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Brand's base damage is too high

Crispy0Snake··84 votes·18,651 views

Simply that. His damage is higher than most midlaners across the board. Pillar of flame has such a large AOE that it is impossible to dodge so when you go to cs he'll just EW for 50% of your hp. The only skillshot is his Q which pretty much guarantees a kill if he lands it. I've tried shoving, freezing and letting the wave crash under turret, I've tried short trades and long trades, I cannot win lane against him.

You can argue his AP scaling is lower but his passive does %max health damage so he has good scaling there.

TL; DR His base damage is far too high and that damage is far too easy to get off

Edit: I am talking about Brand mid, however I am a support main, and everything I have said here applies there too. Also any mid with a mobility spell should be okay, but when I mid I play Ryze/Syndra so maybe that's where I'm going wrong

Also people say his W is easy to dodge... wat. Have you not seen how wide his W is? Syndra can hit Q's that have a similar delay and they are much smaller AOE's, so Brand can definitely hit his W on someone 90% of the time. Saying "Just dodge a massive AOE spell, it's easy" is really quite silly

Just to demonstrate the point of the damage he deals:

Syndra Q: 50 / 95 / 140 / 185 / 230 (+ 65% AP)

Brand W: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) (Non empowered. Also this is a much larger AOE ability and will add a stack of his passive to a target)

Meaning Brand W does as much damage as Syndra Q when Syndra has 500 more AP than Brand. Disclaimer: I know Syndra has more mana at all levels and her Q costs 20 less mana cross the board but as long as you don't wiff abilities as Brand you'll deal more damage than a mage mid as mage support. Also Brand support gets bonus mana regen from Spellthief's and Frostfang.

119 Comments

webstar110829 votes

Brand mid gets destroyed by some other mages and the AD mids are pretty good against him too. Brand support is a different story though

Death by Glamour16 votes

Tbf the vast majority of ap mids get destroyed by ad mids, upcomming talon buffs are just going to add to the misery.

webstar11082 votes

Fizz destroys zed Kayle destroys zed Malz beats talon Annie beats zed Malz destroys zed Ahri beats talon Veigar destroys talon

Arakadia12 votes

Kayle literally isn't played mid.

And every one of those champions has bad, outdated design save for maybe Veigar and Ahri.

webstar11083 votes

Fizz is not. Malz is not. The rest could just be picked as counters. They don't have to be played all the time. Kayle has a very high winrate because of this. She counters some champs very hard. (Urgot, Zed, Karth, etc)

Arakadia6 votes

Fizz is bad design.

Malzahar is very bad design.

Counters do not justify a champion dumpstering the rest of the class.

webstar11082 votes

You clearly know nothing if you think Fizz and Malz are bad champs LOL CY@

ninjaroxas6 votes

Bad design =/= bad champs

webstar11081 votes

"bad design" no. TEEMO is a bad design. Tryn. Garen. Yi. Things that are not good are bad designs. If a champ was not designed well they'd be unplayable in Pro.

ninjaroxas1 votes

So every champ that isn't good right now is badly designed?

webstar11081 votes

You could say that. Yes. The new champs are have better designs and are ALL good. The oldest champs are not as good on avg and have worse designs. That is why the old champs that are not good get reworks. New Camille Xayah Rakan Kaisa Kayn Ornn Zoe ALL GOOD

Old Teemo Garen Irelia Fiddlesticks Taric Udyr just to name a few. You remember how bad taric was before they fixed him? Irelia was a bad design until recently.

See what i mean?

Badnik963 votes

zoe is good design

you have to be baiting

Reaper Claws2 votes

Finally some talon buffs.

Death by Glamour13 votes

You could also argue that he should have far lower base ability damage and scalings because of the amount of aoe damage he can dish out.

Ive never understood why a champion with that much potential aoe damage ahould be avle to kill someone in one rotation

Ok sure but why13 votes

Most mages need to use their stun to LAND their high-damage ability

Brand only uses his stun to amplify it

SooFr0sty3 votes

Except he has to land an ability to use his stun.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

You mean his point and click E?

Pokemonred2006 votes

Brand's E range is shorter than Caitlyn's auto range (625 to 650). Against a lot of mages, being that close AND immobile is a death sentence.

webstar11082 votes

He still has to not be behind minions lol there is easy counterplay

Khristophoros5 votes

Pillar of Flame is one of the easiest abilities to dodge.

Brand is terrible in midlane because he loses almost every lane matchup. Against other mages he has weaker waveclear and more outplayable abilities. Against assassins he has trouble landing anything due to their mobility and outplay mechanics. His waveclear being weak for a mage makes it hard for him to pressure assassins.

He is strong as support because his damage scales without items. That is the only thing he has going for him.

Arakadia11 votes

Brands w would be easier to dodge if you weren't forced in between a rock and a hard place.

Either you take the W, chunking you and setting you up, or you walk walk towards him as most brands place W behind/on you. If you walk towards them, they get an easy E>Q and potentially still hit the W.

Resolution2 votes

{quoted}

Either you take the W, chunking you and setting you up, or you walk walk towards him as most brands place W behind/on you.

Lux has a quicker activating and longer range version of Brands W. Lux does that exact same thing but safer?

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Lux's E also doesn't set up a stun...Also costs way more mana, on a champion that doesn't get RoA or Archangel's.

Khristophoros3 votes

{quoted}

Lux's E also doesn't set up a stun...Also costs way more mana, on a champion that doesn't get RoA or Archangel's.

Her root doesn't need to be "set up". she just has to hit it.

Brand has to hit an ability first and then hit a skillshot. lmfao

Arakadia2 votes

As a result her E is weaker and holds back her kit.

One bad design doesn't justify another.

Supreme Senpai696 votes

Just so people know, 1st buy boots against Brand makes your life way easier. For that time between you having boots and him not having boots you can dodge everything. Probably more effective than an MR rush

Not saying this makes him balanced or whatever. (Not syaing he's broken or anything either.) Just genuine advice I've learned the hard way after facing many Brands

Arakadia3 votes

+1 for the helpful post.

webstar11082 votes

It's funny because all the people whining about Brand being op are not mid mains and are under lvl 50.

Khristophoros3 votes

Holy fuck boards is full of idiots.

Cosmic Rebellion5 votes

again another low elo kid that got destroyed by a brand, and suddenly complaining that is to op and need a nerf. He is very standard, yes he has very good damage and yes he's poke is annoying but he's damage is fine, you simply just need to dodge he abilities then you wont die plus brand is quite squishy and is easy killed mid and support.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

I'd like to see something more than the authority fallacy, and "just dodge".

MalrothDragonia1 votes

Brand is a mid-range mage, if you're in range of his W you can trade back at him. He if you can bait out a brand's spells, especially if he's being agressive, he'll oom and you can all in him, or he has to back, so you can get ahead that way.

Also, his cd's early are pretty significant, especially compared to Syndra as posted in this thread. Syndra has all the tools she needs to beat brand, longer range, shorter cd's, and a smaller burst window. Not to mention a long range initiation for ganks.

Also, since most people walk away to try and avoid poke, I'd try going in every time you get close, more often than not he'll miss, and you'll be in position to punish, especially if you have an engage support.

There are also definitely comp considerations, sustain champs into brand (soraka, janna, lulu, taric, nami) all do really well in supp. In mid, you want to outrange him, or wait until he uses W to waveclear then try and poke him out.

TLDR: Learn the champ's weaknesses, and play to them. His damage isn't the issue, it really is a matter of familiarity with the champion and the ways to combat his play pattern.

Danjeng4 votes

Brand should have his base damage lowered, and his scalings increased to move him from a support to an actual mage mid. Currently playing Brand mid feels unrewarding compared to support Brand who does nearly the same damage with less gold.

Attticus Finch3 votes

Increasing his scalings would do nothing to fix solo lane Brand. Brand's problems solo lane are that he has very poor farming abilities and trading abilities for a mage.

Decreasing his base damages and increasing his scalings would just make him garbage everywhere.

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

Actually his Q and E base damage is trash, but his W and passive’s are too high

Carnicore3 votes

The only skillshot is his Q which pretty much guarantees a kill if he lands it. I've tried shoving, freezing and letting the wave crash under turret, I've tried short trades and long trades, I cannot win lane against him.

Wait... you're complaining about Brand mid? lol

Crispy0Snake1 votes

I made the post when I wanted to play a game of Syndra mid, just a normal game, and Brand was picked on the enemy team clearly for mid so I just thought fk that bc I just go 0 10 0 vs Brand mid, I just can't fathom him if I'm honest. I find playing mid very different to support but I've played support for so long that I'm just better at it.

However, I am a support main, and I experience the same problem with his base damage there, regardless of the wave managent and length of trades too. I ban him in every single game I play support because it seems like every time when he's the enemy support he gets one kill after first buy and second buy he gets 1100 gold Sorcerers Shoes and then gets a double kill and the game is over soon after that

Neptunia xoxo3 votes

{quoted}

I made the post when I wanted to play a game of Syndra mid, just a normal game, and Brand was picked on the enemy team clearly for mid so I just thought fk that bc I just go 0 10 0 vs Brand mid, I just can't fathom him if I'm honest. I find playing mid very different to support but I've played support for so long that I'm just better at it.

However, I am a support main, and I experience the same problem with his base damage there, regardless of the wave managent and length of trades too. I ban him in every single game I play support because it seems like every time when he's the enemy support he gets one kill after first buy and second buy he gets 1100 gold Sorcerers Shoes and then gets a double kill and the game is over soon after that

Syndra counters Brand due to her range on her spells and her ulti is point and click that does not need minions or anything like that to bounce while Brand needs bounces on his ult. Honestly from reading this entire thread and you talking about playing against him I just feel like you never dodge any skillshots and you are just bad at playing around him like not being stacked on your teammates when he ults and such.

Crispy0Snake1 votes

I'm terrible at mid to be fair, I should have focused the post on support

Honestly from reading this entire thread and you talking about playing against him I just feel like you never dodge any skillshots

I do dodge a fair few skillshots, but at the same time people hit skillshots every game, you could say Nidalee's javelin is easy to dodge but a good Nidalee player will hit a lot of javelins every game. My point is saying "Brands W is easy to dodge" is wrong because a good brand will hit W's all the time regardless of how easy people think it is to dodge

You are just bad at playing around him like not being stacked on your teammates when he ults and such.

My biggest fault is not watching his zone close enough in lane, too many times he drifts close enough to EW for a ton of early damage

If brand ults and the team is bunched up I'm often the one take it and run out of range for it to bounce again

Neptunia xoxo2 votes

{quoted}

I'm terrible at mid to be fair, I should have focused the post on support

I do dodge a fair few skillshots, but at the same time people hit skillshots every game, you could say Nidalee's javelin is easy to dodge but a good Nidalee player will hit a lot of javelins every game. My point is saying "Brands W is easy to dodge" is wrong because a good brand will hit W's all the time regardless of how easy people think it is to dodge

My biggest fault is not watching his zone close enough in lane, too many times he drifts close enough to EW for a ton of early damage

If brand ults and the team is bunched up I'm often the one take it and run out of range for it to bounce again

Wow it's almost like a mage landing skillshots will do... damage? wow never thought of that. The problem with Brand is he has to use his W to POKE YOU in lane instead of using it to attempt to push you in lane which means don't keep standing next to minions when you go for last hit and he will have a very hard time dealing with most champions in either mid or bot. Brand has to use 2 abilities and sometimes 3 just to keep a wave from pushing into his tower which means he is going to run oom before any other mage will and this will make him vulnerable to poke aswell.

To make it easier to dodge Brands W you try to poke if you see him using his W to harass you while you try to last hit so this makes him think twice when he tries to poke you and since his W is normally same range or less range then a lot of mages pokes hes easy to trade back or to outrange him if you see him pushing up to poke you. You also need to keep moving instead of just trying to stay still which I see a lot of low elo players do when I smurf and play Brand but when I vs Brand I dodge nearly 80% of his W's in lane and the ones he lands or if i'm greedy when CSing or i'm in an all in and i'm in a spell animation.

Fear the Kayn3 votes

Jesus why do people complain about Brand so fucking much. He's a support, he should have high base damages. His role is to literally shit on enchanter/safe adc lanes. He should be able to do that. And if he gets nerfed, then Velkoz will become the 'kill lane' support. And if he gets nerfed someone else will take his place

Crispy0Snake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuRVNY,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-04-18T04:37:29.687+0000)

His role is to literally shit on enchanter/safe adc lanes.

No he isn't. He's a poke support, which is something enchanters should be amazing against, it's just that they can't because his base damage is too high (Enchanters lose hard to all in lanes which is why Soraka will run Cleanse vs Thresh). I would rather face 1,000 Vel'Koz supports than one Brand support in this current patch

Neptunia xoxo4 votes

{quoted}

No he isn't. He's a poke support, which is something enchanters should be amazing against, it's just that they can't because his base damage is too high (Enchanters lose hard to all in lanes which is why Soraka will run Cleanse vs Thresh). I would rather face 1,000 Vel'Koz supports than one Brand support in this current patch

No Soraka will ever run cleanse lmao even vs Thresh. Actually Brand gets countered by a lot of Enchanters and Tank supports due to being out sustained or getting caught. Leona Alistar Braum ect are Tank supports that can easily destroy Brand. For Enchanters Nami Janna Lulu Soraka Morgana ect can make laning easy since they can just shield or heal through Brands poke and for Morgana she actually can push Brand and his ADC into tower due to her W and while being able to spell shield his stun or poke. Brand is not an issue atm especially when you rarely see him as support or mid in masters/challenger or LCS. Hes an immobile burst mage that relies heavily on landing his stun to either stay alive or peel or to do damage so missing his stun a lot of times will make him useless and an easy target to kill.

ifishbro33 votes

YOU JUST SAID YOU PLAY RYZE!!!!!!!!!!!

Brand is definitely not the problem mate.....

MorgManBasher2 votes

You are only complaining about brand because he's more played than the other AP supports. Brand isn't even a top tier support and suffers a lot the higher in ELO you go.

Most people do NOT want a brand support once you hit diamond, they want an ardent support. He's just not that good and he's a TERRIBLE midlaner.

xelaker2 votes

Syndra Q: 50 / 95 / 140 / 185 / 230 (+ 65% AP)

Brand W: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) (Non empowered. Also this is a much larger AOE ability and will add a stack of his passive to a target)

at 600 ap syndra Q is doing more damage with a lower cd, is still aoe, and adds damage to her ult

Dehydration2 votes

I just have to ask why is everybody comparing syndras stats to every other mage in the game?

Meep Man2 votes

His W is impossible to dodge? And are you comparing Brand's W to Syndra's Q, a spell with about half the cool down? I've dodged many a Brand Ws. There is more to dodging than just beginning to move out of the AoE when you see it appear.

VelvetCrotch1 votes

agreed. brand has burst, utility and aoe. the only thing he doesnt have his mobility much cc. his dmg is - especially for early game - too high.

and i like brand so dont play that card.

Arakadia4 votes

The only utility he has is a conditional stun that must be aimed.

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