)

Interesting you should mention this. If you remember, it used to speed up allied minions. A lot of people vied for its return for a very long time, but alas... Rito.

The area between Sona and her ally and the zone after the ally would have the dead zones, due to them creating interference. She can buff up to 4 champs by them surrounding her. This way she can't just buff everyone at once for being behind them. She'd want to be in the midrange of the fight to buff everyone (neither frontline nor backline but she can dip in when she wants.) If we want, Q W and E could have different range zones but it wouldn't be necessary due to the directional exclusion mechanic.

This seems unnecessarily complex and a bit flawed. May I take a moment to point out that sounds travels FASTER through denser matter. This also doesn't necessarily mean her four allies need to be in all 4 compass directions of her, they could still stand directly in front of her, but so as not every of those allies' hitboxes completely block the "direction of sound" as it were. Squishier classes have smaller hitboxes anyways, so unless some like 2 or 3 squishies walled up between her and a tank, or there's a squishy on the other side of said tank, she would always be tagging everybody anyways.

It should probably stay a simple circle, but the differing ranges idea is still a good one.

Even I noticed the crescendo nerfs and I was mainly vs. Sona. It seemed like 1/2 the size (to me).

Yes, that seems to be about the generally agreed-upon nerf to the width of the spell. Unfortunately, specific details like widths, travel times and the such, are usually omitted from champion details, even on the wiki, unless specifically noted during a patch. Like Leona's E getting a width nerf some time ago.

It's not new for Devs to hide the numbers though because it often gets in the way of "feel" feedback. It's not Sona-specific and they seem to be getting better at sharing specifics in recent reworks. Maybe its the current devs too though.

The thing is though, even after he fessed up that hiding the numbers was a very very very bad decision, Rito still refused to disclose Sona's kit numbers. Like I said, they refused to update her champion page for 2 full years, even after I requested they do so on several separate occasions.

All champ pages have been untouched and wrong since 2016, but I'll check out the Wiki vs. live #s vs. What was recently datamined on S@20 and see how it lines up.

The first rework was in 2014 and Sona's page wasn't updated until 2016, so that's not the reason or even an excuse. Rito was just intentionally hiding her kit numbers, just like the "secret data" they constantly defer to and tell us players that we're not allowed to see.

LostFr0st1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-20T10:01:50.462+0000)

Sounds like an itemization nightmare for playing against Sona... "Caitlyn does physical damage when she's not near Sona or Sona doesn't have Hymn active, but she does magic damage when she does." That's way different from,"Kog'Maw does primarily magic damage," or "Corki's attacks are converted to magic damage."

It's much easier if the aura were just to say,"Allied champs do nth more damage." As it always has, in one way or the 2nd. Bonus AD/AP is one of the easier ways to do this, but it could also just be a % increase to their damage. It's also been suggested to stay as an on-hit damage bonus, like now, but it should apply to spell casts too (33% for AoE.) This can be done passively if the numbers are reduced and the fucking AP scaling is dumpstered, cause it should've never had an AP scaling in the first place. The on-hit bonus also has the advantage of staying as magic damage, if you're really attached to the idea of mixed damage.

I like % increase in damage too. It also has the benefit of not creating ally ratio synergies which cause her to be nerfed.

Ah, hello Lucio. Welcome to League.

I know that's an overwatch character, but I don't play overwatch so idk what he does :/ I apologize for accidentally suggesting something similar (I'll assume I did).

This has been suggested before, I don't think it's particularly a bad idea. In a way, it's recycling Heimer's old passive and Rito is very keen on recycling ideas. Both their own & stealing them from other companies. Rather than increasing allies "health regen," I think it's probably better suited as a flat healing-per-second, much the same way as Doran's Shield. Lets squishies sustain up soon enough, but tanks still need to primarily rely on their own regen & Warmog's, those sorts of things.

Ok, good feedback.

Interesting you should mention this. If you remember, it used to speed up allied minions. A lot of people vied for its return for a very long time, but alas... Rito.

I know... I liked that about old Galio E too...

This seems unnecessarily complex and a bit flawed. May I take a moment to point out that sounds travels FASTER through denser matter. This also doesn't necessarily mean her four allies need to be in all 4 compass directions of her, they could still stand directly in front of her, but so as not every of those allies' hitboxes completely block the "direction of sound" as it were.

Yeah, don't worry 'bout it. Was something I thought of where the allies in range also became sources with the same frequency while buffed by Sona. It's not a big deal but at least I got feedback on it so worth.

Squishier classes have smaller hitboxes anyways, so unless some like 2 or 3 squishies walled up between her and a tank, or there's a squishy on the other side of said tank, she would always be tagging everybody anyways.

Funny thing is that it just occurred to me on how they could nerf it. "The first ally will receive the full shield, with other allies who enter the aura receiving 50% of the effect. In cases where two allies are in range, the most injured ally will be prioritized."

It should probably stay a simple circle, but the differing ranges idea is still a good one.

I'm going to put all this feedback together with what the other Sonas told me in a separate thread for a mock rework. I think I have enough ammo to try now (now being not today but in the next few days). That way multiple people can attack it.

Yes, that seems to be about the generally agreed-upon nerf to the width of the spell. Unfortunately, specific details like widths, travel times and the such, are usually omitted from champion details, even on the wiki, unless specifically noted during a patch. Like Leona's E getting a width nerf some time ago.

The thing is though, even after he fessed up that hiding the numbers was a very very very bad decision, Rito still refused to disclose Sona's kit numbers. Like I said, they refused to update her champion page for 2 full years, even after I requested they do so on several separate occasions.

The first rework was in 2014 and Sona's page wasn't updated until 2016, so that's not the reason or even an excuse. Rito was just intentionally hiding her kit numbers, just like the "secret data" they constantly defer to and tell us players that we're not allowed to see.

Nobody is going to be updated on that page; it's basically an archive now. They are moving everything to League Nexus but there's no sign of champ pages yet. They had that info client-side for a while (it would pull the info from the game data) but it bugged out. Hopefully they bring it back because it was very useful and much faster than needing to open the wiki.

I'd just let sleeping dogs stay there. There was a post from a VGU team member yesterday which was interesting. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/PuIkmwIR-im-riotmemememememe-ama-about-championvgu-development I asked about playerbase "readiness" being a factor in reworks (spoiler: it is) And about playerbase size. (WW was the experiment, he went well, now it's Irelia's turn. Funny thing is that their bases are the same size as Sona's so take from that what you will.)

Either way I personally think in a year or so she's got a shot at one.

Miku Hime sama4 votes

Don't forget. Rito Cactopus straight-up called the Sona thread demanding Rito cancel the nerfs a "Troll Thread." Despite having significant up-votes. Despite lacking any significant arguments that typically break out in Sona threads between Sona players and Bronzes. Despite being on the front page for like a week with amongst the highest views.

That should tell you very clearly what Rito's stance is regarding Sona.

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-08T21:08:14.266+0000)

Don't forget. Rito Cactopus straight-up called the Sona thread demanding Rito cancel the nerfs a "Troll Thread." Despite having significant up-votes. Despite lacking any significant arguments that typically break out in Sona threads between Sona players and Bronzes. Despite being on the front page for like a week with amongst the highest views.

That should tell you very clearly what Rito's stance is regarding Sona.

Link? Gonna keep that one in the chamber.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/T5sZj9Ho-my-first-post-after-5-years-of-reading-the-boards?comment=000900010002

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T21:58:39.647+0000)

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/T5sZj9Ho-my-first-post-after-5-years-of-reading-the-boards?comment=000900010002

He didn't call any of them troll threads, though. The orange essence one was apparently filled with misinfo, which Cactopus has had an issue with misinformation being spread on the boards.

Gonna not keep that one in the chamber.

As for the other comment: I'm telling you here that Sheen isn't a required item. Tear is. I'm ALSO telling you that of course it's bullshit that we're forced to buy that damn thing. But when Riot was doing the mini-rework, a bunch of nobodies came out of the bushes pushing for "Urf Sona" rather than anything that made sense. Now here we are.

Also, my issue with the Sona topic is that the only thing people can apparently agree on is that they don't like her current state...ever. She's either stupid op, stupid useless, or isn't either of those and just feels stupid useless.

Still, it's hard to focus people on the actual issues, like lack of clarity in game play, lack of decision making or exciting moments, extremely static play patterns, and so on, when some people jump into what I'm trying to get across to start telling everyone that Sona lives and dies by something that...honestly, isn't even true. The mini-rework, on top of itemization changes, at least liberated Sona from having to build Lich/Luden's every game...even if we're now shackled to tear instead. It'd be easier for me to just focus on properly conveying the issue if I didn't have to backtrack to correct misinformation. Worst part is I get slapped on the wrist for naming this dude by name on here. -_-

EpicSaxGandalf1 votes

Worst part is I get slapped on the wrist for naming this dude by name on here. -_-

(sorry to butt in, just curious) who?. pika?... he is the literally insane one of the "sona" supporters, has no real filter and is highly cognitively dissonant. thank god he isn't as active on reddit or if he is noone can really see his comments cause of downvote mechanisms.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

He didn't call any of them troll threads, though. The orange essence one was apparently filled with misinfo, which Cactopus has had an issue with misinformation being spread on the boards.

For a language that is complicated by its obscenely-high number of synonyms, implications & metaphors; you are very hung up on his EXACT word usage. Cactopus called that a troll thread; doesn't matter if he used the exact word. He used synonyms, his combination of words blatantly come across as the exact same meaning, regardless of the fact he intentionally sugar-coated them in a way to pander to the masses.

Also, look at Meddler's recent thread that somebody already linked here in this thread, regarding these nerfs to the Forbidden Idol line. In his EIGHTEEN responses, he intentionally avoided every single inquiry or feedback directly referring to Sona. There are posters who specifically pointed out the fact that Meddler intentionally avoided discussion about Sona. Sona is a taboo subject amongst Rito employees, except when they're gutting her. It doesn't matter if she's bad, feels bad or looks bad; Rito has forbidden acknowledging her, unless it's Average Joe Bronze V loudly crying out, "OP!!! Nerf!!!" This is how Rito has treated Sona going as far back as her first rework over 3 years ago.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/zTYEf4er-quick-gameplay-thoughts-december-8

Dead flag blues2 votes

I don't get it, I feel like suddenly everyone sees Sona as an unkillable support with no counter. She's been like this for years, maybe the numbers are too strong with the new runes, but I really don't see why is everyone calling her kit "unhealthy" or whatever, when nobody played her before. Only ARAM players like me can tell that she's broken in this mode (70% winrate for 3+ years now), but I kinda feel like this community is full of sheeps

D357R0Y3R2 votes

it's not that she's unkillable it's that she's TOO killable to compensate her reliable kit

and it makes her unable to be played in high elo when balanced in low elo

she's unhealthy because since you can't counter her kit, riot made it(aura low range, only cc is ult, 325 base ms low base stats champ) so you can just roll over her face extremely easy leaving her no room to decide the outcome of what happens

it's binary as hell, it cannot be balanced

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

it's not that she's unkillable it's that she's TOO killable to compensate her reliable kit

and it makes her unable to be played in high elo when balanced in low elo

she's unhealthy because since you can't counter her kit, riot made it(aura low range, only cc is ult, 325 base ms low base stats champ) so you can just roll over her face extremely easy leaving her no room to decide the outcome of what happens

it's binary as hell, it cannot be balanced

I've been singing this EXACT tune for years, now. No one's going to listen to you.

Hell, Meddler himself said the same thing to my own post like 2 years ago.

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  1. Regardless of how strong or weak the champ is, she always feels weak as hell, making people super turned off from nerfs. This is because her design splits every button press 5 ways, even when there's only 1 or 2 people around.

  2. Sona's overall numbers may be one thing, but logistics expose that she usually has a horrible skew in one direction or the other. Before the mini-rework, she was balanced primarily for low elo. After that, they wanted to avoid the mob again and balanced her for high elo, but her lower elo rates usually sported pretty nightmare-fuel status if you bothered to take a peek. Her kit as it is now is horrible for Riot's 3-way balancing philosophy, which was hinted at even years ago.

  3. Once again, power is super shallow per person per cast because it can possibly effect 5 people all the time without missing, if not a bit more or less. Super reliable and potentially super multiplied per cast, so of course each cast feels wimpy per head. They tried to side step this by giving her the Kayle treatment during her mini-rework: "If she's super busted by 40 minutes, it's your fault for letting her get to 40 minutes. Aight bye." This is lazy as hell and didn't fix a dang thing about the issues people have with her in the first place.

  4. Way too reliable to make her feel as rewarding as dang near anyone else.

There's more to the post that I left off, but you get the point. It's a known problem, abd the mini-rework didn't fix a single bit of that problem. That said...we're going to ignore it. It rustles my jimmies, but I can say there are champs I can easily think of that need major game play or visual work before Sona does, assuming VGUs keep this same pace of 2 - 3 per year.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Way too reliable to make her feel as rewarding as dang near anyone else.

sadly

my issue is that she plays the same way in every single game

Miku Hime sama1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T18:37:52.960+0000)

but I kinda feel like this community is full of sheeps

You summed up the problem perfectly. Remember, Rito prefers catering to sheep, as many of them are part of the herd mentality themselves.

Sona disappeared from professional play with her first rework & has never returned. She's never received a buff in this game's entire history, meanwhile she's been getting nerfed the whole time. Her 2nd rework just further emphasized the problems created by the 1st & brought additional nerfs.

This pre-season didn't magically make Sona a playable character after being gutter-trash for over 3 years. Like you pointed out, the culprit is all of the artificial damage that Rito loaded into Masteries Reforged. Between Aery, Scorch, Celerity, Eyeball Collection, Cheap Shot & a free +25 AP from Sorcery, every enchanter in the game suddenly got a massive increase in potential artificial numbers, whereas before they only had Thunderlord's and that was it. Every support has been doing significantly more damage, including Janna, Lulu, Nami & more. Rito is intentionally singling-out Sona solely of their own personal hatred for the character.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

So here's the thing about Sona specifically. She's the worst-user of the Forbidden Idol line out of all enchanters. She can't control her heal, her shield is melee-range and has a 1.5-second duration. On top of these, her numbers are truly awful.

Nerfing the Forbidden Idol item-line actually affects Sona the least of all enchanters. Which honestly speaks more about just how fucking BAD Sona is now, more than anything else. When her theoretical preferred item-path being nerfed doesn't actually affect her.

If we're being realistic here, "proper" Sona itemization doesn't include even a single Forbidden Idol in her build path. For Sona to not be a hindrance to her own team, she needs Sheen 1st-item before Sightstone. Then she needs Tear of the Goddess to compensate for having the worst mana-gating of any support in this game's entire history. Then she needs Luden's Echo for more artificial numbers. By time she has her 6 mandatory items, she probably won't even have boots, let alone a Forbidden Idol item to make her shitty heal only slightly less-shitty.

chipndip14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P21FhEtE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-08T20:46:56.715+0000)

So here's the thing about Sona specifically. She's the worst-user of the Forbidden Idol line out of all enchanters. She can't control her heal, her shield is melee-range and has a 1.5-second duration. On top of these, her numbers are truly awful.

Nerfing the Forbidden Idol item-line actually affects Sona the least of all enchanters. Which honestly speaks more about just how fucking BAD Sona is now, more than anything else. When her theoretical preferred item-path being nerfed doesn't actually affect her.

If we're being realistic here, "proper" Sona itemization doesn't include even a single Forbidden Idol in her build path. For Sona to not be a hindrance to her own team, she needs Sheen 1st-item before Sightstone. Then she needs Tear of the Goddess to compensate for having the worst mana-gating of any support in this game's entire history. Then she needs Luden's Echo for more artificial numbers. By time she has her 6 mandatory items, she probably won't even have boots, let alone a Forbidden Idol item to make her shitty heal only slightly less-shitty.

  1. Sona doesn't need a Lich Bane or a Luden's. She DOES need tear, though. Frostfang -> tear, basically...or vice versa, but those two are the first buys.

  2. Grossly overstating Sona's issues doesn't help the champ any more than blatantly ignoring them like Riot doesn't. Ya gotta stop rocking with that guy, really. It's hard to push a better message when it dragged down by his.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Sona doesn't need a Lich Bane or a Luden's. She DOES need tear, though. Frostfang -> tear, basically...or vice versa, but those two are the first buys.

  2. Grossly overstating Sona's issues doesn't help the champ any more than blatantly ignoring them like Riot doesn't. Ya gotta stop rocking with that guy, really. It's hard to push a better message when it dragged down by his.

A) Tear shouldn't be a 100%-buy on support, just to function. I've always liked Tear on Sona, even back in season 3, Tear is a good item that works well on support. I think it was Aphromoo who used to buy it every game on every support in yolo queue, upgrading into either Archangel or Muramana depending on the game. However, those are both damage items and Tear doesn't have a support-centric upgrade. Supports shouldn't be FORCED to buy damage just to function. You can claim Sona isn't forced to buy Lich Bane, but I've seen the numbers. Well-over 2/3 of Sona's losses globally are in games where she opted out of buying Spellblade. Furthermore, nearly every game lost pre-20 minutes are caused by not rushing Sheen FIRST. Before Sightstone. Before Tear.

B) I was actually **understating **Sona's issues. We all know what her problems are, even those of us that don't want to admit them. We all know she's far worse off even than what we're stating. The only thing dragging the message down is Bronze mentality and Rito's deep-seated hatred for Sona. Rather than attacking me for wanting Sona to get fixed & attempting to create in-fighting, how about you direct that anger at the people who are openly preventing those fixes?

gabetheguy1 votes

she will never get a VGU simply due to her ultimate skin alone. same with udyr.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

They need to scrap her kit altogether except passive and ulti.

Melee range auras? Need to go.

Q can be scrapped since it's basically just boring damage, for something new.

W is an uncontrollable heal so it can be reworked for something new.

E is probably the only thing decent but nami does speed up and slow down better, so it can be scrapped for something new.

Her passive should stay with the full functionality behind it of casting spells empowering AAs for various effects though.

And her ultimate should stay in tact as well.

I Just don't see why one of the squishiest champs has to be in melee range to give aura effects or boring damage, uncontrollable heal, and a utility MS skill done better by other utility supports has to be a thing. Her theme of music for power is amazing but in her current state she tries to do too much without actually excelling at anything.

Her Jack of all trades has too much trade offs or unfavorable impact for those who want to play her.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

I'd like to disagree on just one point. I believe Crescendo should be modernized in some way. It would essentially be kept the same, but it needs updating somehow. An upgraded hitbox, a cone perhaps. Also, maybe a brief Silence after the Stun ends too.

Aphromoo made an important point that Summon Tibbers is just an upgraded version of Crescendo. He said this four years ago and Summon Tibbers has only seen buffs and its own modernization since then. Meanwhile Crescendo only got a range and width nerf. It's long overdue for a buff.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Only reason I never brought it up was cause I was already suggesting massive kit reworks already and didn't want to overly ask for too much even though I felt the same way too.

Although I'm surprised someone else felt it was a weaker tibbers ulti.

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