Veigar's Event Horizon needs a new mechanic. Let's come up with ideas.

CupcakeTrap··19 votes·3,390 views
3/3 PBE Update

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7o6U-fPdhCQ/maxresdefault.jpg

I agree that Veigar's E was problematic as, essentially, a very strange "skillshot" that he had to land on the edge. (Full disclosure: I always sucked at that, so I may be biased.) The problem is that they've removed the edge-stun mechanic but haven't replaced it with anything. What we're left with is a zoning barrier that only stuns a target if they choose to run into it.

Here are some ideas. I'm sure people can think of better ones. But let's at least get a list going for Meddler and the other Reds, to encourage them to not "Cass" Veigar by carving away his unique abilities and then giving him pure numbers buffs until he's viable but boring.

Create a real tradeoff

Give Veigar's opponents a reason why they might want to stun themselves on the edge instead of staying inside the cage.

Right now, Veigar's stun works only as a zoning barrier. There's no reason why anyone should ever actually get stunned by it. If we want to keep a stun as a big part of Veigar's kit, and we don't want Veigar to be able to insta-stun someone by placing the skill just-so, we pretty much have to come up with some reason for the enemy to potentially want to stun themselves.

There's already a very limited exception: if you're fleeing from or chasing Veigar, and he hasn't leveled his E up very much, you might want to eat a 2s stun rather than waiting 3s for the walls to go down. But other than that, the only way people get stunned by it is if they don't know how it works or panic.

Perhaps there could be some way to create such a tradeoff. For example, maybe it shreds MR while you're inside the cage, but you lose the debuff if you run into the wall. Basically, that would create a tradeoff between dodging spells (Q/W) that will hit extra-hard if they do land and taking a guaranteed full rotation at less damage. Or you could increase the amount of time before the walls collapse to 5s, to match Anivia's wall; that'd make it a more serious tradeoff between being zoned for 5s or escaping the zone but getting slammed with a meteor.

Or you could give Veigar's meteor (Dark Matter, W) a reduced cooldown if cast in the central part of the cage. This would make it less costly for him to sling meteors at you while you dance around inside the cage. Someone might choose to eat one meteor and get out of the cage than to risk being hit with two.

Stun caged targets if struck by Q

Give Veigar a way to stun targets by landing a "real" skillshot.

Another option for retaining a stun mechanic: if a target is struck by Q while inside the cage, they're immediately stunned. Veigar's stun would become a 1-2 punch with more counterplay: he throws the cage, but only gets to stun you if he tags you with a skillshot.

Mana drain (or cooldown amplification)

Make it costlier for opponents to fight Veigar from inside the cage.

Manaburn is a classically "anti-fun" mechanic, but maybe this would be one place for it: while inside the rage-cage, targets' mana costs are increased by X%. Alternatively, it could just increase cooldowns of abilities used inside the Event Horizon, alluding to the time distortion observed near a black hole.

Simulate a gravitational pull

Slow targets more the closer they are to the center.

Of course, Veigar doesn't necessarily NEED a stun, so long as you replace it with something.

A "gravitational pull" effect, slowing targets more the closer they are to the center, would certainly be themely. Also, in addition to representing the black hole phenomenon the spell is named after, this would create a somewhat interesting choice: running toward the edge makes it easier for Veigar to hit you with a meteor, while staying in the center keeps you further from him and slows you more.

Cooldown reset

Reward Veigar for getting kills on a caged target.

Another idea: if Veigar kills an enemy while they're inside the Event Horizon, the cage vanishes and the cooldown on Event Horizon (not his other spells) is reset, allowing him to throw it again. This would reward Veigar for managing to kill a target inside his cage by allowing him to throw it again to help his team.

31 Comments

DrCyanide7 votes

I think the gravity simulation would be the best idea. I mean, the ability is called "Event Horizon". Make it have something to do with a black hole/gravity.

Warning: Crazy idea inbound

What if Veigar's E wasn't just a stun-wall cage?

What if it was some sort of AoE that applied an effect that felt like gravity? You can run towards the center, getting faster the closer you are to it, but then you slow down as you try and move towards the edge. Enemies in it can choose to try and dive towards the center to miss a skillshot, or they can try and skirt around the edge to keep their mobility.

Additionally, what if friendly units only were effected by the speed boost?

Suddenly a "stun only" ability has far more meaningful decisions for both the player trapped and the player dropping it.

Volt Cruelerz5 votes

Well, there's always what I said in these threads for a rework, but barring something so drastic... (Though I really do like the second one...)

Though if we're looking at something along the lines of a black hole, I think I've got something that might work.

E: Veigar spawns an accretion disk of radius 400, interrupting any enemies within the radius. Enemies within the accretion disk are pulled toward the center (though enemies that are snared/rooted/Zhonya'd/Frozen Tomb'd/Tempered Fate'd/etc cannot be dislocated) at 60/70/80/90/100 units/s^2 at the edge, increasing to 300/375/450/525/600 units/s^2 at the center. After 1 second, a 200 unit radius black hole appears at the center of the disk. Enemies that enter the black hole vanish to all players outside the radius and the black hole becomes targetable for Veigar. If Veigar hits the black hole with Q, W, or R, the damage will be dealt to all enemies within the black hole. The black hole and evaporates after 3 seconds (the accretion disk vanishes along with it). Casting Primordial Burst on the black hole will destroy the black hole and accretion disk.

Enemies trapped within the black hole cannot exit via dashes, though they can continue to cast spells on each other and themselves, Trapped enemies cannot cast any ability that would leave the black hole (though things like Karthus, Soraka, and TF ults would work just fine). Gravitational pull of Event Horizon is reduced by Tenacity, not in duration, but in how strongly it pulls you.

There. Veigar now has an interrupt/slow for defensive use and in teamfights can assist in locking down an enemy. Combine Veigar with Ashe or hurricane Kalista and you'll be able to suck in (and then proceed to delete) several members of the enemy team.

Counterplay? Loads. There's a full second before the black hole spawns and while if Veigar casts it directly on top of you, you're not going to be able to escape it, you have the option to unload on him first/escape with abilities/cast defensive spells before the black hole spawns. Similarly, once the black hole spawns, you can cast defensive spells or blink away. On top of this, Tenacity may just allow you to escape. Further, once Veigar uses his ult to smash the black hole (and everyone in it), they're immediately freed to run for the hills.

Big Lincoln4 votes

I think if Riot wants to push him as a burst mage who gets to torture you once he's boxed you in, they should let him get a little more hectic when he casts stuff in it. And I think this would be a pretty good time to make him more interesting and stand out further as the #1 overkill mage

Baleful Strike could, for example:

-Become a projectile that pierces through everyone and does not stop at 2 units hit. This gives him a strong reward in managing to trap multiple people in his box. To make it work, it would always travel from one side to the other -- so it gives him long range poke if he hits an outer wall with the maximum of his Q.

Dark Matter

I think simply a bigger AoE when cast inside of Event Horizon would work wonders. On the other hand, giving him some sort of 'power-mode' where he's allowed to drop numerous meteors in quick succession could serve the idea of 'insane powerful sorceror' much better. Or, to further limit enemy breathing room, a meteor dropped in the box could stun -- the stun duration increasing the closer either it or they are to the center.

Primordial Burst

This is wayyyy out there, but what if his ultimate, when lobbed into the cage, put out half of its damage as splash? It gives him obscene AoE on the condition that it HAS to be within a small area, but I'm a tad worried this could easily prove problematic. I would happily give up enemy AP scaling for this, though.

thinking man4 votes

I posted this in another thread, I made, but nerf the actual power of the stun to like 1.5 seconds, make his E have a lower CD at max rank, and then give his abilities crazy effects for being cast in the cage.

His Q could bounce around the cage to make his enemies dance

W creates a gravity field around the W drop effect, dragging enemies inwards towards it and then slowing them as they run out

R would create a black hole in the cage which deals additional damage and sucks up enemies caught, remove the 80% of enemy champion's AP but give it another .2 ratio and make it deal half of the damage in the black hole

So basically he gets people in the cage then he makes them dodge a bunch of space projectiles while being sucked inwards towards devastation before consuming their mangled corpses into a black hole

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

{quoted}

I posted this in another thread, I made, but nerf the actual power of the stun to like 1.5 seconds, make his E have a lower CD at max rank, and then give his abilities crazy effects for being cast in the cage.

His Q could bounce around the cage to make his enemies dance

W creates a gravity field around the W drop effect, dragging enemies inwards towards it and then slowing them as they run out

R would create a black hole in the cage which deals additional damage and sucks up enemies caught, remove the 80% of enemy champion's AP but give it another .2 ratio and make it deal half of the damage in the black hole

So basically he gets people in the cage then he makes them dodge a bunch of space projectiles while being sucked inwards towards devastation before consuming their mangled corpses into a black hole

This is why Veigar can't have nice things, because of people like you. You want an almost lane wide AOE stun under 10 second cooldown. AND You want it to enhance his other spells. AND You don't even understand how ridiculously strong that would be.

I understand that Veigar needs help, but making him completely broken is not any better than overnerfed.

thinking man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEuzazm2,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-03-04T20:55:44.379+0000)

This is why Veigar can't have nice things, because of people like you. You want an almost lane wide AOE stun under 10 second cooldown. AND You want it to enhance his other spells. AND You don't even understand how ridiculously strong that would be.

I understand that Veigar needs help, but making him completely broken is not any better than overnerfed.

The post under 10 never was said. It's 12 at max rank. It could easily be 11 or 10, it doesn't have to be much lower.

It's nerfing his stun a by quite a bit in raw power.

His other spells would obviously get nerfs to their power, it'd just be funny to watch.

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

{quoted}

The post under 10 never was said. It's 12 at max rank. It could easily be 11 or 10, it doesn't have to be much lower.

It's nerfing his stun a by quite a bit in raw power.

His other spells would obviously get nerfs to their power, it'd just be funny to watch.

That's without CDR, Masteries + cdr blues bring it automatically under 10 seconds if the current CD is lowered by even 1 seconds, which that person suggested. That's not even counting the morello or athene you'll be 100% getting anyway.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Make it so landing Baleful Strike, after it goes through Event Horizon, stuns the enemies hit.

Unedible3 votes

What if his E now worked like Viktor's gravity field?

Still having the small delay on the stun part, but having the inside of the cage slow, while touching the wall will stun.

Curling Veigar3 votes

I'd rather just remove the enemy 80% ap thing and make his ult 150% of his own ap

So he doesn't oneshot mages but does better versus everyone, overall.

Juggernaut6282 votes

Like I have said in quite a few posts, there is nothing wrong with Veigar. His stun is easy to land unless the person you are stunning has a dash or flashes. I do like some of the ideas you put out though.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

{quoted}

Like I have said in quite a few posts, there is nothing wrong with Veigar. His stun is easy to land unless the person you are stunning has a dash or flashes. I do like some of the ideas you put out though.

Thanks! But in the matches I've played with him, the only times I stunned someone were when they either were already CC'd or they obviously just didn't understand how the cage worked and deliberately ran into the wall. Once my MMR dropped enough, people did start running into the walls, and I did 100-0 them, but I felt really stupid about it, like I was just taking advantage of them not knowing how my Champion worked.

LeonDemonOfDeath2 votes

What if it started out as a wall, and starting snaking around the enemy, entrapping them. Its "snaking around" would increase with Veigar mov speed? Just a pitch here.

The Paulrus2 votes

I have an idea that might be worth talking about. Make his E modify the other abilities.

Q- Veigar's Q passes through all targets instead of 2 when cast through a wall of event horizon with 10% reduced damage per enemy hit (minimum 50%). (Think Ezreal 's W)

W- Upon striking the ground inside of the event horizon, Veigar's W creates a gravitational field that pulls all enemies inside the event horizon towards it. (Think Viktor 's upgraded W)

R- When cast on an enemy stunned by the edge of the event horizon, travels around the event horizon dealing 50% damage to all enemies on the edge before releasing an AOE inside the event horizon that deals 30% damage to all enemies stunned by or inside the event horizon.

I think this would add more flexibility to Veigar and some interesting mechanics.

Blainezy2 votes

The only way to make people want to stun themselves is to have his Dark Matter damage the whole inner circle, or abilities in the circle do boosted damage.

Audiomancy2 votes

I like the idea of upgrading abilities by firing them through E. Sounds like a CertainlyT design.

NorthernDruid2 votes

One of the really cool ideas I remember from an earlier thread (I don't take credit for it, because I can't remember where it came from). Was to have the walls (and as such the area within) shrink, so an enemy trapped inside will get stunned sooner or later.

You could easily tack on other stuff there as well, such as the stun being shorter the smaller the area has gotten, but if taking the stun at the end still left you out of it longer than if you had simply walked into the stun from the beginning.

Stuff like that.

Make it a guaranteed CC... eventually.

And then make it so that I have to react quickly if I wanna flash out of it, rewarding me for not panicking.

Alternatively, a silence inside would also be interesting.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

One of the really cool ideas I remember from an earlier thread (I don't take credit for it, because I can't remember where it came from). Was to have the walls (and as such the area within) shrink, so an enemy trapped inside will get stunned sooner or later.

You could easily tack on other stuff there as well, such as the stun being shorter the smaller the area has gotten, but if taking the stun at the end still left you out of it longer than if you had simply walked into the stun from the beginning.

Stuff like that.

Make it a guaranteed CC... eventually.

And then make it so that I have to react quickly if I wanna flash out of it, rewarding me for not panicking.

Alternatively, a silence inside would also be interesting.

Good insights. Yeah, I agree: it needs to do SOMETHING other than just be there. There should be some way for an enemy to get stunned other than "they don't realize how the skill works and run into the wall by accident".

DrMarshSwamp1 votes

I think it should have an increasing slow on targets inside it, along with disabling any movement-based abilities.

Omnipherious1 votes

Event Horizon Creates a cage at the target location for a short time. Enemies caught the in perimeter of the cage are stunned. Stunned enemies are immune to all abilities (friendly and hostile) but not basic attacks (both Veigar and his allies).

Goal #Counterplay

  1. If you are in the cage, you can fight but risk getting killed by Veigar and friends.
  2. If you stun yourself, you are protected from all hostile abilities but forgo friendly ability aid as well.
  3. The cast delay can now be removed since both Veigar and his would-be victim know the exact window before ability damage becomes relevant again. If Veigar times it perfectly, he can get an insta-kill as the stuns wears out. Meanwhile, the victim still has a small window of opportunity to respond.
  4. The victim can attempt to fight Veigar then stun themselves to evade his abilities.
Volt Cruelerz3 votes

That would be terrible. Primordial Burst coming at me? Let me just walk into the stun wall to void all of Veigar's damage.

Omnipherious1 votes

See previous point 3, "The cast delay can now be removed ... "

Veigar would regain his ability to instantly stun people by catching them with the edge of Event Horizon. He can W > Q > R successfully as long as he times the stun expiry right.

OP wanted a suggestion where your opponent would have a reason to run into it. That's why the suggestion is the way it is.

Veigar regains his previous ability to instantly stop enemies in their tracks with good placement or set up for a burst combo.

Poor placement allows your opponent(s) the chance to negate abilities by stunning themselves, sure, but teams run a physical damage dealer which the stun does not grant immunity from.

If a Vayne gets caught in the centre of a cage versus Veigar + Xerath, she can make the decision to stun herself to evade the magic damage and buy time for teammates to get in closer for aid after the stun expires.

If Vayne get's caught on the edge and is instantly stunned, Xerath can move into position and time E for another lockdown + kill secure.

People already time spells in accordance with the expiry of Zhonya's invulnerability and the revive of Guardian Angel.

Audiomancy1 votes

No thank you. Support Veigar is not - nor should it ever be - a thing.

Omnipherious1 votes

At no point do I even suggest relegating Veigar to a supportive role. That is your own poor assumption. I don't think such a change would make him good only as a support, that's what you think.

I made a suggestion according to OP's desired guidelines.

Create a real tradeoff Give Veigar's opponents a reason why they might want to stun themselves on the edge instead of staying inside the cage.

That's what OP said/wanted and my suggestion is my interpretation of Event Horizon accomplishing exactly that.

If you read, "stun makes target magic immune" and immediately tune out then that is your problem.

The suggestion I outline also includes removing the casting delay for Event Horizon which everyone absolutely hates. In case you don't understand the implications of the delay removal, it means he can catch people reliably; something he has lost with the changes currently on live.

Audiomancy1 votes

If you read, "stun makes target magic immune" and immediately tune out then that is your problem.

No, I saw "but not basic attacks."

Wanna know who uses primarily basic attacks to deal damage? ADCs! Wanna know who lanes with ADCs? Supports! Wanna know where Veigar definitely should never go? Support!

The changes you suggested would make his new role pretty obvious.

Omnipherious1 votes

Every champion has basic attacks.

If you have ever played the game at a reasonably high level you would realize that even ranged AP champions weave basic attacks between spells.

Say you catch someone at the edge of your stun, you now have 1.5 - 2.5 seconds. What are you going to do? Stand around? Of course not.

You walk up while landing autos, cast W, auto again, then Q > R as they come out of stun. Every little bit of damage counts.

Orianna, Leblanc, Ahri, Viktor, Lissandra, Cassio, all weave in plenty of autos in addition to their spells.

You can downvote and try to blame your narrow-mindedness on me all you like, but the fact remains that any competent mage player will make the most of their auto-attacks.

Audiomancy1 votes

That's all well and good, but Veigar isn't exactly known for his basic attack power. AA's are great early on but past level 9 or so they really won't be doing much and you know clearly know that.

UPfreely1 votes

honestly i would love if it created a sort of physical barrier like jarvan ult where he bends space to empower his spells. you can look at my rework ideas if u want to read more about it. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/8sp09K5m-my-veigar-rework

Whimsicalliope1 votes

You could give the pre-cage a gravity field effect, slowing people within the perimeter until the stun edge comes up. I also thought that, since Riot wants Veigar to do a 180 with his play style and focus on trapping people within, that dark matter gets an upgrade if cast inside event horizon. It could come down faster (gravity theme), or the AOE gets bigger so you'd have a better shot of hitting trapped but unstained champs? Hey, maybe his Q could gain a homing property if it goes through the horizon wall? That'd be neat.

Thresh Outta Fux1 votes

Make it so that casting W inside of E increases the meteor size to fill the cage, while reducing the damage. Casting it on the edge or outside of Event Horizon would return it to it's high-damage small-aoe size.

BrutusTheCat1 votes

One of the biggest problems with Veigar's kit as is stands right now is that all his offensive and defensive plays are tied to the use of his E, I am a huge fan of any solution that would off load some of his kits power to any of his other skills.

A mechanic that might be nice would be adding a slow to the landing area of his W, this would give him a little more in terms of spells he could put to defensive use, as well as adding more interplay between his skills giving more tactical to Veigar players. Otherwise you could look at making the W land instantly within the cage, but really I would like to see some expanded defensive options for Veigar as he is almost a free kill to assassins right now.

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