Getting instant stunned and bursted was always a miserable feeling
At least with Annie you can tell when it's coming and her range is lower At least with brand he gave you something to dodge
The only unfortunate part is that Veigar was literally only an E. He doesn't have anything else going for him. He needed a Xerath level rework and even then I doubt it would make him that different from Viktor
JusticePauldrons2 votesI agree with you, he can use power in other areas but his stun was always dumb as hell. Prepeare for your downvotes though, because this boards are literally the most toxic place imaginable to for reasonable discussion, people will look at the title and downvote without ever reading your thread.
Kingsgrave2 votesI agree with you, he can use power in other areas but his stun was always dumb as hell. Prepeare for your downvotes though, because this boards are literally the most toxic place imaginable to for reasonable discussion, people will look at the title and downvote without ever reading your thread.
Ppl tend to down vote differing opinions. Okay with Lee? Like the Cass rework? Think Darius is toxic? Okay with zed and thresh and Yasuo? All downvoted.
BuCkeT SeiZureS2 votesWell some of those that you mentioned are actually a problem. Zed is a problem now and lee has been a problem for a while. Saying you are fine with them means you main them or you don't play against good ones. That said, I agree about veigar's E needing a change. Though there was counterplay in items, it was better than some ultimates. It was very toxic. The only problem was that they didn't want to invest resources into changing it, so they took a very lazy approach. Like you said, he is a lesser Viktor, and Viktor sees very little play already. He needs his stun reworked, not just delayed. Some say to play him now as an AP nasus. Sadly, this does not work. His scalings and mana costs make him still very bad. Even with 300+ stacks, he is still unable to one shot enemy AP carries. Nasus has the kit for his infinite scaling, veigar would still need to build lots of AP to be strong. I don't like seeing any champion gutted and do find it somewhat disappointing you mention you enjoy it. This goes for Olaf, Kass, Azir, or any other champ. While Kass at least has a rework on the way, its very possible veigar will join the others at the bottom. That is the biggest problem I have with the rework and some of these threads. No one wants a compromise. They want veigar gone or just straight buffed. That may be what is truly toxic.
Kingsgrave1 votes[{quoted}](name=BuCkeT SeiZureS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ObEHxp2g,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-09T14:46:51.587+0000)
Well some of those that you mentioned are actually a problem. Zed is a problem now and lee has been a problem for a while. Saying you are fine with them means you main them or you don't play against good ones. That said, I agree about veigar's E needing a change. Though there was counterplay in items, it was better than some ultimates. It was very toxic. The only problem was that they didn't want to invest resources into changing it, so they took a very lazy approach. Like you said, he is a lesser Viktor, and Viktor sees very little play already. He needs his stun reworked, not just delayed. Some say to play him now as an AP nasus. Sadly, this does not work. His scalings and mana costs make him still very bad. Even with 300+ stacks, he is still unable to one shot enemy AP carries. Nasus has the kit for his infinite scaling, veigar would still need to build lots of AP to be strong. I don't like seeing any champion gutted and do find it somewhat disappointing you mention you enjoy it. This goes for Olaf, Kass, Azir, or any other champ. While Kass at least has a rework on the way, its very possible veigar will join the others at the bottom. That is the biggest problem I have with the rework and some of these threads. No one wants a compromise. They want veigar gone or just straight buffed. That may be what is truly toxic.
I honestly don't think Zed and Lee are as problematic as everyone thinks they are. Sure they might be a tad too versatile, but people calling for a nerf to them every single patch seems odd.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesI am afraid that you must just not face good ones. Zed is without a doubt the best midlaner right now (in the right hands of course). Its tough to do winrates on champs like that because everyone wants to jump on the band wagon for "freelo." There is a point where this wont matter and people can just faceroll for the win, but I agree that zed is not at that point. He is , however, strong at every point in the game. Maybe he is a little weak pre six, but there truly is no stopping him after that unless he loses lane Hard. As for Lee, he is also getting nerfed constantly, but still considered top teir jungle. His mobility is really impossible to deal with since wards are so readily available. He can just do everything and do it well. His only weakness is his late game, but even then he is still a huge play maker. The biggest problem I see with these two and others you mentioned is their contribution to mobility creep. With mages like Veigar being nerfed and Annie on the cutting board next, there truly is no reason to pick a non mobile champ. Riot has stated they want more reflex based counter play over strategy, which could eventually be good. But they are in the transition and doing it very poorly. They are cutting down champs that could handle the mobile ones right now rather than reworking them. This is honestly just creating more problems that will have to be dealt with later, but they can be covered up for the time being. I think this is the reason why people do outcry about champs like the current ahri (very balanced) and LeBlanc (kinda balanced). For veigar,I personally would have thought the q change was fine if they compensated the W a bit and brought his E in line by reducing the stun duration. Veigar was honestly quite balanced before, but had a toxic ability. So if they moved things around, he would be in a great place. However, they added weaknesses and removed strengths. They also removed a champion that could deal with mobility creep. Hence why people are even more upset.
Kingsgrave1 votes[{quoted}](name=BuCkeT SeiZureS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ObEHxp2g,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-09T23:54:00.371+0000)
I am afraid that you must just not face good ones. Zed is without a doubt the best midlaner right now (in the right hands of course). Its tough to do winrates on champs like that because everyone wants to jump on the band wagon for "freelo." There is a point where this wont matter and people can just faceroll for the win, but I agree that zed is not at that point. He is , however, strong at every point in the game. Maybe he is a little weak pre six, but there truly is no stopping him after that unless he loses lane Hard. As for Lee, he is also getting nerfed constantly, but still considered top teir jungle. His mobility is really impossible to deal with since wards are so readily available. He can just do everything and do it well. His only weakness is his late game, but even then he is still a huge play maker. The biggest problem I see with these two and others you mentioned is their contribution to mobility creep. With mages like Veigar being nerfed and Annie on the cutting board next, there truly is no reason to pick a non mobile champ. Riot has stated they want more reflex based counter play over strategy, which could eventually be good. But they are in the transition and doing it very poorly. They are cutting down champs that could handle the mobile ones right now rather than reworking them. This is honestly just creating more problems that will have to be dealt with later, but they can be covered up for the time being. I think this is the reason why people do outcry about champs like the current ahri (very balanced) and LeBlanc (kinda balanced). For veigar,I personally would have thought the q change was fine if they compensated the W a bit and brought his E in line by reducing the stun duration. Veigar was honestly quite balanced before, but had a toxic ability. So if they moved things around, he would be in a great place. However, they added weaknesses and removed strengths. They also removed a champion that could deal with mobility creep. Hence why people are even more upset.
I don't judge the balance of characters based on my games or personal experience because its largely irrelevant. I have seen Zed players do well and do poorly, but like I said it doesn't matter that I have.
BBQnFootMa55age2 votesthe insta stun was certainly a frustrating part of his kit when hes fed, but he was way too gutted in his other areas after the nerf. A simple delay to the stun woulda sufficed for veigar
Kingsgrave1 votesthe insta stun was certainly a frustrating part of his kit when hes fed, but he was way too gutted in his other areas after the nerf. A simple delay to the stun woulda sufficed for veigar
I don't really think that's true. He only really had his E going for him. Take away the instant aspect and he has nothing else going for him.
Buff other aspects and he's just a lesser Viktor.
JusticePauldrons1 votesNot quite true, now you can just think of him as an ap nasus. Let him get free stacks and you will have a bad time. Does he still need some work? Definitely, but his E had such a huge lack of counterplay it stopped any chance of buffing him. Now we can work on his kit and make him better in the long run.
Kingsgrave1 votesNot quite true, now you can just think of him as an ap nasus. Let him get free stacks and you will have a bad time. Does he still need some work? Definitely, but his E had such a huge lack of counterplay it stopped any chance of buffing him. Now we can work on his kit and make him better in the long run.
No, I meant that Veigar design wise is terribly made. He was literally just a stun with a 2 point and click moves that kinda sorta did the same thing. Is he a burst mage? poke mage? support? siege mage? etc., He had no identity and still doesn't.
Ser Safir2 votesU guys do realize his stun had a delay to begin with right? The reason he had to stun people before using his rotation was because of casting times.
The Chin1 votesAlso agreed
His stun was SO frustrating to play against
Hirok01 votesAdding delay to E and splitting Q into a 2-hit skillshot sounds pretty fair to me. He racks up stacks way easier, and he actually is somewhat fun to play against or with now that the E isn't instant. imo, his ult needs replaced with something thats not useful against only 1 or 2 enemies.