http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top
I haven't been playing or watching pro play at all lately so I just have the stats to work on, from the spoilers I've seen it doesn't look like he's being played in competitive play either
Is he being picked and banned a lot in solo queue?
RiotMeddler18 votesWe feel Jax's jungle performance is too strong at the moment in high tier play, while his performance is too strong across the board in low-average skill games. In particular he's getting to max stacks quicker than he should, subverting one of his intended weaknesses (ramp up time).
As usual, average win rate's something we look at, and associated with power, but not functionally identical to it. It's worth looking at of course, it's certainly not irrelevant, but does need to be treated with caution. That's especially true with data with a reasonable margin of error, which is the case with the various third party sites like Champion.gg. Looking at our internal data we're seeing win rates of 48% for top and 53% for jungle for example across all Elo ranges.
FalconPawwwwnch7 votesThanks for responding Meddler,
Personally I feel as though this will nerf lane Jax a lot harder, as jungle Jax is guaranteed to get max stacks, whereas lane Jax won't be able to continuously hit minions to charge his passive + needing to charge fervor stacks against enemy champions.
I also don't understand the -.1 AP ratio nerf on his R, I think the better change would be to address the synergy with sated devourer and guinsoo's rageblade, but that's just a guess
Balancing him around his jungle tells the playerbase that jungle is currently his intended role which I HOPE is not the case, as lane Jax is much more interesting; you can bait/play around his E and R cooldowns to engage him, fight when passive falls off, etc plus you get to deny him farm, whereas in the jungle you mindlessly click things to scale for no risk
I hope that you will be continually monitoring lane Jax's (lack of) performance in later patches
RiotMeddler7 votesYeah, it's possible we might need to do some follow up work on Jax if this puts his laning in too sad a state overall. We're certainly happy seeing him in lane and I agree with you that there's some interesting play there not seen when he jungles.
Bethor Kookalian1 votesBalancing him around his jungle tells the playerbase that jungle is currently his intended role
No it doesn't. Partially because champions are perfectly allowed to live in multiple roles, and partially because the balance team can't allow Jax to be "too strong" of a jungler in order to protect his top's viability.
Hell, I've seen champions who's primary role has -always- been X, but started getting balance patches around Y, and their primary role never changed the whole time(Udyr Jungle eating top-nerfs).
Dreadlocks7 votesLooking at our internal data we're seeing win rates of 48% for top and 53% for jungle for example across all Elo ranges.
So if Jax having a 2-3% above or below winrate is a problem to you, why is 
allowed to have a high winrate top lane (or anywhere) and you make very minor nerfs to him, and champions like 
and 
go untouched while maintaining 53%-56% winrate consistently every patch? Or are these champions not successful on your internal data?
I'm not complaining, I just want to understand why someone like Jax is getting hit because of an average winrate, but the 2-3 i listed for example go untouched every patch. What triggers you guys? -_-
ModWulf Helhammer7 votesGraves is getting nerfs in the next patch. They are on the PBE now.
Ahri has a lot of counterplay, so that's not an issue.
Malphite is on a bit of a fringe case, but one of the primary reasons is because he's stronger in an AD centric meta (which is a bit prevalent right now)
Dreadlocks3 votesSounds more like excuses than actual reasons.
ModWulf Helhammer6 votesYou know what the difference between excuses and actual reasons? Whether the person reading them likes them.
I gave reasons. Why you don't find them acceptable is up to you.
BeatzBoyFTW5 votesI dunno about Ahri & Malphite, but uhhh
Graves End of the Line (Q): Bounce back / Second hit damage lowered to 85/135/185/235/285 from 85/145/205/265/325 Bounce back / Second hit now deals X% damage to minions and monsters (unfortunately can't access this value atm)
The Graves part is real doe.
l Helios l1 votesMalphite, not being a fanboy or a devil's advocate here, has always been the anti AD guy, along with Rammus and Taric. Malphite thrives in triple AD comps, which are quite common now due to strong AD tops like GP, Fiora, Graves, and others along with junglers like Graves and Kindred. Plus general consensus among the community is AP mids are weaker than the AD ones, which I don't fully get but that's just me. And of course we always have ADCs who use AD, Corki and Ezreal being the oddballs.
In addition, Malphite as a whole is just quite reliable with a massive knock up functioning as a gap closer to boot that is devastating in team fights. He can basically function as an Ult bot and win games because of the level of impact he offers. Plus his laning phase is reliable as well due to GOTU coupled with his passive and decent trades vs. most top laners.
I can't speak much for Ahri; I haven't played her in forever. I would think it has to do with her just being highly reliable and favorable in most match ups. Ahri doesn't really have any match ups that are just abysmally horrible. Like, TF into Fizz horrible or Jax into Teemo horrible or something super not fun.
Graves...Idk man. Graves is just so weird right now; functioning super well in 2 roles, arguably 3, and 2 of those aren't even his intended role. It's just the backlash from the update he had and experimentation that followed suit. I mean, his kit is amazing for jungling, just amazing. Only problem is if you go too hard on Graves, it can cost him late game, which is his entire purpose on the team. The Q nerf was fair as it gives more time to react in the corridors to potential damage considering how fast his Q fires and that he is most likely near a wall anyway. I could see an ult CDR nerf at lower levels. Maybe even some reductions to his True Grit bonuses. Time will tell.
DeathBurst3 votes[{quoted}](name=We Rektum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OH8LIXjv,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-01-29T02:56:33.328+0000)
So if Jax having a 2-3% above or below winrate is a problem to you
Did you actually read Meddler's post? I mean, he actually said that they weren't balancing him because of his winrate in the first sentence of the second paragraph...
Dreadlocks3 votesYet he spent half of his comment talking about his winrate.
DeathBurst1 votesHe spent half of his comment trying to explain to people like you why talking about winrate is not the be-all-end-all of balancing. He wasn't successful, apparently...
Dreadlocks1 votesClearly you don't comprehend very well lol. He said its not the only reason, but its still something that needs to be considered when balancing.
DeathBurst1 votesClearly you don't comprehend logic very well, if when someone tells you "winrate is not the only thing to consider", you answer to them with " if Jax having a 2-3% above or below winrate is a problem to you, why is Graves allowed to have a high winrate".
They never said jax's winrate was a problem, however you try to turn their words around...
Dreadlocks1 votesClearly you cant read rotfl.
As usual,** average win rate's something we look at, and associated with power**, but not functionally identical to it. **It's worth looking at of course, it's certainly not irrelevant, but does need to be treated with caution. **
Very Hard Engage1 votesWe feel Jax's jungle performance is too strong at the moment in high tier play, while his performance is too strong across the board in low-average skill games. In particular he's getting to max stacks quicker than he should, subverting one of his intended weaknesses (ramp up time).
As usual, average win rate's something we look at, and associated with power, but not functionally identical to it. It's worth looking at of course, it's certainly not irrelevant, but does need to be treated with caution. That's especially true with data with a reasonable margin of error, which is the case with the various third party sites like Champion.gg. Looking at our internal data we're seeing win rates of 48% for top and 53% for jungle for example across all Elo ranges.
yes but can riot understand why zed still needs nerfs? peerless laning where the only counterplay available is to just simply not last hit at all, and throw a multitude of ganks at him by either more hyper mobile champions or just hard targeted stuns (if there will be any left after you get through with them).
at least i still have the late game 5v5 to look forward too knowing hes going to sit back and not contribute at all, (if his 15kill lead isn't enough) so im confident in the 5v4 well have at that stage of the game.
so i just have to worry about only the first 30minutes of the game.
great champion design riot.
airyimbin2 votesRageblade (stacked) + Gunblade gives roughly the same attackspeed as Trinity + Botrk (last season) so the ramp up time will be the same considering he starts with 0 AS built since Rageblade's stats are conditional. This is at a 3 item point but not the 2 item point , where it is slightly faster this season. It's also harder to ramp up since he's a lot squishier this season making his teamfight horrid in comparison to last season till late game comes. There's very little opportunity to turn around skirmishes in unfavorable games while he is ahead because of how glass (instead of bruiser) he is which shoves him into splitting through these unfavorable games, tending to yield very little return for the risk that's involved in it.
Considering statistics and winrates, 53% has never been a problem considering champions like Ahri or Janna have been sitting there for several months. Same goes for perceived power, where his ban rate has been rapidly dropping in higher tiers. Additionally, his already subpar toplane winrate isn't compensated for by nerfing his ability to stack, and his 2 item burst when he is stacked. Finally, he's only showed up in 2 competitive games so far, where Darshan wasn't able to make a gamebreaking impact. Besides, I'm sure you balance based on high Elo winrate, where I'm sure his winrate is a lot lower (counterplay!).
Rebonack1 votesWe feel Jax's jungle performance is too strong at the moment in high tier play, while his performance is too strong across the board in low-average skill games. In particular he's getting to max stacks quicker than he should, subverting one of his intended weaknesses (ramp up time).
As usual, average win rate's something we look at, and associated with power, but not functionally identical to it. It's worth looking at of course, it's certainly not irrelevant, but does need to be treated with caution. That's especially true with data with a reasonable margin of error, which is the case with the various third party sites like Champion.gg. Looking at our internal data we're seeing win rates of 48% for top and 53% for jungle for example across all Elo ranges.
I would absolutely love it if your champion information page tracked stats (raw win rate, pick rate, common lane, win rate by games with camp played, win rate at various game lengths, ect) for the game. It's very useful information to have. Especially with champions who aren't commonly played, making it hard to get solid numbers from third party sites.
The Deckowner3 votespersonally i had been playing jax jg before he became the "no skill freelo bullshit op broken champion", and he was never op, his kit his stats has no problems, the problem is sated devourer making himvery strong, and rage blade being a broken item(offers plenty of ad,ap, tiamat waveclear and broken attackspeed), it just works well on jax.
rageblade needs nerf, jax doesnt
LaughingStapler1 votesWe feel Jax's jungle performance is too strong at the moment in high tier play, while his performance is too strong across the board in low-average skill games. In particular he's getting to max stacks quicker than he should, subverting one of his intended weaknesses (ramp up time).
As usual, average win rate's something we look at, and associated with power, but not functionally identical to it. It's worth looking at of course, it's certainly not irrelevant, but does need to be treated with caution. That's especially true with data with a reasonable margin of error, which is the case with the various third party sites like Champion.gg. Looking at our internal data we're seeing win rates of 48% for top and 53% for jungle for example across all Elo ranges.
When has jungle Jax ever been viable in high tier play? I don't think I've eve seen it in LCS/LCK/LPL. If you're nerfing champions where people aren't playing that well, won't that just make them unviable at the highest level?
Registeel12346 votesquite simple : winrate =/= strenght
There is too many factors that may influence it, like playrate for exemple : a high playrate can mean that a lot of playing pick him while not really knowing how to play him.
WoonStruck2 votesquite simple : winrate =/= strenght
There is too many factors that may influence it, like playrate for exemple : a high playrate can mean that a lot of playing pick him while not really knowing how to play him.
Except Jax is pretty damn easy. New players can do well with him as long as they know what an auto attack reset is, and how to harass with his ult if they're laning. This is from someone who has played tons of Jax, even when he was considered underpowered. I still often came out of lane fed.
The issue isn't laning at all, for those of you who think it is. Its entirely his jungle presence with devourer and rageblade, then tank. Doesn't even need Trinity anymore, and if you want it, might as well grab IBG instead to push the tankiness you're already giving up with 2 damage items. Try it and you'll see. He comes out of the jungle way more consistently than lane.
Sir Yamazuki2 votesExcept Jax is pretty damn easy.
Simple=/=easy. There's a 15% difference between 1-5 games and 125+ games. Which is why his average is so low, he's picked mostly by less experienced players. I always find it funny people will reference champion.gg for stats but completely ignore everything but the average win rate. He's easy jungle wise, but generally a lot of champions are easier to play as a jungler than top anyways.
Han Chuljoon5 votesYea I don't get it either,
I feel like Riot's only nerfing him because of bads complaining tbh
all the stats show that he's fine at most
Nahui5 votesWin rate does not indicate balance.
BeatzBoyFTW3 votesQuite a lot yes, due to the strong synergy between top 
, or worse, jungle 
DeloricVI2 votesThe reason is he's pretty much permabanned because his split pushing ability has become godly in S6, for some reason. Seriously, he can push so hard, he could just split push all game and win single-handedly. It's disgusting.
Now, his winrate is probably lower, because new players are now using him in ranked because he's "OP" and not because they know how to play him. I had someone with a grand total of 2 games on Jax pick him just because he's "OP right now" and wasn't banned. We lost.
BlackxHokage2 votesThe guy literally gets one item and begins to 3 shot people at level six... Hell ekkos whole thematic is 3 shoting people and he can barely do that