Nicely done Riot, you have effectively damaged/destroyed a myriad of characters instead of targeting the actual problem.
I long for the Morello era... characters and items got HELLA nerfed, but at least it was always the right character/right item getting nerfed.
Xrusa2 votesExcept Udyr was only slightly above average until this item was introduced so I'm not sure how you believe that's even remotely accurate? Udyr was not the problem. The speed on this item was. On top of the speed of 
it was too much.
SeargentAnus1 votesIt needed the nerf. I would have liked to see it drop to 5%, but 7% will probably be good enough along with the nerf to swifties.
Dominick Destine1 votesUdyr needed the nerf, and he got none.
They would rather gut every champion that ISN'T the problem that nerf the one that IS the problem.
SeargentAnus1 votesEvery AP jungler was way out of line (because of the MS) it gave them too much utility. He'll drop in winrate with this change, and he'll be off my permaban list.
Abyssphere1 votesEvery AP jungler was way out of line (because of the MS) it gave them too much utility. He'll drop in winrate with this change, and he'll be off my permaban list.
The only AP jungler that's out of line is Elise. You could make the argument for Nid if you want but that's pretty much LCS-exclusive.
People like Evelynn and Diana will hurt because of this. The item was overtuned but it was a crutch for them, especially Eve.
Dominick Destine1 votesPeople like Evelynn and Diana will hurt because of this. The item was overtuned but it was a crutch for them, especially Eve.
As an Evelynn main, I thank you for having a brain, unlike the others that have responded.
Dominick Destine2 votesEvery AP jungler was way out of line
With the exception of Elise and to a significantly lesser extent nidalee, what AP jungler was "out of line"?
There was no reason to gut Echoes instead of Udyr.
SeargentAnus1 votesEvery AP jungler saw a huge jump in winrate (fiddle jumped like 3%). Riot can buff the kits of other champions if they begin to tank after this patch. Riot wants to make a stabilized item (which is possible), but the item was overtuned in it's current state. 10% MS for so cheap was game breaking.
Dominick Destine1 votesEvery AP jungler saw a huge jump in winrate
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OgLQberU,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-16T21:26:47.598+0000)
... I hate it when I agree with you on something.
le sigh You're not a female so its not like its a sexy, hate kind of thing either.
In anycase...to be blunt.
I do not believe Runic Echoes is the problem, nor do I believe Udyr is a problem either. Let us consider the previous iteration of Rune glaive.
Udyr with Rune glaive level 18.
Turtle stance 240 + 20 AP = 260 shield
Phoenix 275 + 50 = 325 200 + 18 = 218
Spellblade effect = 113 + 12 = 125
Udyr with Runic Echoes
Turtle stance 240 + 30 AP = 270 shield
275+75 =350 200 + 27 = 227
Let us assume a full 5 second duration of Phoenix burn. Within 5 seconds.
Runeglaive udyr damage 375 (runeglaive procs) + 325 (phoenix) + 218(phoenix hit) = 918
Echoes udyr 350(phoenix) + 227(phoenix hit) + 106(runeglaive damage) = 683
So runeglaive udyr dealt more damage over time due to the procs than echo udyr. Let us, however, assume only ONE proc of runegliave.
668 damage.
That is 15 less damage than Runic Echoes Udyr at level 18! Early game the damage difference is more pronounced due to base damage differences, but when you consider something like Steraak's a runeglaive Udyr will deal more damage in burst than Runeglaive echoes ever would due to base damage increase.
So...clearly damage is not the issue.
Is it the 10% movement speed? Not really...
I don't feel like doing the math but...long story short, the 10% movement buff doesn't have nearly the same effect as people are believing it to be. On top of the matter is that if he wants, he can build Luden's to get MORE AP, MORE burst, and more movement speed.
So...in reality...not really hurting him in terms of build path because
He has 3 different build paths
Runic echoes >tanky stuff
Devourer>luden's or tanky stuff
Juggernaut --> luden's
Ah wait I am a bear.
Ereldra3 votesYou are right, Runic Echoes was a huge buff to Ap-Junglers. The thing is, they also really needed it, because due to the other Preseason-Changes, every AP-Jungler was really, really struggling; even "always-viable-Elise" was under 50% Winrate. And if you go by the recent winrates (http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle), the Top-10 only have Ekko as "real" Ap-Jungler.. and 51,46% doesn't sound terribly unbalanced..
So, yeah... RE is strong, yes, but still, it kinda sucks, that all the AP-Junglers are now basically getting a nerf although they are mostly quite balanced (Elise got her own nerf already anyway), because Udyr, who isn't even supposed to build it, abuses it.. Really feels kinda unfair for those playing AP-Junglers :/ Unless of course, there will be some compensation-Buffs for those, who need them, but well.
Abyssphere1 votesI believe they'll be nerfing Udyr directly still, but I don't know. Maybe with the nerf to Swiftness Boots as well they don't think he needs it.
MegaManYYZ1 votesthey are nerfing swiftys by 5 MS.
Meep Man1 votesThe item was a little too good. It gave a Luden's passive, even if slightly weaker, for a lot less gold.
Troiann1 votesA champion that had a low pickrate and a mediocre winrate outside of sudden broken item being introduced (feral flare, devourer), suddenly spikes to 57% winrate after this item is released.
Oh yeah it's the champion's fault.
Dominick Destine1 votesA champion
Yes. A broken champion with absurdly high pick/win rate needs to be nerfed.
Not everyone else.
Troiann1 votesA champion spikes up like 6% because of an item. Nerf the champion right?
Dominick Destine1 votesA character is overpowered.
You nerf the character, not everyone else.
Ereldra1 votesBut the Item wasn't meant for him. It was meant for all the other-AP-Junglers, who were all really struggling because of the other Preseason-changes. RE ist very strong, but it was the Buff, that all these Champions like Nidalee, Ekko, Fiddle, Diana, Elise etc. needed, whilst also making other Junglers like Karthus viable again. Only Elise turned out to be too strong, but she got nerfed already and seems to be in a reasonable spot right now despite the strong item. Everybody else seems to be quite balanced right now, too. So, yeah, for those playing these AP-Junglers it really sucks, that their item is nerfed because a champion, that wasn't even supposed to build it abuses it.. especially, when there are likely no immediate compensations for them, although they aren't even the problem/reason for the nerf.
Bears Dont Care1 votesBears don't care. Riot do what Riot want cause people are dumb. People cry cause they can, not because there is a problem.