Riot said they would buff Solo Lane Morde if it was nerfed, and both are around 40% winrate

Kingsgrave·Aug 22, 2015·36 votes·3,900 views

http://champion.gg/champion/Mordekaiser/Top

http://champion.gg/champion/Mordekaiser/Middle

To put this into perspective, Top/Mid Morde winrates dropped by 10%.

On the upside however, ADC Morde is 56% winrate lmao so that went well for them. http://champion.gg/champion/Mordekaiser/ADC

I think solo lane Morde's biggest issue is that he doesn't get any use out of his W. Giving him the ability to use it on minions for even 50% effectiveness would really help him out.

It's interesting however that his ADC play shows that he is a massive lane bully but his Top/Mid lane show that he can't bully in the slightest.

This is really weird because Mordekaiser's identity as a champion in general was "win lane lose game," basically he was the king of lane bullying and massive pushing but now he has no ability to do that in a Solo Lane. Even if Riot intended for his primary role to be ADC bot, the fact that his identity as a champion isn't consistent in all roles is a huge design problem.

71 Comments

TrylobyteAug 22, 20156 votes

The rework was just released. Winrates for solo Morde will be down because people who haven't read the patchnotes or who are simply stubborn will still be trying to play him like old Morde, which doesn't work anymore, while winrates for ADC Morde will be up because he's new, scary, and nobody knows how to properly deal with him yet except those from the PBE. Give it time to settle before hastily drawing possibly erroneous conclusions.

JbelsAug 22, 201513 votes

{quoted}

The rework was just released. Winrates for solo Morde will be down because people who haven't read the patchnotes or who are simply stubborn will still be trying to play him like old Morde, which doesn't work anymore, while winrates for ADC Morde will be up because he's new, scary, and nobody knows how to properly deal with him yet except those from the PBE. Give it time to settle before hastily drawing possibly erroneous conclusions.

Old morde wasn't counterpicked by every champion in top lane

KingsgraveAug 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The rework was just released. Winrates for solo Morde will be down because people who haven't read the patchnotes or who are simply stubborn will still be trying to play him like old Morde, which doesn't work anymore, while winrates for ADC Morde will be up because he's new, scary, and nobody knows how to properly deal with him yet except those from the PBE. Give it time to settle before hastily drawing possibly erroneous conclusions.

Nothing about his Solo Lane gameplay patterns changed, not even in the slightest.

TrylobyteAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Nothing about his Solo Lane gameplay patterns changed, not even in the slightest.

Then why is his solo winrate down so much if nothing about his patterns changed? Obviously something changed or it wouldn't have dropped so much! Are you taking into account his different ratios and adjusting your runes, masteries, and itemization accordingly? Are you taking into account the fact two of his skills are now massively different and may be a better or worse pick at different times? Or are you still beating your head against the wall trying to use old Morde strats with new Morde gameplay?

JbelsAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Then why is his solo winrate down so much if nothing about his patterns changed? Obviously something changed or it wouldn't have dropped so much! Are you taking into account his different ratios and adjusting your runes, masteries, and itemization accordingly? Are you taking into account the fact two of his skills are now massively different and may be a better or worse pick at different times? Or are you still beating your head against the wall trying to use old Morde strats with new Morde gameplay?

The pattern didn't change, the damage on his kit shifted (Some of it was removed entirely in the case of solo lane)

TrylobyteAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The pattern didn't change, the damage on his kit shifted (Some of it was removed entirely in the case of solo lane)

Take some time to adapt to it, then, before you take to the forums. I know Morde players are upset about the radical change, but I think a lot of them are going into it with an old mindset, failing, then complaining right away without ever taking the time to adapt to the changes. It's knee-jerk reactionism, which is often wrong.

JbelsAug 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Take some time to adapt to it, then, before you take to the forums. I know Morde players are upset about the radical change, but I think a lot of them are going into it with an old mindset, failing, then complaining right away without ever taking the time to adapt to the changes. I hate knee-jerk reactionism because it's often wrong.

I used to dominate Riven in solo lane. Now she destroys me.

Raid Boss MordeAug 23, 20151 votes

Ummm.. you know what's odd? I could never beat Riven pre-rework... since this new rework though, Riven has become extremely easy for me to fight.

KingsgraveAug 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Take some time to adapt to it, then, before you take to the forums. I know Morde players are upset about the radical change, but I think a lot of them are going into it with an old mindset, failing, then complaining right away without ever taking the time to adapt to the changes. It's knee-jerk reactionism, which is often wrong.

Nothing about his gameplay patterns or mindset changed, his numbers were outright nerfed if he goes in a solo lane. You are taking a very kneejerk stance on this, ironically. You immediately assume whatever we say is wrong because we haven't "played enough with it"

TrylobyteAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nothing about his gameplay patterns or mindset changed, his numbers were outright nerfed if he goes in a solo lane. You are taking a very kneejerk stance on this, ironically. You immediately assume whatever we say is wrong because we haven't "played enough with it"

Because unless you were on the PBE you can't possibly have played enough with it. It's been out for, what, two or three days?

JbelsAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Because unless you were on the PBE you can't possibly have played enough with it. It's been out for, what, two or three days?

I did play it on PBE, and believe me, I'm not the only one who begrudged CertainlyT for how he butchered Morde's solo-lane

TrylobyteAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I did play it on PBE, and believe me, I'm not the only one who begrudged CertainlyT for how he butchered Morde's solo-lane

Well, fair enough then. Perhaps it would be a good change to allow Morde to cast his W on himself for partial bonuses, or on a minion for full bonuses? It would make the minion a target for the enemy laner to deny Morde his bonuses, but it would also mean they might need to get close to Morde to kill it. Counterplay!

JbelsAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well, fair enough then. Perhaps it would be a good change to allow Morde to cast his W on himself for partial bonuses, or on a minion for full bonuses? It would make the minion a target for the enemy laner to deny Morde his bonuses, but it would also mean they might need to get close to Morde to kill it. Counterplay!

Full bonuses absolutely not, but partial I can see them doing

JedenVojakAug 22, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Nothing about his Solo Lane gameplay patterns changed, not even in the slightest.

This is incorrect. His damage is all single target focused now, and loaded into hitting multiple times with a melee attack, while also being slower movement wise. Less AOE means he has less ambient shield generation, while his rate of generation was also slashed, and with the loss of the AR/MR from his blade armor.

The net effect of these changes is that he's squishier, while being slower, while doing less damage at range, while needing to do all of his damage with multiple successive hits of a melee attack.

If you think his solo lane gameplay has not changed even in the slightest, I would have to say you really don't know what you're talking about.

JbelsAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is incorrect. His damage is all single target focused now, and loaded into hitting multiple times with a melee attack, while also being slower movement wise. Less AOE means he has less ambient shield generation, while his rate of generation was also slashed, and with the loss of the AR/MR from his blade armor.

The net effect of these changes is that he's squishier, while being slower, while doing less damage at range, while needing to do all of his damage with multiple successive hits of a melee attack.

If you think his solo lane gameplay has not changed even in the slightest, I would have to say you really don't know what you're talking about.

It hasn't...you're pretty much trying to do the same exact thing with this iteration of his kit as you did with the last in solo lane.....damage...

JedenVojakAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It hasn't...you're pretty much trying to do the same exact thing with this iteration of his kit as you did with the last in solo lane.....damage...

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7ballAug 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Nothing about his Solo Lane gameplay patterns changed, not even in the slightest.

lol, have you ever played morde before rework to say something so stupid?

TTUPhoenixAug 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol, have you ever played morde before rework to say something so stupid?

As someone who's been playing a lot of Morde solo the past few days, and played him before the rework, while his play pattern has changed in solo, it hasn't changed very much. It still boils down to "every 5.7s, I get to hurt you". He's more reactive than before - he can't really use his q for poke, so it becomes more about waiting for or baiting your opponent into fighting you then ringing their skull like a bell - but his basics haven't changed much. It's E poke until you can kill them or force them out of lane.

MordepoolAug 22, 20151 votes

Wow. Nope. Sry most morde players read the patch and know wth is going on. Just are refusing botlane out of spite I very much doubt. Solokaiser will average out with only two basic abilities

JbelsAug 22, 20156 votes

Giving him access to the W wouldn't help his lane at all. It still doesn't solve his problem of having all of his power frontloaded into Q, and being the most easily kited champion since sliced Garen.

KingsgraveAug 22, 201526 votes

{quoted}

Giving him access to the W wouldn't help his lane at all. It still doesn't solve his problem of having all of his power frontloaded into Q, and being the most easily kited champion since sliced Garen.

He was still easy to kite before and had a 50% winrate.

JbelsAug 22, 20158 votes

{quoted}

He was still easy to kite before and had a 50% winrate.

His E actually did damage back then

KingsgraveAug 22, 201515 votes

{quoted}

His E actually did damage back then

It does more damage at rank 1-3 than it did on live.

EDIT: Correction it deals more damage at every rank if you have AD reds and Quints. (15)

JbelsAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It does more damage at rank 1-3 than it did on live.

35 / 65 / 95 / 125 / 155 (+ 60% AD) (+ 60% AP) LIVE

70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+ 60% AP) OLD

Sounds about right

KingsgraveAug 22, 201512 votes

{quoted}

35 / 65 / 95 / 125 / 155 (+ 60% AD) (+ 60% AP) LIVE

70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+ 60% AP) OLD

Sounds about right

AD reds and Quints gives you 76 AD at Level 1

60% of 76 is 45.6

45.6+35 = 80.6 which is greater than 70

At level 18 with the 15 AD + your base AD = 161

60% of 161 = 96.6

96.6+155 = 251.6 which is greater than 250

So it actually deals more damage early and basically the same later. You are kneejerking like the rest of boards.

JbelsAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

AD reds and Quints gives you 76 AD at Level 1

60% of 76 is 45.6

45.6+35 = 80.6 which is greater than 70

At level 18 with the 15 AD + your base AD = 161

60% of 161 = 96.6

96.6+155 = 251.6 which is greater than 250

So it actually deals more damage early and basically the same later. You are kneejerking like the rest of boards.

You're ignoring the main issue that Mordekaiser's new item core is vastly more expensive than it was before. Back then, your early game items were Revolver, Haunting Guise, Sorc Shoes, and you did way more damage than you will ever do with him now.

Also, did you just completely ignore AP rune itemization? Because I usually started with 40 AP whenever I played Morde, and 60% of 40 is 24, 24 plus 70 is 94.

KingsgraveAug 22, 201510 votes

{quoted}

You're ignoring the main issue that Mordekaiser's new item core is vastly more expensive than it was before. Back then, your early game items were Revolver, Haunting Guise, Sorc Shoes, and you did way more damage than you will ever do with him now

That wasn't the point we were discussing. You claimed E got nerfed.

In actuality, you can play Morde the exact same way you did before with the exact same item builds and you will do more damage because all of his abilities do more than they did before. Nothing is stopping you from building full AP, especially since your AD ratios are TOTAL which means all you have to do is level up.

JbelsAug 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That wasn't the point we were discussing. You claimed E got nerfed.

In actuality, you can play Morde the exact same way you did before with the exact same item builds and you will do more damage because all of his abilities do more than they did before. Nothing is stopping you from building full AP, especially since your AD ratios are TOTAL which means all you have to do is level up.

and yet Morde's winrate plummeted 10%

KingsgraveAug 22, 201514 votes

{quoted}

and yet Morde's winrate plummeted 10%

Because he doesn't have a W. His winrate as an ADC is 56%.

The rework worked but they just need to give him more power as a laner.

JbelsAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because he doesn't have a W. His winrate as an ADC is 56%.

The rework worked but they just need to give him more power as a laner.

That's the problem! Giving him back W for lane wouldn't solve the issue. They won't give it back to him without heavily gimping it

KingsgraveAug 22, 201510 votes

{quoted}

That's the problem! Giving him back W for lane wouldn't solve the issue. They won't give it back to him without heavily gimping it

Just getting his W on minions at 50% damage and heal would be a buff to his W compared to old W.

JbelsAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Just getting his W on minions at 50% damage and heal would be a buff to his W compared to old W.

The loss of MR/Armor still hurts, but I agree it's a step in the (right?) direction

JustMyBassCannonAug 22, 201513 votes

The lost of MR/Armor doesn't hurt when you have a self-heal that's basically as strong, potentially stronger, and is a more apparent boost in power than 10-30 resistance.

JbelsAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The lost of MR/Armor doesn't hurt when you have a self-heal that's basically as strong, potentially stronger, and is a more apparent boost in power than 10-30 resistance.

Bass! Yeah, I guess the heal is better than the resistances, but the question is how much of it Riot will let Morde have if they DO give him W

Big LincolnAug 22, 20152 votes

the heal doesn't make any sense thematically and it's definitely not better for gameplay than a defensive boost

it is almost entirely "I am going to win this trade, my health costs don't matter now either" what good is that? Vladimir does the same thing once he gets levels vs most top lanes

JustMyBassCannonAug 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEw6H6WZ,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-08-22T21:39:48.240+0000)

the heal doesn't make any sense thematically

I'm sure you could argue that 80% of mana-based champions using mana doesn't make sense "thematically," but the idea of Mordekaiser sustaining himself on the affliction of his opponents is completely fitting to his character.

and it's definitely not better for gameplay than a defensive boost

10-30 Armor/MR versus 50-130 (+30% AP) health.

The only time that amount of Armor/MR will give you more effective health than the base amount of HP healed is if you have 25 or less Armor/MR.

"Better for gameplay" meaning what precisely? Because it's quite obviously better for the champion's gameplay, as it encourages actually trading with opponents, fighting in a group of enemies, and generally doing badass Mordekaiser things.

it is almost entirely "I am going to win this trade, my health costs don't matter now either" what good is that? does the same thing once he gets levels vs most top lanes

It's funny that you tried comparing Mordekaiser to a champion Riot still considers toxic by design.

Nevermind the fact that Mordekaiser's sustain and self-damage are both far lower than Vladimir's.

Baron of BreadAug 22, 20151 votes

You maxed E first on old Morde. If you were to do that with new Morde your E would do less damage than it did if you were old Morde at earlier levels because it scales worse with rank now.

His rank 2-5 E has been nerfed for his lower levels, which is a big deal because he used to max it first. Now you should probably max something else first because the E will scale without ranks and the Q scaling with rank is ridiculous (not sure about how well the W scales with rank, I would have to go check its stats).

What I am saying is that if you play him like old Morde then you will do less damage early but slightly more late (at least with regard to the E, the new Q drastically increases his later damage).

Binxy PrimeAug 22, 20151 votes

You sacrifice the flat pen which is a huge damage boost before and you sacrifice a 15 ap from his runes.

35 + (15AD x 0.60) + (0 x 15AP) =/= 70 + (15AP x 0.60) + 8 flat magic pen

JedenVojakAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It does more damage at rank 1-3 than it did on live.

EDIT: Correction it deals more damage at every rank if you have AD reds and Quints. (15)

It does less damage at every rank even if you have AD reds and Quints, because you no longer have MR pen reds and AP quints have the same ratio for the ability while giving more total AP.

Big LincolnAug 22, 20156 votes

so?

he didn't need to be near you for extended periods of time. It was one Q-empowered AA, not 3. E had more range, he had more movespeed, and his W not only was better, but he could use it by himself

JustMyBassCannonAug 23, 20151 votes

Yay, crappy Boards format making replies a load of balls.

Anyway,

{quoted}

Bass! Yeah, I guess the heal is better than the resistances, but the question is how much of it Riot will let Morde have if they DO give him W

That mostly depends on whether or not they're going to snub classic Mord players or not.

Honestly, a lot of laning diversity issues would be resolved if (a) bruisers were given a reason to duo lane, but could still efficiently solo lane, and (b) if tanks could efficiently solo lane, while still retaining their benefits for duo laning.

JbelsAug 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yay, crappy Boards format making replies a load of balls.

Anyway,

That mostly depends on whether or not they're going to snub classic Mord players or not.

Honestly, a lot of laning diversity issues would be resolved if (a) bruisers were given a reason to duo lane, but could still efficiently solo lane, and (b) if tanks could efficiently solo lane, while still retaining their benefits for duo laning.

This is why I wish they had just gone with a Sion level rework, I don't care how long it would have taken. You can only do so much with a kit designed purely to do damage when you tamper with it without the intention of giving it anything besides damage

Slamurai JackAug 22, 20153 votes

Having his MS lowered all the way to 325 and his E harass damage cut so hard makes his solo laning unviable. If you thought Morde was easy to camp before, now he can't trade against anyone who isn't a vegetable and he's even slower than he already was.

KingsgraveAug 22, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEw6H6WZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-22T18:33:07.863+0000)

Having his MS lowered all the way to 325 and his E harass damage cut so hard makes his solo laning unviable. If you thought Morde was easy to camp before, now he can't trade against anyone who isn't a vegetable and he's even slower than he already was.

E does more damage at all ranks than it did before because of his higher base AD + 60% Total AD ratio.

JbelsAug 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

E does more damage at all ranks than it did before because of his higher base AD + 60% Total AD ratio.

You would be correct if you didn't forget that the old E actually did more damage because of Magic Penetration. Every Morde ran it in runes, and the second and third items picked up were ALWAYS Magic pen items.

Bad PlayerAug 23, 20152 votes

This pic sums it up, basically.

Riot specifically said they would make changes if solo lane Morde ended up not being viable anymore, so... yeah. Obviously it's a bit early, and I'm not sure exactly what changes to make, but I just hope they follow their word and even out Morde.

VhalthoriaAug 23, 20152 votes

So much nonsense one would read from people who obviously didn't play or mained Morde pre rework lol. To say stuff such as he is perfectly fine or viable in solo are clearly trolling or straight up ignorant in the subject.

Morde get's blown by everyone in solo lanes now. And while he might seems strong at bot at the moment due to the random and fresh factor but eventually he will be shut down to full uselessness very soon by experience.

This Morde will never be as good or at the level of the old one.