It's tough to say what toplane needs

Crispy0Snake·Jul 5, 2019·12 votes·9,648 views

It's all good Hashinshin making a load of tweets about the issues he finds, but he can't offer a single good solution

Most of the changes he puts forward are ridiculous. If he wants top to be a 1v1 lane with no junglers, then the counterpick problem gets worse, if you introduce jungle interaction then he gets ganked and says junglers OP

Like what can riot do to please the guy? They have all of these characters that fill specific roles within their lane AND their team, you can't balance them all to a 50% winrate vs eachother, and that doesn't mean that the game is broken at a foundation level either. Champions coming in or going out of the meta through buffs/nerfs is healthy and keeps things fresh

If he wants his lane to be a 1v1, he has to track the enemy jungler better and communicate with his jungler, that's the most he can do

64 Comments

VentusKingJul 5, 201916 votes

I think as a toplane main the problems are:Kleptomancy being completly overpowered in a range into meele matchup,Mages being able to go full tank and outdamage you by getting early klepto item powerspikes, Mage items being overpowered which allows Kennen and Vlad to spike hard very early (protobelt zhonya combo) and Junglers having too much free time

Z3SleeperJul 5, 20192 votes

I personally don't think Vlad is an issue anymore.

Here's my list though:

Note that this don't necessarily mean they win the game but god do they make laning impossible.

Overpowered - Neeko Kennen TahmKench Gangplank Akali Heimerdinger Jayce ( Karma ?)

These champions have effectively no mana costs and can simply wall melee champs out from a distance. A non-overpowered melee champion who attempts to close the gap on them just loses every time.
These champions also typically have total top priority against non-overpowered champions, meaning river vision is typically impossible to attain.
These champions also have the tools to either easily lock down the enemy for a gank or are only killable in a position where a jungle gank would be devastating (plus lack of vision due to the above) and can easily poke and later dive the enemy under turret (ignoring the poke part if jungler is present).

######somewhere in between - Teemo Rengar

Definitely too strong - Renekton Irelia

These are champions that are way too strong but are a necessary evil to deal with the tier above them.
These champions also typically have total top priority against tiers below them, meaning river vision is typically impossible to attain.
These champions also have the tools to either easily lock down the enemy for a gank or are only killable in a position where a jungle gank would be devastating (plus lack of vision due to the above) and can easily poke and later dive the enemy under turret (ignoring the poke part if jungler is present).

######somewhere in between - Camille

Probably too strong - Aatrox Jax Tryndamere Fiora Mordekaiser

These champions are late game monsters that for whatever reason absolutely bop any champion that isn't the above mentioned in lane.

######somewhere in between - DrMundo (absolute shit tier design, more braindead than Garen but completely uninteractive)

Balanced top laners (doesn't mean they don't have their own issues, such as Illaoi being an absolute pain to lane against)

######idk where to put these - Sylas Viktor Vladimir

Too weak - Malphite Ornn

ArfBarkBoofJul 6, 20191 votes

I can't take the fact that people seriously think Renekton is overpowered as anything but satire. The croc is an early-to-mid game champion like Pantheon. Yeah, his decision making right now boils down to having enough rage to get an empowered W off but he's not nearly as obnoxiously bloated as Irelia, or as much of a pain to lane against as the updated Illaoi.

Z3SleeperJul 6, 20191 votes

Irelia? I didn't think she had any presence in your mmr. Guess not then?

Illaoi is understandable, Juggernauts tend to dominate lower brackets but she's also still strong now in higher level play. Even mentioned her in the post.

ArfBarkBoofJul 6, 20191 votes

Irelia has enough of a presence in my ELO that I'd rather ban her over Riven because the only people I encounter who play her are one tricks who can't win without an absolutely obnoxious character. It's funny when people cry about all the stuff that's stripped out of her kit but she's still if played well, one of the most dominant lane bullies in the game.

Sure, the difference between a bad Irelia and a good one is pretty distinct, but she literally has 200 auto attack range on top of a passive that out-scales Jax until level 7, where he can just pummel the ever living snot out of her.

boricCentaur1Jul 5, 20198 votes

Yeah my opinion on hashinshin is that he should NEVER be listen to. Like I remember way back before swain was reworked he was asking for swain nerfs keep in mind this was season 7 swain and that was the moment I knew he was bs. Guy has 0 clue what he is talking about.

In my opinion the biggest problem in top lane is snowball, riot should shift power from early game to mid and land game with a lot of the champions and buff the defensive starting items for top lane.

RagnaveilJul 5, 20195 votes

and also nerf more ranged picks in their base stats so melees have the usage of that to abuse. Cuz if theres one thing I dont understand, its why in the hell does Teemo have such good base armor and base armor scaling with such a toxic kit? Karma has good base armor too, but if Riot made the tether heal something different that isnt missing hp, the tank build would cease to exist.

But a large part of the issue is the fact theres way too many champions that can go top that the lane is hard to balance. They didn't bother try balancing the lane until the tank meta was enforced by ADCs being godlike champs. They quickly tried killing it after it got repetitive, but that didn't solve the issue for top, cuz with tanks gone, shit hit the fan even more. Tops about snowballing, but theres so many mini counters and shit and a ton of them, the only thing a top can really do right now is pick Aatrox and pray for the best.

If that isn't screaming bad balance design for a lane, idk what else is.

VentusKingJul 5, 20194 votes

If you pick any other meele than aatrox people will pick tank karma kennen or vladimir and shut down the lane completly reducing your ingame impact to 0

GayFluffyUnicornJul 5, 20191 votes

Lol? Season 7 swain was hella strong what are u on about? Like i know what u post on these boards but its getting ridiculous at some point. Toplane swain was insanely strong and if you played against a good one and you weren't like kled who can instantly gapclose and oneshot you it wasn't rare to be four levels behind and half cs at best one of the reasons i actuall refused to play swain top and instead played him mid because of how boring and abusive it was. Holy shit dude, play the game before you try to shittalk someone with valid complaints and if you still think swain was bad try to dig out old stats of mains averaging 60+% winrate on him. Also swain wasn't easy to play mind you, he had like 18 base armor and shitty health. So if you didn't know how to space properly and wasted your 15+ seconds CD spells you were doomed in top. Beginners had winrates of under 40% slowly going up until 50 games played to break even and from then on the winrate skyrocketed.

HàrrowRJul 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah my opinion on hashinshin is that he should NEVER be listen to. Like I remember way back before swain was reworked he was asking for swain nerfs keep in mind this was season 7 swain and that was the moment I knew he was bs. Guy has 0 clue what he is talking about.

In my opinion the biggest problem in top lane is snowball, riot should shift power from early game to mid and land game with a lot of the champions and buff the defensive starting items for top lane.

He's wrong about a lot of things but is also right about a lot of things, it's just the fact that he's complaining like all the time so there's a lot of info to go on to, you could just look at all of the things he said that were wrong and say hey this guy doesn't know anything, or you could look at all of the things that he got right and think he's always right.

He was complaining about klepto top laners, ranged top laners, iceborn gaunt viktor and issues like that way before anyone ever noticed that to be a problem, he's also completely right when complaining about gangplank or panth and just how unfun the dynamic is of them pressing q whenever youre in range and then just finishing you off. I mean he even calls out champs that he plays for being strong like Aatrox for example and has a good understanding of top lane champion's strengths and weaknesses.

Though his complaining is sometimes so ridiculous and that's the charm of it, i remember a video of him being a lvl 3 kled with 60% hp, diving a full hp lvl 4 nasus, barely not killing nasus and dying and then he goes like, you know what guys, nasus is just seriously overstat and everyone loses their shit.

One time he dived a fed Draven that had tabis and his support, they had to blow literally every CD to kill him and Draven was left at like 150 hp and then he starts complaining about supports or draven or something, it's actually funny af

The thigh guyJul 5, 20192 votes

Top doesn’t need anything but nerfs.

They are the only role that can single handedly win a game.

VentusKingJul 5, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-05T02:31:31.604+0000)

Top doesn’t need anything but nerfs.

They are the only role that can single handedly win a game.

Toplane is the lane with the least impact the higher you climb mid Junglers and adcs have almost double the chance to solo carry the game actually. And if you talk about Jax and Irelia these are special cases that only solo carry if fed to beyond.

The thigh guyJul 5, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-05T02:34:55.706+0000)

Toplane is the lane with the least impact the higher you climb mid Junglers and adcs have almost double the chance to solo carry the game actually. And if you talk about Jax and Irelia these are special cases that only solo carry if fed to beyond.

That’s a good meme. Let’s look at current ops for top lane. Riven - unstoppable monster Aatrox - unstoppable monster Irelia - unstoppable monster Jax - unstoppable monster Camille - unstoppable monster Urgot - unstoppable monster Kled - unstoppable monster Yoric - unstoppable monster

But yeah. Totally. Nice meme.

ForstedminiwheatJul 5, 201910 votes

Kled - unstoppable monster

Imagine unironically believing this

VentusKingJul 5, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T02:44:41.428+0000)

That’s a good meme. Let’s look at current ops for top lane. Riven - unstoppable monster Aatrox - unstoppable monster Irelia - unstoppable monster Jax - unstoppable monster Camille - unstoppable monster Urgot - unstoppable monster Kled - unstoppable monster Yoric - unstoppable monster

But yeah. Totally. Nice meme.

I never had problems with riven because I personaly can deal with her inlane but I still give you a check on that one. Aatrox has a 50 if not below 50% winrate and is pretty balanced right now and no im not playing or abusing aatrox to climb. Irelia and Jax are true IF they get hyperfed. Camille can hard carry but it's really hard with her. Urgot and Yorick are kiteable af and can't handle grouped up 1v3-5s really because ranged champions have an easy time to destroy them when they play on distance. I think you put Kled there for a meme who the fck even plays that champ he has soo much exploitable weaknesses

The thigh guyJul 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-05T11:19:35.516+0000)

I never had problems with riven because I personaly can deal with her inlane but I still give you a check on that one. Aatrox has a 50 if not below 50% winrate and is pretty balanced right now and no im not playing or abusing aatrox to climb. Irelia and Jax are true IF they get hyperfed. Camille can hard carry but it's really hard with her. Urgot and Yorick are kiteable af and can't handle grouped up 1v3-5s really because ranged champions have an easy time to destroy them when they play on distance. I think you put Kled there for a meme who the fck even plays that champ he has soo much exploitable weaknesses

Urgot with deaths dance is physically not killable after level 9. His ult basically says “you have to kill me with 30-40% less hp than you have, or I win by default”

And yoric. I’ve played this champion and fair amount. If he has 4 ghouls and his maiden, he can VERY easily 1v4.

As for Kled. Have you ever seen a Kled get even a slight lead? Suddenly, the opponent just doesn’t get to play anymore.

AlterMordredJul 5, 20194 votes

Imagine reaching a point in your life where you without sarcasm believe Kled and Yorick are unstoppable monsters

GayFluffyUnicornJul 5, 20192 votes

The role that singlehandedly win games so hard the top 50 of challenger has 3 toplane mains. Btw you can expand that to 100 doesn't change much.

I can see how everyone goes crazy at wanting to play toplane to carry themselves so high. Not like mid or adc mains who basically make up all of challenger lol and still more junglers than toplaner :)

Were even in fuckin pro play the best toplaner in the world says "yeah my role basically doesn't matter for the outcome of a game so i just went for the int" from an interview of theshy why he went for a play.

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

The higher you go in Elo the less toplane mains are there actually the rate of toplaners drops the higher you go in Elo. and 3 out of 50 are Toplaners YIKES how many adc jungle mid and support mains must be there then

The thigh guyJul 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The role that singlehandedly win games so hard the top 50 of challenger has 3 toplane mains. Btw you can expand that to 100 doesn't change much.

I can see how everyone goes crazy at wanting to play toplane to carry themselves so high. Not like mid or adc mains who basically make up all of challenger lol and still more junglers than toplaner :)

Were even in fuckin pro play the best toplaner in the world says "yeah my role basically doesn't matter for the outcome of a game so i just went for the int" from an interview of theshy why he went for a play.

Oh no. It doesn’t do well in the top .1% of the game. :c

They are playing a different game. So unless EVERYONE you run into is playing their champions to 100% peak preformance, that argument is invalid.

And if you say they are I can and will call you a liar.

FSRERJul 5, 20191 votes

You must have confused Toplane with Jungle. Toplane is one of the least impactful lane (with the exception of maybe 4 champions). You have Jungle which is the deciding factor of the game, you have Midlane, which is the second most impactful lane, ADC and Support role with Toplane competing for the least impact and so far, Support is way more impactful than Toplane

The thigh guyJul 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You must have confused Toplane with Jungle. Toplane is one of the least impactful lane (with the exception of maybe 4 champions). You have Jungle which is the deciding factor of the game, you have Midlane, which is the second most impactful lane, ADC and Support role with Toplane competing for the least impact and so far, Support is way more impactful than Toplane

Oh yeah. That jungler that is ALWAYS lower level than everyone else in the game, and has probably on par gold income with the support. So op. So impactful is he. So much so that going even with any laner requires multiple kills and leeching lane xp from them.

Jungle is a meme of a role.

Hayaishi2Jul 5, 20192 votes

The problem goes deeper than top lane. It is a design problem that shouldn've been solved long ago.

The fact that someone can pick Vayne into Darius and just auto win without Darius having a say in it or never have a chance to actually contest anything Vayne does is simply not fun to play. So basically either i'm last pick or i can't play what i want. No other lane is so counterpick dependent.

This problem should've been eliminated from the root when it first appeared. But since it doesn't happen in pro play Riot doesn't care. Too busy manipulating the meta to suit their needs to actually balance the game around healthy gameplay.

It's been 9 seasons and Riot still doesn't care about making the game fun for everyone. Every patch there are some useless buffs and nerfs that don't really change anything just so the balance team feel like they are putting in some work.

If every lane had to deal with the stuff top lane does every season this game's popularity would've never reached the level it did. I don't even main top lane but if bot lane was like this i would've quit long ago.

Moody PJul 5, 20193 votes

stop using Vayne top as your go to criticism, there are plenty of more annoying lanes that actually show up in top and dominate the game instead of just being disrespect counterpick

Hayaishi2Jul 5, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-07-05T12:35:52.725+0000)

stop using Vayne top as your go to criticism, there are plenty of more annoying lanes that actually show up in top and dominate the game instead of just being disrespect counterpick

So? Kennen, Jayce... its all the same shit tbh.

preternaturalJul 5, 20191 votes

remove teleport from the game.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

i said the same thing but boards just called me inexperienced and brushed off how broken the SS is

preternaturalJul 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Luther King Jr V,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-07-05T03:41:52.333+0000)

i said the same thing but boards just called me inexperienced and brushed off how broken the SS is

they just can't admit that they have no clue how to manage creep waves without the teleport crutch.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

not only that but the global presence in map is also too strong i just hate tp..

VentusKingJul 5, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Luther King Jr V,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T09:49:09.879+0000)

not only that but the global presence in map is also too strong i just hate tp..

TP has a 6 Minute cooldown if your not shen how the fck is the global pressence to strong? The first tp mostly is used for an early back there you got 6mins without fear. Most toplaners even use it just to get back to their lane until lanephase is over. TP is so nerfed from adcs and midlaners abusing it that it really isnt a great summoner spell but the only viable one if you atleast want to have minimal impact in toplane.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

like when fiora tps mid out of vision and gets a double kill or yorick tps bot kills the adc and the dragon while still being a splitpushing monster

that's HOW

VentusKingJul 5, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Luther King Jr V,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T11:26:12.899+0000)

like when fiora tps mid out of vision and gets a double kill or yorick tps bot kills the adc and the dragon while still being a splitpushing monster

that's HOW

You can still see the tp and have 3 seconds of channel time to move your arse away from there. Literally your fault if you just stay there and watch the tp happen instead of trying to avoid it.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

i am top i don't see any tp they do it out of vision do u understand that part

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

i dont mean that you have time to cancel the tp. The laners have time to move their arse away from the teleporting person you have 3 seconds that more than enough time to do so. If you die to a tp gank its your fault really.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

its mid and bot who dies i am not the one who died here and tp is still annoying af regardless of who dies to it

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

You also have a tp to follow and prevent them from dying.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

i dont use tp

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

then thats your problem honestly.

Luther King Jr VJul 5, 20191 votes

nope

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20191 votes

Hashinshin and his fangays are all 100% bruiser mains who want to play nothing but bruisers

them hating counterpicks is not a surprise

if they were proper league players that knew how to draft they would know to pick rumble into jayce but they can't draft properly making them hating couterpick

because they want league to be "pick the most broken champ" and "having no brain to actually draft" because they don't have an actual brain to draft in a moba that is league.

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

Guess what: Picking rumble into Jayce wont help me win if i can't play or never even played rumble. Counterpicks only work if you know how the counterpick works you galaxy brain

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-07-05T12:51:38.141+0000)

if i can't play or never even played rumble.

you need a first time for everything to know to do something do you really expect to be good at piano when you never did piano? it's literally the same for everything

Even TF Blade who plays like 4 bruisers still play other champions like Kennen when it's necessary.

Good players will eventually play other champions because league is a moba and in a moba you need to know how to draft

That's the difference between a good player like TF blade, and a subhuman like Hashinshin

ZardoJul 5, 20193 votes

That's the difference between a good player like TF blade, and a subhuman like Hashinshin

No. Just no. That's not the difference.

Wave management. Wave management around the enemy jungler. Proper TP plays. Snowballing leads to other lanes PROPERLY. Properly positioning mid-late. Engaging at the right times. These are some of the many things that actually separate TF blade from hashinshin, not some champ select BS.

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20193 votes

you're right, I should have said "a difference" instead of "the difference"

not some champ select BS.

like WHAT THE $$$$?

Hashinshin sees Cass toplane and picks an immobile melee into her TF blade seees Cass toplane and picks kennen toplane

you can stay entilted to "mwaaa I wanna play bruisers" but a smart player like TF blade will not want to suffer on purpose, and will play something else when he knows that ITS NOT POSSIBLE to play some champions in some situations

AlterMordredJul 5, 20191 votes

Yah dude, lets compare playing Piano to playing Rumble

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20191 votes

you're right

rumble is braindead, and shouldn't be compared to something that takes skill like the piano

VentusKingJul 5, 20191 votes

It actually takes fcking good decision making and knowledge of teamfighting to land a good game changing rumble ult.

AlterMordredJul 5, 20191 votes

Uh, im a Hash fan and he has good and bad points tbh, I agree with him for most of his opinions on Kennen and Gp for example but his call for nerfs on Teemo for example dont make sense to me

GayFluffyUnicornJul 5, 20191 votes

Not everyone has the luxury of being a proper league player and being able to just pick kai'sa every game :^)

And if kai'sa isn't available just pick ez or sivir. Proper high iq botlane drafters :D Always a set of three champions who u can just pick every game.

D357R0Y3RJul 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

And if kai'sa isn't available just pick ez or sivir. Proper high iq botlane drafters :D Always a set of three champions who u can just pick every game.

in fact, if the enemey blind picked Kai'sa you can easily counter her with Ashe now that Ashe is S tier with triforce.

Botlane has more hard counters than toplaner, and even harsher hard counters lucian gets poked into oblivious with 500 range vs cait''s 650 range while getting outscaled by her.

Fping Ezreal and Sivir means you let the enemy team getting a free lane with hypercarries that are much stronger in late game like kog/jinx because you can't bully them