So wait, do people on Gameplay and Balance actually think supports are in a bad spot?

HateDaddy·Apr 24, 2015·17 votes·1,414 views

What in the actual fuck lol

58 Comments

redniwediSApr 24, 201510 votes

People on Gameplay & Balance are simply other boards members who are talking about either gameplay or balance, or both. "People" really doesn't refer to anyone in particular in this regard.

Now, I don't really think there's a large bandwagon currently that things supports are in a bad place, however there is a bandwagon for just about everything, so it's possible.

Any chance you have some evidence either way on this matter?

HateDaddyApr 24, 20155 votes

{quoted}

People on Gameplay & Balance are simply other boards members who are talking about either gameplay or balance, or both. "People" really doesn't refer to anyone in particular in this regard.

Now, I don't really think there's a large bandwagon currently that things supports are in a bad place, however there is a bandwagon for just about everything, so it's possible.

Any chance you have some evidence either way on this matter?

I've seen a few threads off and on and I've been told this. Instead of looking for threads, I'm just going to ask.

And id consider gsmeplay and balance its own little community as there are common jerking tendencies here amongst the majority like unnecessary hate for Zed, they think Sej is balanced etc.

redniwediSApr 24, 20153 votes

The circle jerkers are something else, and they float between board sections quite a bit.

HateDaddyApr 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The circle jerkers are something else, and they float between board sections quite a bit.

Not really

redniwediSApr 25, 20156 votes

Well, from the perspective of someone who only uses the New sorting option it sure looks that way.

Personally I would rather find out why GDers are suddenly so interested in viewing G&B as a community. It's a rather annoying trend seeing as how G&B isn't a community in any sense of the word.

HateDaddyApr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well, from the perspective of someone who only uses the New sorting option it sure looks that way.

Personally I would rather find out why GDers are suddenly so interested in viewing G&B as a community. It's a rather annoying trend seeing as how G&B isn't a community in any sense of the word.

I don't see how you couldn't consider GB it's own community. There are several people who post here on the regular and I'm sure they interact with each other in game as well. It's not a community the way GD is but it's still a community nevertheless.

GD is actually just now starting to browse the rest of the boards because initially, we didn't want to switch over to boards. So at first people were hesitant to use the boards, including GD. Now that people have come back and time has passed, people are seeing what the rest of the boards have to offer.

Angry MonsterApr 25, 20153 votes

can GD please just go back to there hole then?

Muted SummonerApr 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I've seen a few threads off and on and I've been told this. Instead of looking for threads, I'm just going to ask.

And id consider gsmeplay and balance its own little community as there are common jerking tendencies here amongst the majority like unnecessary hate for Zed, they think Sej is balanced etc.

tbh Sejuani has always been balanced. its just the items have changed and with that there are more tankier champs. Sej is hard to kill now because there aren't as many hyper carries ne more in the game but more tanks. She has received nerf after nerf but cinderhulk changed a lot of things and not to mention other champs were nerfed before cinderhulk. Don't act like Sejuani didn't have a small pick rate before the meta shifted due to changes in the game.

HateDaddyApr 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

tbh Sejuani has always been balanced. its just the items have changed and with that there are more tankier champs. Sej is hard to kill now because there aren't as many hyper carries ne more in the game but more tanks. She has received nerf after nerf but cinderhulk changed a lot of things and not to mention other champs were nerfed before cinderhulk. Don't act like Sejuani didn't have a small pick rate before the meta shifted due to changes in the game.

No she hasn't lol

She was being picked/banned in both high elo and competitive before cinderhulk was even released during Lee/J4 fotm. Sej has always been hard to kill because of her passive, which is why this meta amplifies her power even further because of health stacking. And she really hasn't been nerfed that much, her first set of nerfs were more of a power shift and cinderhulk basically offset the nerfs damage wise (unless you were building AP Sej) and they changed her ult so she actually has to land it well for it to be effective instead of it being an aoe huge slow when she whiffs it.

There's a reason she's still pick or ban. Cinderhulk is only a part of the problem with her, cinderhulk itself needs a few nerfs. Nothing major.

Muted SummonerApr 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No she hasn't lol

She was being picked/banned in both high elo and competitive before cinderhulk was even released during Lee/J4 fotm. Sej has always been hard to kill because of her passive, which is why this meta amplifies her power even further because of health stacking. And she really hasn't been nerfed that much, her first set of nerfs were more of a power shift and cinderhulk basically offset the nerfs damage wise (unless you were building AP Sej) and they changed her ult so she actually has to land it well for it to be effective instead of it being an aoe huge slow when she whiffs it.

There's a reason she's still pick or ban. Cinderhulk is only a part of the problem with her, cinderhulk itself needs a few nerfs. Nothing major.

It was the new jungle and removal of dfg imo.

biggad2001Apr 25, 20158 votes

OP is stupid, supports are weak and need many buffs, im bronze 3 (so im pretty good) and even when i get 300 ap on nami i cant carry, buff pls?

Silent PaceApr 25, 20152 votes

[deleted]

CubedJusticeApr 25, 20151 votes

The joke

Your head

HateDaddyApr 25, 20156 votes

{quoted}

OP is stupid, supports are weak and need many buffs, im bronze 3 (so im pretty good) and even when i get 300 ap on nami i cant carry, buff pls?

Damn outplayed

biggad2001Apr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Damn outplayed

Srs note tho, i DONT think sups are in a good spot, yet.

HateDaddyApr 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Srs note tho, i DONT think sups are in a good spot, yet.

You're drunk

biggad2001Apr 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You're drunk

I aint, as someone maining sup yet climbing as jungle it says enough

HateDaddyApr 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I aint, as someone maining sup yet climbing as jungle it says enough

It's becasue supports generally don't carry. The role isn't designed to be a carry role, it's designed to help your carries get to their carry potential and in turn, almost every support has huge game changing potential in their kits.

biggad2001Apr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's becasue supports generally don't carry. The role isn't designed to be a carry role, it's designed to help your carries get to their carry potential and in turn, almost every support has huge game changing potential in their kits.

They do, but as long as they got no objective control they are just weaker

I went 83% w/l on nunu, a pseudo support, simply cause ''HE CAN TAKE OBJECTIVES''

HateDaddyApr 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

They do, but as long as they got no objective control they are just weaker

I went 83% w/l on nunu, a pseudo support, simply cause ''HE CAN TAKE OBJECTIVES''

Well given the power the have in everything else, they don't need objective control. That's not something that's supposed to be constant in their role, there's a reason for that.

biggad2001Apr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well given the power the have in everything else, they don't need objective control. That's not something that's supposed to be constant in their role, there's a reason for that.

Yeh, but it holds em back in solo que with shitty teams^

HateDaddyApr 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Yeh, but it holds em back in solo que with shitty teams^

Meh, there's not much you can do about that. Some support champs can carry, pick up Zyra support. People think it's still weak for some reason.

item 3092 item 3020 item 3151

Congrats you've hit late game aoe gibbing entire teams

biggad2001Apr 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Meh, there's not much you can do about that. Some support champs can carry, pick up Zyra support. People think it's still weak for some reason.

Congrats you've hit late game aoe gibbing entire teams

zyrafreelo

Champion SkinApr 25, 20151 votes

And if you are rich you can also buy item 3135 (if they get some MR) or you could get item 3116

The SoulforgedApr 25, 20154 votes

Depends on the support

DrackolusApr 25, 20154 votes

I think they're in a less bad spot than before, but not an ideal one. I like your compelling argument for why you believe support is in a great spot.

What in the actual fuck lol

qetzelApr 25, 20151 votes

It convinced me!

ChargeItDownMidApr 24, 20153 votes

[deleted]

ZmuecatApr 25, 20151 votes

Yeah, I've seen an okay amount of Bard posts, again because bard.

Other threads I've seen were about Soraka I think, specifically her passive or how W effects builds and maybe how to improve it. There was also an old Sona thread that was bumped.

The last one I'd consider support related as a whole was alterations to ambient gold. There's also a bunch of Annie threads now, because people are getting up in arms about her passive stun for reasons.

GhiefelsteinApr 25, 20151 votes

That post about changing ambient gold was probably mine. I don't think supports are in a bad spot, but it is still worth discussing how the role could be improved.

Gold flow. Is the amount of gold supports get in a game fair?
Experience. Is it fair that supports are generally underleveled?
Mage supports. What place in the game do Karma, Zyra, Morgana, etc. have?
Utility scaling. Is it doing what it should do, and why doesn't Bard have utility scaling?
Active items. Is the sheer number of active items desirable for the support role?

Discussing the future of supports belongs on Gameplay & Balance and I don't understand why OP has a problem with that.

HateDaddyApr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That post about changing ambient gold was probably mine. I don't think supports are in a bad spot, but it is still worth discussing how the role could be improved.

Gold flow. Is the amount of gold supports get in a game fair?

Experience. Is it fair that supports are generally underleveled?

Mage supports. What place in the game do Karma, Zyra, Morgana, etc. have?

Utility scaling. Is it doing what it should do, and why doesn't Bard have utility scaling?

Active items. Is the sheer number of active items desirable for the support role?

Discussing the future of supports belongs on Gameplay & Balance and I don't understand why OP has a problem with that.

Because the support role is fine and riot literally dedicated 3 seasons to making it strong. You can pose some of these questions but the answer ultimately should end being that they're fine and need very little help at this point. Meanwhile, fighters as a class are FINALLY starting to get some attention when they've needed it for 3 seasons +.

HateDaddyApr 25, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I've seen an okay amount of Bard posts, again because bard.

Other threads I've seen were about Soraka I think, specifically her passive or how W effects builds and maybe how to improve it. There was also an old Sona thread that was bumped.

The last one I'd consider support related as a whole was alterations to ambient gold. There's also a bunch of Annie threads now, because people are getting up in arms about her passive stun for reasons.

Annie is pretty lame tbh, I'd be fine with nerfs to her

Ambient gold is fine, supports get so much power in their itemization. A zero farm champ shouldn't exactly be able to build on par with farm champions.

Sona is fine, she does not need a single buff. But Sona players have victim complexes because it baffles them that people think playing against a heavy sustain, high damage poking (and she can still chunk the shit out of people) champ with a powerful post 6 All-in is pretty lame.

Soraka is weird, I think she's potentially OP actually. It's just that she literally went from being one of the lowest skill cap, lowest decision making based champion to an extremely difficult champion with several decision points.

Rinky DinkyApr 25, 20153 votes

Implying Sona has sustain.

60 hp (At the most, will be 40 usually) for 80 mana is so fucking OP so much sustain.

Oh wait.

Miku Hime samaApr 25, 20152 votes

You're using the pre-4.20 values, Sona's max heal is 45 now with an average of about 35.

Rinky DinkyApr 25, 20151 votes

Ah shit so it is even worse than what I just said, pushing my point even further.

LankPantsApr 25, 20153 votes

heavy sustain

Have you ever stopped to look at the value of Sona's heal? She's not got "heavy sustain", her sustain is worse than Taric's.

Her rank 1 heal heals for 30-45 HP at the cost of 80 mana. This increases to 100-165 for 100 at max rank.

To compare that to other supports

Taric : 60/84 for 60 rank 1 220/308 for 140 rank 5 Scales with bonus HP

Nami : (initial) 65 for 70 rank 1 185 for 130 rank 5 More likely to be maxed as it gives offensive presence

Kayle : 60 for 60 rank 1 240 for 100 rank 5

I'm not going to compare to Soraka because she has other disadvantages tied to her heal.

At the moment Sona is 100% outclassed by Nami. There's no reason to ever pick Sona over Nami.

Miku Hime samaApr 25, 20153 votes

You missed a few others, I'll complete the chart for you:

Nidalee 45 for 75 rank 1 205 for 120 rank 5 Its scaling is more than double Sona's and she's a carry champ that's allowed to stack obscene amounts of AP

Bard 30/70 for 100 rank 1 150/230 for 120 rank 5 Bard doesn't have to use this immediately, he can ferment 3 simultaneously to heal probably up 6 times as much as Sona if need be. With a mana-regen passive and higher base stats across the table, it's been said since release that he's just a blatantly superior version to her, much the same as Nami.

Alistar 60+30X for 40 rank 1 180+90X for 80 rank 5 All coupled with harder CC, including a displacement and a massive ult for easy dives. Not to mention he can use Relic Shield effectively, which at base 40 also heals more than Sona, but for free.

You may not want to compare Soraka due to her HP costs, but it's necessary for a complete comparison. We can let people decide for themselves how much of an impact that has on her kit. Soraka 120 for 20 mana + 10% HP rank 1 240 for 40 mana + 10% HP rank 5 It's also worth noting that Soraka's heal has the highest AP scaling and lowest cooldown amongst all 8 healers. Not to mention a global ult for more healing that also removes Grievous Wounds.

So as a matter-of-fact, Sona's base is the lowest at both ranks 1 AND 5, even at max % scaling. Meanwhile being tied for the lowest scaling and having the highest mana cost at level 1 whence mana-gening is at its most inaccessible.

Tis a nice dayApr 25, 20152 votes

As a support main no they are all fine, but if the complaints mean supports receiving buffs, then I'm not going to bother disagreeing with the naysayers.

Since most people don't seem too alarmed with supports getting a bit stronger (given that they can't quite snowball a game as hard as any of the other classes), opposition to the "supports are in a bad spot" people tends to be low.

Champion SkinApr 25, 20151 votes

Supports earn more then ever before with assist sprees/streaks (giving up to 60 bonus gold on each assist) and the gold items and that supports doesn't have to buy lots and lots of wards to cover the entire map in (though of course supports still have to use their gold on a support item and a sightstone)

Emmy Cha0sApr 25, 20151 votes

They'd have more gold if Frostfang weren't unjustifiably nerfed. As it stands, buying it puts you behind your enemy laner and the procs logically can never pay for the upgrading cost. Unless you're a die-hard fan of FQC's active, Edge should always be left as a rank 1 item all game until it's sold for a 6th item or 5th item to make room for pinks.

Champion SkinApr 25, 20151 votes

Well it will pay for itself if you proc it constantly for the next 16 min and 40 seconds which is 100 procs (+ the extra stats you get) Though yes it isn't all that great...

Oh one could possibly instead of going for a sightstone go for upgraded yellow trinket however this requires level 9 and you won't be able to have a sweeper and you might have some problems replacing the wards if they are destroyed or you have to quickly move them

Tis a nice dayApr 25, 20151 votes

Frostfang's still the #1 gold producing item for supports.

Emmy Cha0sApr 27, 20151 votes

Not according to analysts. Taking stats from countless games pitting Frostfang vs Spellthief, over 90% of the time Frostfang sets the user behind so far, they reach EVERY item point several minutes later than just keeping Spellthief. With the nerf removing increased ambient gold and the 100% reliance on procs just to make up for the loss, laning phase needs to continue until something like 30 minutes. I don't know about you, but I don't even remember the last time I saw that happen.

GloriousKaiserApr 25, 20152 votes

GD cancer leaking into G&B

biggad2001Apr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

GD cancer leaking into G&B

GnB is 95% low elo, its cancer already

Baron of BreadApr 25, 20151 votes

The support role as a whole seems fine to me in that it has champions that are designed to go with it and they can impact a game from that position. However, the big reason that there are some champions that are more-or-less dedicated to supporting is that they can be effective without having much in the way of gold or experience. So the judgement on whether the support role is in a good spot is dependent on what your prerequisites for being a good spot are.

Basically if you think supports need to be able to do their job then yes they are fine; if you think they should get similar amounts of gold and experience to the other roles then they aren't.

Miku Hime samaApr 25, 20152 votes

However, the big reason that there are some champions that are more-or-less dedicated to supporting is that they can be effective without having much in the way of gold or experience.

The reason some champions are forced to support is because Riot gutted supports' sclaings in the pre-season 4 "rework." Hence why now it's become almost mandatory that if a support wishes to scale past laning, they have to look towards artificial scalings like Lich Bane or Echo which do misleading amounts of damage that players fool themselves into believing is part of that champion's damage.

Baron of BreadApr 25, 20151 votes

You are looking at only damage scaling there, and a lot of supports are not focused on damage. No matter how starved a Blitzcrank is, if they grab the enemy ADC they won a teamfight. No matter how little gold an Alistar has he can still peel like a monster. Lulu can still get some solid cc and peels down without a boat load of AP.

Yes, they mostly have lower ratios, but that usually goes along with higher bases or utility.

Emmy Cha0sApr 27, 20151 votes

Except, how often do you see a Blitz going into a solo-lane? It's been a long time since those few weeks where Alistar was pick/ban. Lulu is a different story entirely, especially considering she was probably the only support that could be considered "buffed" by the support "rework."

Baron of BreadApr 28, 20151 votes

True, you don't see Alistar or Blitz solo lane much (I still see it sometimes). You also don't see Zed support much though. Support is a role like the others, some champs fit it well and aren't very good elsewhere.