Seriously. Literally every jungle main who doesn't main Lee Sin or Vi is pissed, every Veigar player is pissed, Morde players are pissed, Kass players pretty much don't exist anymore, Azir still hasn't gotten compensated for his massive nerf which dropped his win rate to about 40%. Revive/TP Karthus players are gone now, so much for that fun play style.
LOOK AT ALL THIS DIVERSITY GUYS.
Jamaree9 votesI really like how people are acting like people didn't beg for this to happen to Kass.
Zazusha8 votesthe wind up speed on Kalista is a positive thing in this patch, I'ma call it now though, -33% wont be enough.
Altricad1 votesDefinitely! That's like a Frozen heart + randuins and believe me... I saw a singed with both of those items get kited by a 2.0 attack speed kalista ( while he was using his ult+ghost+karma speed boost)
SanKakU3 votesVeigar changes look great, Mordekaiser changes don't appear too questionable. Chilling Smite change is fine since jungle is the best position in the game now and they are just tweaking the balance of power amongst the jungle champs. The only thing in the patch that really has me upset at all(of course I haven't tested things that interest me, like the Kalista change for example) is the Revive removal. I can't understand why they are removing it. It's extremely good at late game. If any Summoner Spell should be removed, it's Clairvoyance. And that one probably should not be removed but simply buffed.
NoMonku2 votesRevive is nice, but I think that since it is rarely used it was taken out. Also I feel the use of it is toxic for both your team and theirs. For your team, since you have revive, you have no real issues with going in and dying, but this can lead to you feeding or making poor decisions, which can lead to your team in 4v5 situations. For the enemy team, though, if you get to late game, even IF they play well and pulled off a perfect fight, a tp/revive in to their team can/will completely destroy them and remove any actual work they did. It has no real "counterplay" imo, which is why it was removed.
As for the patch changes, I like most of it. I'm hoping the Morde changes help him, though I'm feeling it might not be enough. Veigar changes are good, he can farm easier now and his stun isn't OP anymore. Zilean looks nice, he doesn't seem as oppressive as before, but will be more rewarding if you actually have to skill to use him.
Subject 52 votesThis patch is pretty horrible to be honest. How about another vote to return to the old jungle, when Sona could actually be played. Havn't played Sona in ranked in forever . . . Veigar is basically gone and out of the question. 'Oh look, I have almost an entire second to react to his stun that is already countered by like 5 items in the game, at least he can farm better with his skill shot of a q, you know, the targeted ability used to kill mobile champions? You know, basically the entire mid lane? Like, you know, the lane Veigar is suppose to be in? Like, you know?
SmokingPuffin2 votesThe reworks seem pretty half baked.
Kassadin got absolutely crushed.
The rest of the champion changes seem pretty reasonable. J4, Janna, Kalista all very good ideas.
Visigoth2 votesThe reworks seem pretty half baked.
Kassadin got absolutely crushed.
The rest of the champion changes seem pretty reasonable. J4, Janna, Kalista all very good ideas.
also the completely unnecessary nerfs to jungle items AGAIN
SmokingPuffin5 votesI see the chilling smite nerf as 100% necessary.
The smite item switching for free wasn't exactly OP, but I see no reason why it should work that way either. It won't significantly impact my jungle builds.
Bijorn1 votesI see the chilling smite nerf as 100% necessary.
The smite item switching for free wasn't exactly OP, but I see no reason why it should work that way either. It won't significantly impact my jungle builds.
Agreed with the item switching cost going from 0 to 250 gold. I also see the chilling smite nerf yet I dont.
The nerf to chilling smite was made due to it being too powerful on the junglers, correct? So it deserves a nerf. But then you look at what junglers specifically were too strong with it. You get the 3-4 top tier junglers J4, Vi, Lee, and maybe Rek'Sai (i dont really pay much attention to her).
I dont believe any of these junglers are "OP" but just happened to thrive in how the jungle is right now. I do believe the slight J4 nerfs were needed. Vi probably should get some as well. Lee especially needs some numbers tweaked so hes not as well rounded as he is. He's a jack of all trades but master at none.
The chilling smite nerf hurt every other potential jungler in the game that really needs it. Most of these champs have no mobility (like Olaf). Olaf REALLY needed this smite and made him somewhat viable. He is still more viable than he used to be before chilling smite was a thing, but the nerf hurt him as well as everyone else.
I believe Riot should have just tweaked a few numbers on the top tier junglers and could have balanced it out much more than what this nerf did. Yes, tank junglers still need love. Tweaking top tier junglers a bit to tone them down would most certainly expand the "viable jungle list".
At least this is my .02. Feel free to explain why i'm wrong :)
SmokingPuffin2 votesThe nerf to chilling smite was made due to it being too powerful on the junglers, correct? So it deserves a nerf. But then you look at what junglers specifically were too strong with it. You get the 3-4 top tier junglers J4, Vi, Lee, and maybe Rek'Sai (i dont really pay much attention to her).
The nerf was made for game health reasons. Chilling smite effectively made all junglers have the same engage range. You couldn't design a kit, or balance an existing kit, around a shorter engage range.
It is a change with balance impacts, but it's primarily a design topic.
The chilling smite nerf hurt every other potential jungler in the game that really needs it. Most of these champs have no mobility (like Olaf). Olaf REALLY needed this smite and made him somewhat viable. He is still more viable than he used to be before chilling smite was a thing, but the nerf hurt him as well as everyone else.
I find that many strong players are opting to take Ranger's on Olaf, because holy crap his mana sustain is bad. I don't see it as particularly good on him, as he already has a pretty good ranged slow.
The champions that really suffer from this nerf are the short ranged ones. Stuff like Shyvana and Trundle.
I believe Riot should have just tweaked a few numbers on the top tier junglers and could have balanced it out much more than what this nerf did. Yes, tank junglers still need love. Tweaking top tier junglers a bit to tone them down would most certainly expand the "viable jungle list".
Absolutely needs to happen, and is going to happen. This is a much harder design problem than the chilling smite thing though, and it has big implications for competitive play. No surprise they're taking their time on it.
You see, Lee/Jarvan/Vi's strength in game isn't exactly about balance. It's about about design. The fix is giving them meaningful weaknesses and making them less generalist. That is a hard thing to do with a kit that isn't designed for it up front.
Bijorn1 votesThe nerf was made for game health reasons. Chilling smite effectively made all junglers have the same engage range. You couldn't design a kit, or balance an existing kit, around a shorter engage range.
It is a change with balance impacts, but it's primarily a design topic.
I find that many strong players are opting to take Ranger's on Olaf, because holy crap his mana sustain is bad. I don't see it as particularly good on him, as he already has a pretty good ranged slow.
The champions that really suffer from this nerf are the short ranged ones. Stuff like Shyvana and Trundle.
Absolutely needs to happen, and is going to happen. This is a much harder design problem than the chilling smite thing though, and it has big implications for competitive play. No surprise they're taking their time on it.
You see, Lee/Jarvan/Vi's strength in game isn't exactly about balance. It's about about design. The fix is giving them meaningful weaknesses and making them less generalist. That is a hard thing to do with a kit that isn't designed for it up front.
Thanks for your reply! I guess what I was meaning when I disagreed with the straight up nerf to chilling smite was: it is a blanket nerf not to just the junglers who were very strong with it, but even to the ones that are weak (like Shyvana and Trundle as yo mentioned). I'm not a fan of blanket nerfs when only 5% of champs are causing issues with an item.
I have not seen Rangers on Olaf. This is interesting I will most certainly look into this. I use chilling due to if an Axe gets missed (I know, I shouldnt miss an Axe but on the chance I do or it is flashed) I want a way to be able to stick to my target. That was, and is, one of the biggest issues on Olaf. Chilling really helped with that.
I agree that those nerfs will happen but it is a much bigger/harder issue. I also agree that the nerf is giving the top 4 meaningful weakness, but isnt it, in a way, enhancing the weakness of already weak junglers like the few mentioned above?
Forgive me I am still trying to figure out this multi-quote/breaking up a reply quoting thing like you did lol
SmokingPuffin2 votesThanks for your reply! I guess what I was meaning when I disagreed with the straight up nerf to chilling smite was: it is a blanket nerf not to just the junglers who were very strong with it, but even to the ones that are weak (like Shyvana and Trundle as yo mentioned). I'm not a fan of blanket nerfs when only 5% of champs are causing issues with an item.
This is a problem with systems level changes. Obviously you can't nerf chilling smite for just some champions.
The way this has to work (it sucks but it's the only way) is that you get the systems stuff to the place you want it, then you tune the champions. You can't use systems stuff to tune champions. Riot has tried and failed at this over, and over, and over.
Shyvana and Trundle need buffs. Alternatively, top tier junglers need nerfs. There is no way around this. Trying to fix them with changes to items, masteries, runes, etc, will always leave them behind the top tier junglers without champion level changes.
I have not seen Rangers on Olaf. This is interesting I will most certainly look into this. I use chilling due to if an Axe gets missed (I know, I shouldnt miss an Axe but on the chance I do or it is flashed) I want a way to be able to stick to my target. That was, and is, one of the biggest issues on Olaf. Chilling really helped with that.
It's true. Certainly it's a tradeoff, and other strong players prefer chilling on Olaf.
I agree that those nerfs will happen but it is a much bigger/harder issue. I also agree that the nerf is giving the top 4 meaningful weakness, but isnt it, in a way, enhancing the weakness of already weak junglers like the few mentioned above?
I think the gap between Shyvana and Lee Sin on 5.4 is about the same size as it was on 5.3. There is actually a decent argument that Lee got more benefit from chilling smite than Shyvana did, because so much of his damage is gated by skillshot and chilling made it easier than intended to land a long range Q.
Forgive me I am still trying to figure out this multi-quote/breaking up a reply quoting thing like you did lol
Just hit enter after the thing you want to talk about. Things not preceded by a ">" show up as your text.
Bijorn1 votesThis is a problem with systems level changes. Obviously you can't nerf chilling smite for just some champions.
This is true and I understand it. Just sucks lol.
The way this has to work (it sucks but it's the only way) is that you get the systems stuff to the place you want it, then you tune the champions. You can't use systems stuff to tune champions. Riot has tried and failed at this over, and over, and over.
I cant remember how many times items have gotten nerfed due to some champs being overbearing with them instead of toning down said champions. Just a crappy situation.
Shyvana and Trundle need buffs. Alternatively, top tier junglers need nerfs. There is no way around this. Trying to fix them with changes to items, masteries, runes, etc, will always leave them behind the top tier junglers without champion level changes.
I can't help but just scratch my head and say "why does this always happen?" when it comes to this type of thing. Yes, jungle changes made certain champs not just stronger, but overbearing. Tone down just a few numbers by a bit, slight number buffs to other junglers, and it should be much more balanced. Granted, I am not a software developer so I have no idea how hard this would be. Just seems like the logical thought process to me. But, what do I know. I'm a finance major I don't know anything about this stuff lol.
It's true. Certainly it's a tradeoff, and other strong players prefer chilling on Olaf.
Maybe if I actually get good at skillshots with Olaf I wont have to rely on it :P
I think the gap between Shyvana and Lee Sin on 5.4 is about the same size as it was on 5.3. There is actually a decent argument that Lee got more benefit from chilling smite than Shyvana did, because so much of his damage is gated by skillshot and chilling made it easier than intended to land a long range Q.
I never thought of it that way. But that makes a lot of sense. It is partially why I like it on Olaf. Never seemed to connect it to Lee as well.
Just hit enter after the thing you want to talk about. Things not preceded by a ">" show up as your text.
You sir are a god among mortals. I bow to you.
WarlockLaw1 votesThe item switch for free allows some ppl with weak early clears to get trailblazer early then after they get some damage/sustain switch to chilling so they can gank better. Now those junglers got that much harder
BubbaDuke2 votesSyndra's stun is being made easier to land, which is nice.
Penguin Eclipse1 votesSyndra's stun is being made easier to land, which is nice.
But she will still have a garbage tier laning phase and lackluster late game.
Sardaukar1231 votesno, its still not working... its just whiffing through people and not doing anything.
AtheosisX1 votesHere's what I'm wondering, and this is coming from someone who doesn't play him, why are they nerfing Xerath. Who thought Xerath was too good in the current meta? That one baffles me.
Centuros1 votesThat Zilean rework, though...
ApplyForAGrant1 votesJ4, Janna, Kalista changes were reasonable. But other than that, yeah....
Pika3101 votesI'd say DJ Sona shouldn't have been released either. This is the most inopportune moment for her release when it's been 7 months since her kit was destroyed, she's had unrelenting nerfs every other patch since and Riot still chooses to employ Fearless. Their profits from this skin will be at the bare minimum; from a business standpoint, they needed to wait until after 4.13 is reverted and they fire Fearless. As it is now, the income from DJ Sona is going to be in the red.
SmokingPuffin1 votesStuff I like from 5.4 notes:
Basically, I like all the small stuff. I think the big rework items are looking pretty half baked. Expect significant further work on all of those champions.
Laughing Fish1 votes
is far better off imo. Is he harder? certainly. But Dat AoE stun is great, and not having to spam rewind to get your ult back is marvelous. Honestly, having to spam rewind was the sole reason I almost never used Zilean.