Garen is an icon of LOL but a person who only spectates pros would never know he exists

Moody P·Mar 8, 2019·13 votes·4,401 views

Why are we okay with this?

Ignoring the fact that Garen is COMPLETE dog shit right now, why was he serviced with such a terrible rework that just doled out nerfs to almost everything he has in exchange for a shit true damage gimmick? Why is Riot okay with designing champions that are so limited and one dimensional and completely removed from REAL league of legends that they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of appearing in any serious games? Why are we okay with relegating champions to pub stomping not even general soloQ; Garen is exclusively for bodying Silver and below players and then gets dramatically weaker the higher you go until he vanishes completely.

When is Garen getting a GOOD rework?

55 Comments

ChrisBrownzeMar 8, 20196 votes

Garen is a basic champion designed to teach you the fundamentals. His kit is easily mastered so that lower level players can start focusing on more higher level game concepts such as wave manipulation and map rotations. Not every single champ has to be viable in pro play. Some can simply be used as champions that allow you to learn to play the game properely.

The fact that there are players in grandmaster that have gotten there with Garen shows that you can get to the top 0.1% of players with garen which means if you choose to learn the game with Garen you dont have to quit Garen once you climb to a certain rank. I think Garen is accomplishing his purpose in the top lane and there are plenty of other champs that much more desperately need a rework.

MyrmironMar 8, 20195 votes

??? Grandmaster Garen main: https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=riste

Moody PMar 8, 20197 votes

Grandmaster isn't pros and even riste concludes that Garen is far from strong right now and he wants at the very least an update to E and Villainy.

Riste gets where he is because he's a fantastic player with an extremely good grasp of the fundamentals of League. That's not a statement on whether or not Garen is actually serviceable right now.

AbiwonKenabiMar 8, 20193 votes

I'm not saying I disagree with your statement, but Grandmaster is full of pros and players who can go toe to toe with pros. Some champions are just better suited for organized play and some thrive in solo queue. I don't think this necessarily bad. Someone like Ryze works way better in organized play and Champions like Darius work better with solo queue.

I agree that pubstomp Champions are bad, but purely being better in solo queue is not inherently bad. Plus the pros are always going to play the best of the best Champs with some limited personal preferences, whereas the average player is just going to play what they like, even if they aren't the best option.

Moody PMar 8, 20191 votes

IMO if a champion completely vanishes from viability at the highest level of play (which includes voice comms) then there is a problem with that champion

Garen is grossly underloaded and doesn't offer anything in terms of a strategic pick. You pick him just because you like to play him but that shouldn't be the only reason to play a character in a strategy game

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20195 votes

Disagree. Not every champion has to be viable in the highest level of play. If you want to achieve that, then we have to remove every "simple" kit from the game and rework everything into some kind of Azir clone, having extremely versatile tools and exceeding at pretty much everything the game has to offer.

Simple champion designs have a place in this game (SoloQ, low elo) and before you suggest it: No, buffing simple champions until they are able to compete in pro play even if they then sport a 80% winrate in low elo is not an option. Low elo players are playing this game too and should be kept in mind for these balance decisions.

Some champions are not able to function in SoloQ and without organised play, but strive in pro play. Some champions can be played in low elo environment well, while not being good enough in pro play to be picked.

That is fine. Not every champions has to have a place in pro play.

Moody PMar 8, 20191 votes

you can either have a shit champion or make him like Azir, there is no in between

Do you feel good about writing this and making me read it?

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20193 votes

Well, but it seems that your point is that every champion who isn't used in high level/pro play is shit. Which isn't true either.

How do you want to achieve to rework every simple champion in the game to stay simple and have a meaningful impact in pro play? That is just an utopic idea and you will never truly achieve that. There will always be champions which are not picked in pro play and this is fine.

Or does your statement that champions should be playable in pro play not apply to every champion and you mean only Garen because of your well known juggernaut bias? ^^

Moody PMar 8, 20192 votes

Give Garen a thing to do that he actually excels at besides being noob bait and something where he can justify even existing (not hard at all btw)

weird how this isn't an issue in other mobas huh

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20193 votes

And what would that be, for example? Besides, just being able to exceed at something does not necessarily guarantee you being a pick in pro play....

ZackTheWaffleManMar 8, 20191 votes

simple kit != shit champion

chipndip1Mar 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

simple kit != shit champion

Sure

Garen's still a shit champion.

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

??? Grandmaster Garen main: https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=riste

if riste mained and mastered any other champion, like darius or chogath for example, hed be challenger tbh.

he didnt make it to grandmaster because of garen, but despite playing a limited champion. he says himself that everything he does is based on strategy and decision making and could be done better with other champions.

RalanrMar 8, 20191 votes

Shouldn’t rising through the ranks be based on strategy and decision more than mechanical skill?

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Shouldn’t rising through the ranks be based on strategy and decision more than mechanical skill?

yes, but should the champion be THAT limited compared to other choices?

like i said, if riste mained darius or chogath who arent very mechanical intensitive champions either, he would have probably made it a lot further than grandmaster at this point. just because of how much more effective these champions are while the difference in mechanical difficulty is very small.

there are Udyr mains in challenger right now, and how is this champion not as simple as garen?

SaevumMar 8, 20191 votes

That is indeed a Jugger, thing is he can be played in 2 roles, he has hard CC, he basically has perma speed, and can be built hybrid. Understanding the Kit is easy, however taking advantage of his possibilities that is another story.

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20193 votes

the thing is i dont even give a shit about his viability in pro play, but he lacks as a pick in solo que aswell.

in my opinion he doesnt even need a full relaunch. all im asking for is that they give him a similar mini update like they gave yorick recently and give us more control over our own kit.

IF they decided to replace villainy with something else, fine. there is a huge array of options they could chose from.

they could build on his critical strike scaling and give him a double crit passive so he could use infinity edge as his only damage item.

they could literally just build atmas impaler into his kit.

but id settle for not having him at the mercy of the rng gods every game if he can fight someone he needs to be able to fight or not.

Moody PMar 8, 20192 votes

Garen offers way too little as a champion to be defining or even worth looking at twice

Yorick is at least valuable for objectives and split pushing as well as decent area control. What does Garen do? He just sits on people and number checks them. You ever go "oh this is great time to bust out Garen" and then you're glad you kept him as a pocket pick

he's not good for anything except maybe cheesing someone with villainy and that's just not acceptable to me.

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:32:07.446+0000)

Garen offers way too little as a champion to be defining or even worth looking at twice

Yorick is at least valuable for objectives and split pushing as well as decent area control. What does Garen do? He just sits on people and number checks them. You ever go "oh this is great time to bust out Garen" and then you're glad you kept him as a pocket pick

he's not good for anything except maybe cheesing someone with villainy and that's just not acceptable to me.

the idea was that his niche is defined as a "comeback champion" or an anti carry. youd pick him into champions that tend to heavily snowball and score multi kills with resets.

he was supposed to stop these unstoppable snowball champions.

initially it looked good on the surface. when the mechanic worked it felt good to be able to take over as your teams carry and bring them back into the game. the problem is, it missed the mark and doesnt work really because the mechanic has been shitty implemented.

"the champion with the most kills against your team (except you) in the past 5 minutes" is a shitty and unreliable metric to filter out the enemy teams carry. a lot of the time, the mark just hits a target that you cant fight or just a support who randomly scored a lasthit off an ally whos doing the actual carrying. in those case you just cant do anything in those games.

on top of it, rubber band mechanics have also been reworked. at the time the mechanic was added, shotdown gold was still distributed across your entire team. so you could literally bring allies back into the game by shutting down a snowballing carry on the enemy team.

Moody PMar 8, 20192 votes

Even then You still don't really care about him because it's not a 1v1

Like.. For Garen to hit meta in s8 the entire game had to suck him off HARD with mostly entirely squishy melee assassins with no peel and no way to kill him. Then it changed back to normal and Garen returned to irrelevance

Juggernauts in general need stronger niches to slot into. Thinking like Trundle or Olaf, maybe Illaoi if Illaoi was designed a little more fluidly. That should be the goal, but combined with the higher agency that Aatrox and Urgot get.

There's got to be a better thing for Garen to be doing than hoping Villain hits the right person.

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:40:02.972+0000)

There's got to be a better thing for Garen to be doing than hoping Villain hits the right person.

100% agree.

chipndip1Mar 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:40:02.972+0000)

Even then You still don't really care about him because it's not a 1v1

Like.. For Garen to hit meta in s8 the entire game had to suck him off HARD with mostly entirely squishy melee assassins with no peel and no way to kill him. Then it changed back to normal and Garen returned to irrelevance

And that's just solo queue. Garen never was and never will be relevant in a competitive game. Period. Kit's not "underloaded" since it has tons of elements on each button, but their implementation's way too 1-dimensional for it to matter.

It's basically Sona, but way worse.

JaspersMar 8, 20192 votes

The real question is, why do you want him to be in pro play? So they can be pick ban, receive nerfs because of a needless change? ( Yorick )

Based on the title, 50% of the roster don't really exist either. And honestly, that good for some of them. Diana and Vi need to stay out of pro scene as both these champs are popular and fun to play, they probably sell skins well too. Do they really needed added pro exposure? Just so they get changed/nerfed?

SaevumMar 8, 20191 votes

Well, Lee Sin is there. Have seen pro play, has skins, it's fun to play, has been viable mostt of the seasons either S tier pick or A tier pick.

R107 GamesMar 8, 20192 votes

Garen is a champion that lacks counterplay("don't get near him" is not counterplay lol) and is cancer when strong. So i disagree tbh

Romans VI XXIIIMar 8, 20191 votes

I mean "dont get near him" is reasonable counter play for ranged people, as he has a pitiful MS buff and is 100% melee with no Hard CC. If a squishy does get near him they should die, that's his reward for outplaying and actually getting to his target.

As for other melees they have to play around his W and Q. Doing there best not to get silenced and not to waste there damage during his W.

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-03-08T17:20:34.137+0000)

I mean "dont get near him" is reasonable counter play for ranged people, as he has a pitiful MS buff and is 100% melee with no Hard CC. If a squishy does get near him they should die, that's his reward for outplaying and actually getting to his target.

As for other melees they have to play around his W and Q. Doing there best not to get silenced and not to waste there damage during his W.

its not op past lvl 11. you can literally buy the passive on an item. item 3083

like, garens passive is not crazy when you remember that item 1059 exists and how many champions just naturally heal up on minions after a fight in addition the in combat sustain they get out of the stat.

id trade garens passive for Volibear passive in an instant.

or Kayn darkin form passive.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 8, 20191 votes

I think you ment for this to be in response to one of my other posts but I some what agree.

Just cause you can buy his passive doesnt mean it's not extremely strong.

And just cause others do it off minions doesnt mean either one isnt extremely strong. Or healthy/unhealthy for the game. I honestly think LS/SV should be halved or more vs none Champions/large Monsters.

Also see my post to OP thread about my idea for his own unique passive.

Moody PMar 8, 20191 votes

trust me you don't want voli passive

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=000a000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-08T19:05:18.820+0000)

trust me you don't want voli passive

i want it more than garens passive.

30% of your max health + heal amps seems pretty good to get you through the lane phase under poke but also provides combat sustain.

its just more versatile.

Warlord RhinarkMar 8, 20191 votes

What do you suggest be done to him, then?

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-08T14:26:17.654+0000)

What do you suggest be done to him, then?

rework villainy.

the biggest problem and the largest source of frustration with the champion is in my opinion, how villainy is supposed to be garens juggernaut steroid that makes or breaks if we have an impact on a game. at the same time we have absolutely no control over it.

every other juggernaut has control over the mechanic that defines him. nasus effectiveness is dependent on how well his player can stack. darius can decide by himself how he approaches a fight and tries to get to 5 bleed stacks. illaois tentacles dont just randomly trigger on their own, but its up to her player how well she uses her hook and where she directs her tentacle slams.

when villainy lands on the right target for the game, youre fine. but when it hits a completely useless target, garen is fucked and there isnt anything he can do about it. without fighting the villain, hes just a glorified super minion.

what they could do for example is, to allow garen to always chose the villain himself but have the mechanic ramp up over ranks of his ultimate instead of adding the full effect at rank 1.

or they just keep it as it is but they could just say, ok at rank 3 garen can chose the villain himself out of combat every 30 to 60 seconds or so.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 8, 20191 votes

I'd rather tie it into Q, where Q Mark's his target as the villain for X amount of seconds. But keeping the damage linked to R so that you have to be lvl 6 before u gain access to it, and it scales with R.

Also a revamp of his passive would be nice, its pretty useless pre 11, OP as fuck post lol.

Moody PMar 8, 20192 votes

revamp

QuephaMar 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:18:25.949+0000)

delete him and put a new champion in his place

I'd rather have them leave Garen in the game and just accept that he's going to fall off at high ranks.

Warlord RhinarkMar 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:18:25.949+0000)

revamp

Revamp to what?

Just saying the word "revamp" is very vague.

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20191 votes

He is a beginner friendly champion, these tend to be not so great for pro play in general since their kits don't have as much freedom to use creatively than champions with more complicated mechanics.

Besides this, honestly, I don't care that he is not seen in pro play. I don't even really consider him iconic for League of Legends since.... he is one of the most generic champions in the game. He is the token "good knight" champion, nothing that really stands out compared to other games.

Abibyama IIMar 8, 20191 votes

ITT: Cuz simple champ lol

Meanwhile Ashe is just as simple and is getting picked occasionally in competitive.

Moody PMar 8, 20191 votes

I didn't expect anything more. Wanting Garen to get an update that makes him better in high elo means I want to make him Ryze. Of course.

Abibyama IIMar 8, 20191 votes

:^)

Linna ExcelMar 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiQAoPut,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:04:09.034+0000)

Meanwhile Ashe is just as simple and is getting picked occasionally in competitive.

Her ult always makes her a consideration for pros.

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20191 votes

This and her E. Being able to scout out the enemy jungler with her vision is actually quite a powerful tool in pro play.

In other words: Ashe gets mostly picked because of her utility.

Abibyama IIMar 8, 20191 votes

You can also give things for garen without raising his skill floor. Why not give a Juggernaut some utility?

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20191 votes

Fair enough, but what kind of thematically fitting utility would you give to Garen, while making sure that it isn't too much of a power increase in low elo so it wouldn't have to come with compensation nerfs?

Abibyama IIMar 8, 20191 votes

Right we can't really give him anything without removing his villain passive.

They could give him some sort of magic damage immunity. I really can't brainstorm rn

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20191 votes

That's the thing, tho. It's not so easy to come up with some utility buff for him which makes sense thematically.

One thing coming to mind is defense against magic damage, like the first idea you have stated yet (I know this was just an example, but bear with me, I want to picture a general problem). It makes sense when it comes to lore because of his armor he wears and weakens magic.

But the niche for a magic-damage-tanking-juggernaut is already taken and was improved with several buffs in the past for this champion: DrMundo

So this niche is already taken by Dr. Mundo. It would be fine if they would be champions of different subclasses, but they aren't, they are both juggernauts. This might change when Dr. Mundo gets his rework, maybe this niche opens up again (and that would be kinda good, Garen would fit that niche thematically better than Mundo), but until that happens, it is quite a shitty situation.

The thematically most fitting niche for Garen is already given to another champion. =/

SweedishGunnerMar 8, 20191 votes

He's never going to be good at a pro level. To be good enough for pro play he'd have to be destroying SoloQ or be severely reworked.

Jerry SeinfeIdMar 8, 20191 votes

Why are we okay with this?

cuz idc bout pro play?

why would anyone watch pro play but not play the game? the fuck kinda degeneracy is that?

FSRERMar 8, 20191 votes

Weakest toplaner by far. Balanced around season 8.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 8, 20191 votes

A. Remove how the villain is picked out.

Q - Marks the target as the villain for X seconds.

Keep the scaling with R, so that you dont have access to it till lvl 6.

B. Revamp passive, as I feel it's pretty weak pre 11 and OP 11+.

Innate - Garen gains stacks of Perseverance over time and when attacking champions, large monsters or killing enemies.

3/4/5/6 a sec lvl 1/6/11/16 and 10 per AA on champs/large monsters, 10 for kill, 5 per Spin Hit on Champs/large monsters (rough numbers)

At 100 stacks the next attack Garen makes or damage he takes consumes the stacks and he gains a shield equal to 15% of his Max HP increased by 1% per 1% HP he is missing. The shield lasts 5 seconds, when the shield expires Garen heals for 25/50/75/100% lvl 1/6/11/16 of the remaining shield amount.

Obviously #s can change for balance but you get the rough idea.