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Why was Zhonya's Hourglass nerfed?

JavelinJoe··5 votes·1,112 views

As an item it now has 30 less AP, +10% CDR and 18 seconds more onto the active's CD and this costs about 500 gold less. Note that I am treating it as a stand alone Item, and not as part of a 6 item build. All this is calculated as if it was the only item you had.

30 AP alone is worth more than 500 gold. item 1052 = 20 AP for 435 gold (item 1052 *2) * 0.75 = 652.5 gold, 30 AP 30 AP = 652.5 gold

What about the 10% CDR? item 3024 = 25 armor, 250 mana, 10% CDR for 1000 gold item 3024 - item 1027 = 25 amor, 650 gold item 1029 = 15 armor for 300 gold 15/3 = 5 300 gold /3 = 100 gold 5 armor = 100 gold 25/5 = 5 100 gold * 5 = 500 gold 650 gold - 500 gold = 150 gold 10% CDR = 150 gold

Original cost = 3500 gold New Cost = 3000 gold 3500 gold - 652.5 gold + 150 gold = 2997.5. gold Making 30 AP barely not worth 10% CDR + 500 gold cost wise by 2.5 gold, but who cares about 2.5 gold really, so good job RIOT. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

But... now there is an additional 30 seconds of CD on the active thus making the overall CD 120 seconds instead of 90 seconds. This creates an imbalance between Losses and Gains with more lost (- 30 AP, +30 seconds CD on active) than gain (+10% CDR). And as found out before, 30 AP = 10% CDR + 500 gold. So unless a 30 second gain on an active cooldown is worth only 2.5 gold (which in no way, shape, or form is), Zhonya's Hourglass would be a nerfed item if this version is released as projected.

But that leaves me with the question, Why? It already was an item built more for the Active than the damage stats. So reducing the damage stats and increasing the cooldown of its Active seems a bit harsh. Especially since it is one of the only defensive items a Mage can buy and it is THE ONLY AP item that gives armor too. Now rushing it, because Zed or whoever AD assassin you are against keeps on nuking you since you are squishy with no armor, feels even worse as a Mage. It is like saying "Hmm, I dont think AD assassins have enough kill potential on squishy AP mages. Lets try and fix that by nerfing that one item available to them that can counter an all while not disrupting a build path".

34 Comments

Fondling Gems1 votes

Keep in mind that you also get the active a lot sooner. It was less of a nerf and more changing the focus of the item as well as making it more available early on. True the stats including passive make it less efficient, but being able to buy the completed item sooner vs a zed is a big deal.

JavelinJoe1 votes

While true that sooner is better, you have to keep in mind that item 3156 is only 250 gold more than Zhonya's will be and that has much more useful stats to counter a Mage with than the new Zhonya's gives for countering AD assassins like Zed.

Fondling Gems1 votes

have you seen that in lieu of the maw rebalance/nerf? maw provides more anti AP stats, but fewer offensive stats than zhonyas, and the passives are comparable in usefulness.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I agree that the passives are comparable 100%. But Maw still is better offensivly since it not only has 55 AD (when compared to 70 AP it is still better because every champion starts with around 50 something AD while 0 AP). Also, you get 10 armor pen on Maw while no magic pen on Zhonya's, thus further placing Maw's damage output higher than Zhonya's. Not to mention the passive which grants both a shield and provides sustain until out of combat. I can say that the 10% CDR is nice with Zhonya's and AP champions in general, but if we are comparing the two items, I still say Maw beets Zhonya's in the fact that while you are locked down in the Zhonya's active, someone with maw can either run, reposition, or regen by using the sustain it gives and is not forced to be rooted and unable to do anything if the enemy surrounds them.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Yes but in teamfights hourglass>maw because your team can back you up. You get the useful active earlier, as well as the stats in general. The stats are worse than maw but in comparison the active scales into the late game and is exceptionally power on certain champs.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I believe that it is more situational than universal when it come to teamfighting. While yes, Zhonya's typically is more useful on a general level, I would still argue that Maw can be just as and sometimes maybe more since it allows you to continue to output damage and not be in stasis for 2.5 seconds. Setting champion synergies aside, I would argue that it depends on enemy team comp overall. If no assassins / dive champs are on the other side, then zhonyas may not be necessary. Where as if no burst or high scaling AP threats are present, then Maw is not needed. Both of which compleatly remove the passive's / active's necessity and leaves the raw stats left to compare in which I would say that Maw is better offensive while Zhonya's is better defensive.

I think we may actually be arguing different concepts here. I am looking at an overall raw offensive/defensive usefulness based on stats and gameplay for both items. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are arguing how relevant to a champion's survival and kit each item is. Both are similar topics but they differ in their respective focuses. One is of the items and their stats and gameplay (mine), the other is of their importance in situations that may occur (yours).

Fondling Gems1 votes

I am definitely taking into account that hourglass has more synergies than maw. Your original question was why hourglass is getting nerfed so lets refocus on that.

Hourglass is still gold efficient but trades overall stats for the ability to complete the item much sooner. As hg is best vs ad assassins I feel as though getting those defensive stats sooner (and as such reducing the assassin's kill potential) makes up for the fact that the item is now weaker in a full build, something that is rare in any case. The cdr on the item also helps out considering how hard it was to hit the cdr cap on a mid lane mage.

As such I feel as though the item is still very efficient and will, if anything, see more use. Also keep in mind all the item numbers are still subject to change.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I can agree with sooner the better. And CDR is nice. And it is subject to change.

I still think it is a nerf though since they increased the active's CD by 30 seconds which is not affected by CDR.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Personally I prefer the 10% cdr over 30 seconds. I will agree that in a technical sense it is definitely a nerf, but I also feel that playerwise it depends on personal preference and playstyle.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Because it is and always has been the strongest item in the game because of its OP active, amazing stats and convenient build path?

JavelinJoe1 votes

while true that the active is one of the best, I would not call it the strongest because unless your team is there to back you up it usually ends up just delays your inevitable death, at least that is my opinion about it.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

In which case it has nothing to do with the item and everything to do with the player misplaying. And even then it likely resulted in your team coming in to clean the rest up or bought them more time to take an objective or something. The ability to waste someones time should not go disrespected, even if you end up dying in the end.

Name one active in the game that is equally as or more powerful than Zhonyas Stasis. None even come close. It is literally an invincibility button.

JavelinJoe2 votes

item 3139 Removes all debuffs and grants 50% Movement Speed (Active) item 3222 Removes all Debuffs and heals for 150 + 10% max health (Active) item 3156 Negates AP bursts with a massive shield and grants 10% lifesteal and spell vamp until you leave combat (Passive which is even better since it works if under CC) item 3053 Grants a Shield of 30% max health and a 25% base damage buff, on top of the already 25% from the item alone. (Passive which i even better since it works if under CC) item 3026 Basically the same thing except you potentially get more health and mana once you exit.

Sorry, while yes it is a great active, it is not the best since many of these items still allow you to fight or escape and not be dormant for 2.5 seconds.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Removes all debuffs and grants 50% Movement Speed (Active)

Zhonyas lets you dodge, ignore, avoid all spells and debuffs all together before they even hit you.

Removes all Debuffs and heals for 150 + 10% max health (Active)

First, it isnt all debuffs. its only Disables. Second, it is litterally a pretty shit item outside of the active and in very cost inefficient. Whats more is that it cant be self used since you will be CC'd, meaning it is completely in the hands of your teammate to do it or not, making it unreliable in comparison.

Negates AP bursts with a massive shield and grants 10% lifesteal and spell vamp until you leave combat (Passive which is even better since it works if under CC)

LOL. it isn't massive. Quit lying to yourself. Even then it isn't as powerful as Stasis. Not even close. Who are you trying to kid? And most of the benefits you listed are basically pointless under said CC. And this is a passive, not an active. No it does not make it better, because you have little control over it.

Grants a Shield of 30% max health and a 25% base damage buff, on top of the already 25% from the item alone. (Passive which i even better since it works if under CC)

Again, it is a passive, which does not make it better, because you have little control over it. And especially after the thing got nerfed, it isn't nearly as stat efficient and is mostly pidgeon held into specific high base AD champs.

Basically the same thing except you potentially get more health and mana once you exit.

Lol no. First of all, GA is a purely defensive item as opposed to Zhonyas. And stat wise, it isn't even all that great. Secondly, it requires you to die meaning you have little control over it and people can see that you have the passive up. So they can and will avoid you if need be. Lastly, once it pops it goes on a VERY long CD unlike Zhonyas.

Sorry, while yes it is a great active, it is not the best since many of these items still allow you to fight or escape and not be dormant for 2.5 seconds.

Keep telling yourself that but none of those even compare.

Tho i will say item 3139 is indeed overtuned imo and has been for a long time(for very similar reasons), yet Riot keeps needlessly buffing it. It will likely see nerfs eventually and Ill be here telling the smuck who insists it isn't the same thing I'm telling you.

There is no reason such a powerful active should be on an item that specs so hard into offense while giving good defense. It's stupid. And it the case of Zhonya's it is easily the best Active in the game. Hell, I'd argue it is the best Passive in the game period, especially since we have an analog in Bard to show what it is comparable to spellwise.

JavelinJoe1 votes

There is no reason such a powerful active should be on an item that specs so hard into offense while giving good defense. it's stupid.

Chough* Zhonyas is nearly identical in offensive/defensive power

but you seem too adamant on your opinion and cant accept other's so i'll drop it at that

ChaddyFantome1 votes

What is this supposed to even mean? Do you deny that Zhonya's gives a ridiculous amount of offensive stats on top of the defensive ones and the active?

I still remember back when it gave as much AP as Deathcap and DFG.

but you seem too adamant on your opinion and cant accept other's so i'll drop it at that

irony much? It is not my job to defend your position, it is yours. I have no obligation to agree with you or "accept your opinion" if i genuinely find it doesn't hold up. The only one being adamant here is you.

All this is is a weak attempt at trying to save face since you ran out of arguments.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I do deny it, 70 AP isn't a whole lot and 10% CDR also isn't much. IF we're speaking about 100 AP then yes it is more than normal and is a good deal of offensive power, but that is its only offensive stat then. 45 armor is nothing. It is 5 more than item 1031. The Active is great when you want to avoid damage I have never said it was not great. All I said is that it isn't The Best. It is not Number 1 of all defensive items. That is item 3139, since it has the same initial "cleanse" that Zhonya's gives, while not removing you from the fight temporarily. Also it gives high AD (75 AD is far better than 70 AP when you look at averages for each type that items gives. 75 AD is one of the highest while 70 AP is more mid way), some MR, and sustain with its 10% lifesteal. The active also gives 50% movement speed for 1 second on use to aid in escaping, repositioning, or re-engaging and can be used under any circumstance unlike Zhonya's where you can not be suppressed (like under a malzahar ultimate).

ChaddyFantome1 votes

I do deny it, 70 AP isn't a whole lot and 10% CDR also isn't much.

You are seriously underplaying how valuable and more powerfully 70 AP is. 70 AP is only 10 less than item 3151 item 3100 item 3165 item 3115 item 3135 , is 10 MORE than item 3174. You need to understand that AP in general as a stat is more powerful and scales harder than AD. And 10 CDR not much? Hello? Were you expecting it to give you 20 CDR on top of the active? You serious? 10 CDR is a perfectly serviceable amount. it is the baseline of CDR. there is only 40 % oF CDR you are getting and or ever need to build.

Zhonya's has and always will be bought for 2 reasons. The Armor and the build path that helps mages build against AD threats during lane phase, which then transitions into Zhonya's which is bought for the active. Not the offensive stats. Its overkill and it is a similar reason as to why Maw is being nerfed repeatedly right now and rightly to despite it being primarily a bruiser item.

45 armor is nothing.

its only 5 less than figgin item 3742 item 3068 . Hello? Those are straight tank/bruiser items in terms of Armor. On a MAGE class item.

It is not Number 1 of all defensive items. That is item 3139 , since it has the same initial "cleanse" that Zhonya's gives, while not removing you from the fight temporarily. Also it gives high AD (75 AD is far better than 70 AP when you look at averages for each type that items gives. 75 AD is one of the highest while 70 AP is more mid way), some MR, and sustain with its 10% lifesteal. The active also gives 50% movement speed for 1 second on use to aid in escaping, repositioning, or re-engaging and can be used under any circumstance unlike Zhonya's where you can not be suppressed (like under a malzahar ultimate).

No it isn't. The best CC in the game is death. Removing 1 CC is not as powerful as becoming invincible and immune to all damage and CC for ~3 seconds. The use of the active is also only used to remove 1 CC and is far more limited in use in general compared to Zhonya's. The active of item 3139 is almost only really chased after as a counterpick option and the prevalence of the item has more to do with countering Zed than the item itself despite it being blatantly overpowered. Zhonya's has for more general and multipurpose uses and power than item 3139. Mercurial is good for 1 thing and 1 thing only.

Suppression is a weak argument as there are only 4 in the game and Zhonya's can prevent you from being suppressed all together before it even happens. Also, 1 second of MS is nothing in therms of a general re-engage tool. All it really is good for is making a brief window of escape and re-positioning. Again, in contrast, Zhonya's lets you be invincible and untargetable for ~3 seconds.

Ive already stated that mercurial is OP for very similar reasons and does deserve to be nerfed, but claiming it's better than Zhonyas is laughable still. Zhonya's currently gives as much AP as item 3285 while giving you almost as much armor asitem 3068 item 3742 with an instant self cast Bard Ult active.

Mercurial gives you the AD of item 3812 but only gives you a poultry 35 MR which is less than item 1057 +10 Lifesteal which is a item 1053 and a summoner 1 active.

The only thing OP about Mercurial is its stupid high AD for a defensive item.

Both are strong and overtuned but one is blatantly more overturned than the other.

item 3139 AD ratio will hopefully be brought into line as well eventually, but to claim it is more OP than Zhonya's seems like blatant bullet dodging tactics. And a weak one at that.

A team fight lasts roughly 5 seconds. Zhonya's lets you be invincible for about half a fucking teamfight.

I can always just CC someone who used item 3140 with something else.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Zhonya's leaves you vulnerable when you leave stasis and 3 seconds is more than enough time for an enemy to reposition and wait to re engage you.

What I meant by 45 armor isnt much is that there are many more options for armor pen than magic pen:

item 3147 item 3036 item 3156 item 3033 item 3134 item 3071 item 3142 compared to item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 item 3001 (dont forget that this now scales with level the amount of magic resist reduction it gives)

And in addition, MR for ADs is more available than Armor for APs

item 3156 item 3026 item 3060 item 3190 item 3139 to item 3157 item 3026

Also I can't think of a single champion who has a passive that grants magic pen besides Kayle, who only applies when hit, and needs to be stacked while also only lowering the enemy's MR and Armor by 3% each stack for up to 5 stacks, or 15%. This is not like how Darius just has up to 25% armor pen at all times. You have to stack it and it only goes up to 15%. Note: I do not count abilities that reduce the armor/mr pen. I am simply counting passives that are always applied regardless of abilities.

10 MORE than item 3174

Athene's is looking at an AP nerf as well (60->40) btw

AP scales better and comes in higher amounts because most champions do not scale AP naturally (meaning it has a base value of more than 0 at level 1). It is predominantly a purchased stat unlike AD whom every champion scales naturally.

I still deny that 70 AP is a lot and consider it to be average. item 3285 item 3089 item 3116 item 3027 all can cap 100+ AP, just like how item 3147 item 3812 item 3072 item 3139 are the highest possible AD items and only cap at 75 AD. While yes, AD values are on a much closer scale, they are smaller amounts than AP. A good comparison is item 1026 and item 1037 40AP to 25AD for roughly the same price (25 gold more on the pickaxe). You have to look at how the stats are used to really compare them though. AD means every basic attack is stronger by a strict amount, usually 100% AD. Whereas almost every use of AP is a percentage of the total AP (usually lower than 100% but there are some who have more than 100% also). Can you imagine how overpowered AD would be to AP if all items gave the same amounts (25 AD = 25 AP)? AP would be abandoned on the spot by everyone who did not scale +100% AP. 70 AP is like 50-55 AD in terms of power gained. Basically it is on the low side of the power spectrum of completed items.

Also, Zhonya's core items will give it better AP stats than the completed item itself. item 3191 + item 1058 is a potential 95 AP. 20+15 AP on seeker's and 60 on NLR.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Zhonya's leaves you vulnerable when you leave stasis and 3 seconds is more than enough time for an enemy to reposition and wait to re engage you.

Yes, badly using an active will get you fucked over. More news at 11.

What I meant by 45 armor isnt much is that there are many more options for armor pen than magic pen:

There is also far more Armor in the game than MR and far more AP vs MR than AD vs Armor. MR is also the defensive stat champs innately have less of and unlike the LW upgrades, VoidStaff ignores total defense instead of bonus stats. Armor also scales per level unlike MR.

You are looking at it in a vacuum.

Also I can't think of a single champion who has a passive that grants magic pen besides Kayle, who only applies when hit, and needs to be stacked while also only lowering the enemy's MR and Armor by 3% each stack for up to 5 stacks, or 15%. This is not like how Darius just has up to 25% armor pen at all times. You have to stack it and it only goes up to 15%. Note: I do not count abilities that reduce the armor/mr pen. I am simply counting passives that are always applied regardless of abilities.

Fiddlesticks

Athene's is looking at an AP nerf as well (60->40) btw

Oh i am aware/for the purpose of the item now, it seems rather reasonable. It's basically a support item now.

AP scales better and comes in higher amounts because most champions do not scale AP naturally (meaning it has a base value of more than 0 at level 1). It is predominantly a purchased stat unlike AD whom every champion scales naturally.

So you acknowledge that the two stats are significantly different and should not be looked at side by side in a vacuum without forethought and perceptive?

Good. let's continue.

I still deny that 70 AP is a lot and consider it to be average.

I didn't say 70 was a lot. I said that 100 AP is a lot. let us not even speak of the days when it gave as much as Dcap. The purpose of the item considered. 70 is actually a very servicable amount, being only 10 under item 3003. Especially given how powerful its active is and how much Armor it gives.

While yes, AD values are on a much closer scale, they are smaller amounts than AP. A good comparison is item 1026 and item 1037 40AP to 25AD for roughly the same price (25 gold more on the pickaxe).

I actually find it kind if absurd that the Pickaxe of the two is the more expenive but I digress.

If we use your example. then you are proving my point. item 3089 is the equivalent of item 3031 yet only gives 65 compared to the 120 plus the innate AP it gives itself.

If you want the math. item 3089 gives 3 times as much AP as item 1026 while item 3031 gives less than 3 times as much AD as item 1037 Despite both being the class representative multiplier items.

Aditionally, the Crit multiplier requires that crit be bought instead of more AD similar to item 3089 , which is a damage amp that is static as opposed to Crit which in RNG.

This bonus on Crits also only applies to Autos if they happen to crit, whereas every Ap scaling including those from items and actives benefit from AP since it is giving you Raw stats. ..and then giving you raw stats for having raw stats.

It also needs Attack speed to be benefited instead of AD, which doesn't directly benefit every AD champ and is mostly reserved for marksman and Melee carries like Yi and Yasuo.

I also don't like how you lumped all those AD items together. They, unlike the AP items aren't being bought on the same champions, item 3147 being limited mostly to a handful and basically being a supplement to the ADC changes that screwed them over to begin with.

In short, despite being less effective for the stat, item 3089 gives less comparative stats than item 3031, while giving the player a new stat it has to supplement to get the most out of whereas item 3089 is innately effective and simply gives the player more of the raw stat for having said stat and continuing to build its stat.

As for item 3139 , that thing has been busted for a long time now, for similar reasons as Zhonya's, but is still more situational than it since it is mostly bought as a counter item whereas Zhonya's is almost ubiquitously bought by all APs across the board.

The amount of AP any champ can typically get with 4 items reaches more than double the AD a champ could ever hope to get at full build unless their name is Jhin, and unless you benefit from Crits, you get no multipliers like AP does.

Like I said earlier, you seem to understand that the two are very different, so you should also know that looking at aspects of the two in vacuums is silly.

Also, Zhonya's core items will give it better AP stats than the completed item itself. item 3191 + item 1058 is a potential 95 AP. 20+15 AP on seeker's and 60 on NLR.

This is a legit issue. I think it can be remedied by either adjusting item 3191 or making item 3157 build out ofitem 3108 . The latter would be preferable too since the CDR kind of comes out of nowhere, and it really bugs me, lol.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Fid only applies magic resist reduction with abilities, not just overall like Kayle does (albeit only to champions) which is the only reason why I left him out.

Finally we can agree on something. That being Zhonya's ap loss and random CDR is an issue. I actually finished a concept post about this. Your idea with item 3108 was a good idea except you still lose 15 AP and have no armor source (unless you still add item 1029 to the build). Here is the link to my idea: link

Also I fear for item 3174 and that it will become the next item 3504 and only be used on Soraka and maybe Sona.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

To hold on for a second, Darius does not have 25% ignore at all times. He has to max his E to get that. To the point tho, Back in my day, Fiddle's pasive was actually like a item 3001 passive. I didnt know they changed it.

Even then, that is hardly a point to get all up in arms about. Its 1 champion.

Second

Finally we can agree on something. That being Zhonya's ap loss and random CDR is an issue.

I dont find this an issue. I find its building parts giving more stats and having the player lose stats upon finishing it to be an issue. It's counter intuitive.

I was actually suggesting having it build out of item 3191 anditem 3108 . Having it build out of item 1058 is actually kind of false advertising now.

Also I fear for and that it will become the next and only be used on and maybe.

I'm pretty sure item 3174 gets bought about as much as item 3504 right now if not more. This change won't really shift that. If anything, it risks overshadowing item 3504 .

The problem wit item 3504 is it just needs a bit more stats. nothing more.

My opinion of the item 3174 changes are still the same. it will most likely be used on HealSupports more than Buff supports. This doesn't change much since they were already buying item 3028 into item 3174 to begin with.

The positive aspect of this is it gives Mages like Lux andKarma a fallback option if they are doing a bit weak in lane or aren't effective at nuking people in the particular match, as most of the time, they would be relegated to secondary support anyway. This gives them a more appropriate transitioning item in comparison to straight support items.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Ah, I misunderstood then. I thought you still wanted NLR in the build. But then the item price would be very high from its core items (1000 gold on top of the two) while that is how it is now, 1000+ gold, I think that they wanted the gap to be closer more towards around 500 gold.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Just looked at your example. The problem mostly stems form the fact that Seekers Armguard is being replaced in your example, and it is the caviat in the transitioning into the Zhonya's and basically exists for this very purpose. there is a reason the thing doesn't build out of anything else, lol.

I considered adding an item 1052 to the recipe actually, but decided against it since it would result in less AP if item 3191 is fully stacked.

A compromise that could be made is to lower/remove the AP stacking on it but then compensations would have to be made on the item. And I don't know a feasible way of doing that.

DrNova1 votes

{quoted}

In which case it has nothing to do with the item and everything to do with the player misplaying. And even then it likely resulted in your team coming in to clean the rest up or bought them more time to take an objective or something. The ability to waste someones time should not go disrespected, even if you end up dying in the end.

Name one active in the game that is equally as or more powerful than Zhonyas Stasis. None even come close. It is literally an invincibility button.

Its not that powerful an active. Outside fiddle and morg ults, it makes you useless. You can't cast, can't move. That is a massive downside people like to forget about.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

it isn't a downside because the intended purpose of the item isn't to be tryndemere. The intended purpose is to create a window for your team to peal of save you, because, guess what, there is more to this game than the 1v1 situation.

DrNova1 votes

{quoted}

it isn't a downside because the intended purpose of the item isn't to be tryndemere. The intended purpose is to create a window for your team to peal of save you, because, guess what, there is more to this game than the 1v1 situation.

But with the power budget being centered around that active, they are hurting its other stats, for what? The one in 5 times you use it and may live? If that's its core function, its horribly priced and doesn't offer enough stats to justify buying it for the active. It barely was worth it before. Mostly just bought as the ONLY option for mids against current ad. It was bought because seekers gave a little armor and later you could count on some solid ap. The active was nice but not the reason to purchase.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

But with the power budget being centered around that active, they are hurting its other stats, for what? To balance it. It having such ridiculous stats was a band-aid for them poorly balancing Assasins back in S3. The stats have been steadily lowered since then. Power budget isn't chosen and designated. If you acknowledge that its being balanced around it's active, you effectively accept that the item is over-tuned.

The one in 5 times you use it and may live? If that's its core function, its horribly priced and doesn't offer enough stats to justify buying it for the active. It barely was worth it before. Mostly just bought as the ONLY option for mids against current ad. It was bought because seekers gave a little armor and later you could count on some solid ap. The active was nice but not the reason to purchase.

Rofl no. The active and armor on an AP item in general, were the primary reasons it was bought. The fact that it gave so much AP was overkill.

You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Vistha Kai1 votes

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/10/1079157f12492df25e32332b918a850de9d513fb85906206befb05d7ac3afa07.jpg

Nekusen1 votes

Im actually in favor of this, they are making it more of an utility item by lowering the damage and increasing its... well, utility.

My objection about this item changes is that mages are getting WAY less AP, so unless they want to make mages into masters of utility or something, they should add more items that are all about getting dat damage. Sure, as items are cheaper you are getting them sooner, but that means HUGE nerfs to AP lategame.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Made this exact argument in another post I wrote. I won't be surprised if even a Fed LeBlanc can't do shit by 30 minutes.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Technically that stats scale just as well until you hit full build. The stat to gold is about the same so it only falls off after all your slots are full.

Vistha Kai1 votes

At least with the reduced price you will get it before 5th death to Zed. /s

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