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For fuck sake make up your mind about ADCS

D357R0Y3R··64 votes·15,264 views

they're still picked in pro and cover half of the picks bot lane

"but this game is not balanced around pro"

they have between 49% and 51% win rate which is VERY GOOD in regular play

"but tristana has 45% win rate"

so a single champion makes the entire class terrible? look at fucking tanks who have a single tank viable right now. half of the marksmen class, if not more is viable right now just admit that you want the 18 of them to totally rule bot lane once again

92 Comments

Hayaishi41 votes

"So a single champion makes the class terrible?"

Funny. When it was only Trist and Twitch dominating bot lane it was "ADC ARE BROKEN BEYOND BELIEF" And now when most of them are a bad they are still too good? No thanks.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Happens all the time with every class when more than one member is too strong.

GayFluffyUnicorn11 votes

Only twitch and trist? Xayah and cait have been dominating for longer. Also kog maw and varus. Basically every single crit marksmen was more than viable. Some better than others as usual.

Poop Jelly3 votes

Out of context.

The guy said the time when only Twitch & Tristana were good, which at that point, literally only Twitch and Tristana were dominating, people said 'OP broken beyond belief'. You're grouping those as if at one point all of them were 'broken beyond belief'

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

That's simply not true. Xayah has been pretty much meta since her release in both pro and pleb play.

BestPudgeNA15 votes

{quoted}

"So a single champion makes the class terrible?"

Funny. When it was only Trist and Twitch dominating bot lane it was "ADC ARE BROKEN BEYOND BELIEF" And now when most of them are a bad they are still too good? No thanks.

I'll take things that never happened for 500 Alex.

ninjaroxas2 votes

Because the rest of the adcs, for the most part, were still very good

Hemulen Magi17 votes

I agree with you, man. Marksmen are still dominating bot lane with just a few alternative options being potentially viable. Their competition may not even have enough of an edge to be competitive enough to stay viable in bot lane once marksmen and support players learn to deal with them too.

Elohaven9 votes

This post is so hypocritically subjective - it hurts.

Proxy3457 votes

Who needs ADCs when theres a fed Pyke oneshotting everyone? lol

Astutely5 votes

(I mained Tristana and Ashe in season 5 and 6. I wasn't even here when she had a ridiculous win rate, and now both of them seem unviable.)

Ashe is just hard to blind pick and her ult is easily dodge-able by most dash/assassin champions. The meta might just not fit her. Tristana was a bit over nerfed, and they've done nothing to fix her until maybe this next patch. Kaisa and Ezreal were very good, but hit Hard by the last hotfixes and patch. They're playable. (AP Kai'Sa is playable) Kalista is still in the gutter... (Edit: That might just be how difficult she is) Sivir isn't doing very well... Vayne and Xayah are struggling, but I'd say they're playable. Twitch and Jinx seem to be on and off, sometimes they do well. Probably close to being balanced. Edit: Caitlyn is struggling.

If you look at this link: https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/adc/by-winrate, 12 Marksmen are below a 50% winrate.

All ADCs were not hit. Clearly MF, Lucian, and Draven... are doing well in this meta.

Luxana Crowngard3 votes

Tfw Ryze is in Kallista's tier for ADC.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

Cait must struggle or the diversity gets shit on, nobody except cait mains cares about cait sucking Ashe is totally viable, she has 49% win rate and as an Ashe main she is really good in this meta were supports are dominating mid lane , she also gets the strongest powerspike with bork next to lucian

you said 12 marksmen are below 50% win rate, but 49% win rate is VERY FINE that's what pisses me off on the boards

i've played lucian for a full year and he never had more than 50% win rate and i kept successing and successing, except when he had 42% win rate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/grid/

now let's see: sivir 49% win rate vayne 48.5% win rate Kai'sa 49% win rate Kalista was always in the gutter Ezreal 47% win rate but has 23% pick rate

Nevrankroaton4 votes

You totally don't seem biased, which make your topic surely something valuable to read.

ADC main that are challenger, like Wakz, explained that except Lucian and Kaisa, ADC are too weak atm for botlane in general. Of course they can still be pick, I am not saying ADC are unplayable but they are far too weak and scale to slow to be safe to pick. It is a problem of transition, it is as simple as that.

I can assure you that you will not see ADC talking about their late game being weak or that cait don't push and can have lane dominance over other ADC. But the transition is bad for many of them, it would have been way simple to make the crit dmg formula change with lvl scaling so rushing crit doesn't give crazy random damage output.

Also atm:

Corky 46% winrate Caitlyn 46% winrate Varus 47% winrate (which is insane actually. as he isn't supposed to be hit like that by the meta and has the new ER..) Trist 46%

Every ADC crit that has a winrate that didn't decline are ones with utilities (ashe/cait) or that can use BORTK well (Twitch) or that has other build.

I rather have the dmg of stattik/rapidfire decreased/scaling with crit chance to nerf their powerspike and lower their price so crit ADC transition easier mid game but don't deal absurd damage mid game like they did before.

D357R0Y3R5 votes

{quoted}

ADC main that are challenger, like Wakz, explained that except Lucian and Kaisa, ADC are too weak atm for botlane in general. Of course they can still be pick, I am not saying ADC are unplayable but they are far too weak and scale to slow to be safe to pick.

And Doublelift who's infinitly better said that more than half of marksmen are fine and the others are not fine that's perfectly fair because every single class acts like that in the game you never see a class having all of their picks being meta

It is a problem of transition, it is as simple as that.

I can assure you that you will not see ADC talking about their late game being weak or that cait don't push and can have lane dominance over other ADC.

Also atm:

Caitlyn 46% winrate

And that's fine because just as meddler said if caitlyn was viable she would push everyone out of bot

Varus 47% winrate (which is insane actually. as he isn't supposed to be hit like that by the meta and has the new ER..)

Varus always had a low win rate because of how people can't make use of his immobile kit outside of high elo and he's still picked in high elo or lcs because of how busted guinsoo is

Trist 46% i already knew that

corki

he was already garbage before 8.11 just like kalista

Nevrankroaton4 votes

So you have no real answer to me then.

I picked the exact same source as you for these stats, which mean Varus is at this winrate at high elo.

Corki is bad --> "He was bad before" --> Not for the same reason and still an issue since he lost his 2nd item powerspike.

Caitlyn --> Maybe it mean that something need to be made to make her healthier and better? People would throw a tantrum if it was a mage/bruiser.

And half a class being not good isn't a good thing, everyone should be viable. You would never see me say to a weak champion main "Well others are good so it is okay", the board FLIP TABLE everytime a weak champ isn't considered. Bruisers were whining half of their class wasn't viable/good enough.

You don't adress the actual problem, if anything, you are asking for something that people complain about. Which is showing under the mat the problems since there is some good stuff, until it explode later.

Remember we are not talking about wanting a whole class being meta. I would never say ADC were fine in the past months/years. We are talking about something far worse, which is bad itemisation which invalidate a way of playing which make characters reliant to that useless.

And if they buff said characters in other way, it will either make them busted on this buff OR will not help OR (and it is worse), if the item do get buff/changed, could then make them overbearing.

My problem is that it create a mess that could snowball later, I rather truly tone down crits as dmg input mid game and the damage spike of the stattik items so ADC can still feel more fluid in buying them.

Keep IE the same, lower the stattik item stat, maybe lower zeal back at 1200 and lower its stat. IDK, I just feel it is too messy.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

So you have no real answer to me then.

I picked the exact same source as you for these stats, which mean Varus is at this winrate at high elo.

Corki is bad --> "He was bad before" --> Not for the same reason and still an issue since he lost his 2nd item powerspike.

Caitlyn --> Maybe it mean that something need to be made to make her healthier and better? People would throw a tantrum if it was a mage/bruiser.

And half a class being not good isn't a good thing, everyone should be viable. You would never see me say to a weak champion main "Well others are good so it is okay", the board FLIP TABLE everytime a weak champ isn't considered. Bruisers were whining half of their class wasn't viable/good enough.

You don't adress the actual problem, if anything, you are asking for something that people complain about. Which is showing under the mat the problems since there is some good stuff, until it explode later.

Remember we are not talking about wanting a whole class being meta. I would never say ADC were fine in the past months/years. We are talking about something far worse, which is bad itemisation which invalidate a way of playing which make characters reliant to that useless.

And if they buff said characters in other way, it will either make them busted on this buff OR will not help OR (and it is worse), if the item do get buff/changed, could then make them overbearing.

My problem is that it create a mess that could snowball later, I rather truly tone down crits as dmg input mid game and the damage spike of the stattik items so ADC can still feel more fluid in buying them.

Keep IE the same, lower the stattik item stat, maybe lower zeal back at 1200 and lower its stat. IDK, I just feel it is too messy.

corki has been a mid laner since his rework in season 6. his winrate is close to 50%.

varus still scales into a monster when he gets the chance.

we need snowball to be reduced and game times to be increased slightly, not marksmen buffs in any shape or form. they shouldnt even touch the champions or their items before they havent fixed general game pacing issues.

its not really possible to gauge marksmen power, until games are on average long enough for them to regularly power spike.

buffing them now, and THEN reducing game snowball and increase game times is exactly what happened in season 7. in case youre not aware, but this whole "adc2k17" meme was generated under the exact same circumstances of marksmen not being able to scale because games were too short and snowballed out of control. because riot introduced a bunch of global snowball mechanics, just like they did with the previous patches.

they just reduced turret health, increased turret bounty, buffed rift herald, nerfed the shit out of barons damage while they not too long ago buffed baron empowered minions. all of these changes cause games to snowball to hell, to a point where average game times are 23 (high mmr) to 27 (low mmr) minutes.

the situation in season 7 was exactly the same, and i spoke out against marksmen buffs back then aswell, for exactly the same reasons. guess what happened.

back then, they reacted with knee jerk buffs to marksmen too, then scaled back the snowball, then buffed crit items again. and we ended up in a year of bot lane coin flip meta, in which adc power spiked so fast and hard, that only the winning marksmen mattered in games.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

? It's more than half of the bruiser class that is basically shit. Irelia, camille are the only two good ones. Don't give me that shit and compare ADC pampering to what bruisers and toplaners have to go through. Reducing death timers is another hard nerf to toplane. Just casually thrown in another change that fucks toplane.

Elohaven2 votes

It's more than half of the bruiser class that is basically shit.

What about Jax? Darius? Aatrox? Xin Zhao? Riven? Singed? Gangplank? Renekton? Mundo was recently broken until 2 patches ago and still is good.

"Half of the bruiser class is shit"

I think not.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

okay you throw a lot of different champs in there. GP is not a bruiser. Singed is not a bruiser he honestly doesn't have any class at all. Mundo is an abomination and has no clear class either. Classified as juggernaut but he is basically just a tank/disruptor. Jax is shit. Darius? Good in lane shit after that. Renekton functional in lane shit after that. Xin zhao yup is a good jungler right now but when he referred to "bruiser mains whining" that was toplaners not junglers. So that doesn't count as well. Riven? Haven't seen a riven in ever. She's basically balanced right now but not "good" as in: can actually carry a game like camille and Irelia. Aatrox i don't even know why people start picking him up recently but okay let's count him. 3 of 40 champs are good. I'd say thats an insane quota.

Edit: Since i misswrote, kled is kinda okay right now too if you manage to snowball. So 4 of 40 champs that are playable. Great.

Elohaven2 votes

Jax with a 50% winrate a 7% pickrate is shit?

Darius 49% winrate and 15% pickrate with a 51%+ winrate scaling higher as you increase in elo.

I can give you Riven.

Xin Zhao - you were complaining about bruisers. Don't dismiss them just for your argument.

I can give you Singed too since he goes juggernaut usually.

GP is a bruiser. He is literally what a bruiser is defined as.

Yorick is doing pretty well.

Urgot and Wukong have positive winrates despite their low pickrate.

Irelia is actually getting a lower winrate but still more viable than ADCs.

Renekton is just like Darius right now.

Illaoi has a 50%+ winrate and 5% pickrate.

And let's not forget toplane also consists of tanks and juggernauts which were excluded here. Tanks are actually getting shit on. So don't tell me that only a select few bruisers can be used. Much more are viable than ADCs right now.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

OP you are stating something that is kinda strange here.

There have been multiple points where 1--3 marksmen were the only marksmen viable/good and the class was considered insanely OP, or at least their existence meant that marksmen in general werent bad since said picks were playable......even if all the other marksmen had less than 2% playrate.

"ADCin2k17 lul was a meme, marksmen were still played botlane" - "diversity lover"

Then by the same standard arent Leona, alistar and mundo a representation of tanks being viable? All of them are played and doing well......and even if mundo isnt a tank he is tankier than some tanks anyhow.

Lets face it, there are only 3 marksmen with a high pick and winrate balance, being lucian, kai sa and Ezreal.......possibly MF as well.

But all the traditional marksmen are already out of the game, Ashe, cait, kog, varus and trist, what gets you through botlane as a ranged AD now is the ability to bully melee early and size lane dominance.

Biggest losers right now are those like myself who mained marksmen like Ashe x)

But unlike some hardcore mains i myself happen to play a large number of champs so i get around but i still feel it when i do end up playing the lane x)

Batpool Uchiha1 votes

{quoted}

OP you are stating something that is kinda strange here.

There have been multiple points where 1--3 marksmen were the only marksmen viable/good and the class was considered insanely OP, or at least their existence meant that marksmen in general werent bad since said picks were playable......even if all the other marksmen had less than 2% playrate.

have you heard the saying better bot lane wins. i remember when you couldent get near an adc because they would kill you with 2 auto attacks. and remember when jg camped bot and didnt help mid or top yea it applied to almost every adc except mf or ezreal who barely used crit.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Batpool Uchiha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8LEJhe7,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2018-06-18T22:47:34.147+0000)

have you heard the saying better bot lane wins. i remember when you couldent get near an adc because they would kill you with 2 auto attacks. and remember when jg camped bot and didnt help mid or top yea it applied to almost every adc except mf or ezreal who barely used crit.

2 auto attacks......this was when static shiv got that extremely ridiculous buff wasnt it? The one where they bumped its crit damage to to 400 or something, this was admittedly truly .,.,,,,,,outright stupid on several levels.

I myself wrote on that but it took pro games to show just how stupid it really was x)

But even then there was only like......Trist, Cait and draven if i recall, they´d snowball like hell early and become near unstoppable.

Them and corki too i think, but he went midlane because he is better at solo lanes.

Only reason it flew under the radar should have been that the ardent+tank meta happened shortly after resulting in crit being left behind for a while.........great cancer hides the smaller ones?

But that thing ended like......6 patches ago thankfully, so no use thinking of it now, we´ve gotten worse issues since then.....both inside and outside botlane.

Daddy Ants3 votes

My biggest concern is as follows -

Why are things like this going unnoticed?

https://gyazo.com/8b7e48c23b846221f0596bee9045ba90

Why hasn't she been nerfed or being considered for nerfs?

54.4% WIN RATE with a 10.1% Pick Rate is disgusting.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

lucian at 52% winrate......30% pickrate.

remakoro3 votes

Make up your mind about AC/DCs

Troll for Trump2 votes

They need to get used to not being the only lategame carries in the game anymore. That being said, Irelia and Camille aren't supposed to be lategame carries either.

Good divers: Irelia, Camille, Singed, Aatrox (apparantly a diver), Renekton, Kled, Xin, Lee Good tanks: Ali, Taric,Leo, Braum.

There are no good jg or solo lane tanks.

Kaìju11 votes

The issue is that what does Vayne do besides outscale? What does Kog do besides outscale? If you make a champion who's entire kit is designed to kill and carry and you make them not able to clearly carry better than anyone else, there isn't a real reason to pick them.

Disulfiram6 votes

Kog and vayne were never designed to carry - they were defined as "hypercarry", meaning that (in theory) they are dead weights on the team until lategame, but if the game gets there then they are almost an auto-win for their team.

Them being able to "carry" without the game hitting that stage was actually a sign of a huge problem with the adc class.

GripaAviara4 votes

Sure, then zed comes, and insta kills vayne.

DEFEAT

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

*Then zed comes, vayne gets half her hp as shield, goes invisible, condemns him away and kills him in three autos.

no to toxic2 votes

[deleted]

Sp33d Zer03 votes

NO! My assassin got with a screen distance of an adc in a 1v4! It should be able to one shot and get away for healthy gameplay!

Elohaven1 votes

As a Vayne main, let me tell you killing a Zed in 3 autos isn't possible anymore. Heck - any ADC can't do that with crit anymore. Let's not forget condemn requires Zed to fuck up or you to be in a walled area which is also at your disadvantage with his shadows.

And since when did Vayne get half her HP as a shield? Pretty sure she never did and they also just nerfed shield supports.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

You don't remember the 1k Janna shields?!

I don't either to be fair. Must have been before season 2.

Automated Riven1 votes

The 1k karma shields are real (I think still currently)

But before the nerf Janna had 650-700 ho shields.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I mean if you wanna count the total sum of the aoe. Otherwise her R E is 210+60% ap which means you need 1300 ability power (give or take based off of healing shielding power purchased)

Automated Riven1 votes

...

Her E has a base of 170 +50% ap Then RE adds an additional 210 +60% ap. Which means she has a total of 390 +110% ap. Meaning she needs and additional 550 ap or so to make it 1000 hp. Or like 300 ap + aery + 40% shield power.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Then in clearly mistaken because reading it looks like it reads it ups it from 170 + 50% to 210 + 60%, not adding 210 + 60%

Automated Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8LEJhe7,comment-id=00030000000000010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T20:27:30.538+0000)

Then in clearly mistaken because reading it looks like it reads it ups it from 170 + 50% to 210 + 60%, not adding 210 + 60%

It states very specifically that the 210+%60 is bonus shielding. I don't know how you intend to explain that as anything but additional shield.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I'm reading it on mobile where the wiki is super poorly optimised and I can't even read parts of her kit such as her Q

Automated Riven1 votes

Ahh, same tho. But I have the advantage of havinh played her a bunch.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Yea i have the luxury of loving her as a support but not playing her

[sg-lulu]

mtothe6thpower1 votes

It only shields for 30% of the extra to each allied champ. So it's not 210 * 60% per champs, it's 63 + 18% of her AP added, so it comes out to a total of 233 + 68% of AP. So she'd need something like 820 AP and 40% heal and shield power for it to come out over 1k per champ.

Automated Riven1 votes

Not the point. He was refuring to adding up each champion together to get 1k total. Not 1k on each champion.

mtothe6thpower1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8LEJhe7,comment-id=000300000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T19:17:13.586+0000)

I mean if you wanna count the total sum of the aoe. Otherwise her R E is 210+60% ap which means you need 1300 ability power (give or take based off of healing shielding power purchased)

I don't think he was refering to that, since he explicitly said "If you wanna count the sum total of the AoE" to mean get over 1k shield. So, by context clues I'm guessing he means by champion, therefore, it is the point.

Automated Riven1 votes

Sum, stands for total in this context. Not summoner. He was arguing that you could not get 1k worth of shields out of karma unless you counted the shield on each indevidual champion collectively. This was in opposition to my postulation that karma could get 1000 hp shields on the PRIMARY target. Thus the disagreement.

This is very obvious if you ready the entire thread, including the responses that I gave and be replied with.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I mean if you wanna count the total sum of the aoe.

The shield aoe encompassing the target and teammates surrounding

Otherwise her R E is 210+60% ap

The (incorrectly stated due to key word bonus) idea of the shield on a single target.

Ryrynounet1 votes

*Then zed comes, vayne gets half her hp as shield, goes invisible, condemns him away and kills him in three autos VICTORY

FIFY ;)

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