Defense is mathematically inferior to damage

Koechophe··102 votes·22,110 views

(Math incoming, TL;DR at the bottom) For this example, we're going to just be looking at armor/ad, but the principles can apply to mr as well.

The math The gold value of armor is 20g per 1 point, and health is 2.6g per one point. Attack damage is 30g per 1 point. It sounds like the defensive stats should be more efficient, right?

Here's the problem. High-end armor items vs high end AD items, AD gets a huge kick to efficiency that armor doesn't have. Let's look at some of the usual suspects Bloodthirster: 80 AD, 20% Lifesteal, 3500 gold, 101% gold efficient w/o passive Ravenous Hydra: 80 AD, 12% lifesteal, 100% hp regen, 101% gold efficient without its passives Rageblade: 25 AD, 25 AP, 25% attack speed, 3300 gold. 73% gold efficient without passive, jumps to 125% gold efficiency at 6 stacks, further increased by 17% for every 100 AD and 11% for every 100 AP. Youmuu's ghostblade: 2900 gold, 55 AD, 10% cdr. 90% gold efficient without passive/active, 106% gold efficient while out of combat and 133% gold efficient while using active.

Now compare with high-end armor/hp items. Sunfire cape: 2900 gold, 60 armor, 425 hp. 80% gold efficient without passive. Randuin's omen: 2900 gold, 400 hp, 60 armor. 78% gold efficient without its passive or active. Thornmail: 2900 gold, 80 armor, 250 hp. 74.71% gold efficient without passives

The numbers are clear and easy to understand. Damage is far, far more gold efficient, and far more slot efficient.

But wait, there's more

  1. Running conqueror can reduce the gold efficiency of all armor/mr items by a flat 20% 2)Hp burn drastically reduces the efficiency of building any form of hp 3)There's more true damage in the game now than there's ever been before 4)Damage helps secure objectives far more effectively than defense does 5)Damage items have actives which are far more effective than defensive items 6)Armor shred is more popular than ever, as well as armor pen 7)Damage users can itemize damage and increase their effectivity against everyone. Tanks have to itemize specifically armor or MR to increase their effectivity against only one or the other.

TL;Dr Defensive items are simply inferior to offensive items at the moment. This disbalance needs to be fixed.

182 Comments

Critmaster Garen28 votes

what bothers me more, is that conqueror and infinity edge fuck with champion kit inherent defenses.

some champions like Garen Warwick Alistar Irelia etc. really rely on their % damage reduction as outplay tools.

riot is basically "players are too stupid to appreciate or understand any other damage amp, so were making everything true damage."

taking 1500 true damage from an adc who isnt even vayne feels like shit. i think one thing they should probably do is make the true damage conversions not stackable.

D357R0Y3R8 votes

Yea garen is so fucked by conqueror and IE

https://i.gyazo.com/5f5fe078da31c70792937046f4ff0fce.png

chipndip124 votes

Garen mains are like Sona mains: They complain because their champ feels bad, even when they're doing fine in solo queue. Then if you ask them if they want a rework, they say "No, just some TwEAks."

i kick routers3 votes

[deleted]

chipndip12 votes

Given his current state, what are you willing to give up, power wise, for that?

Hemulen Magi2 votes

Damage. Change true damage vs villains to physical damage in exchange for other strengths. Garen can take conqueror for true damage and people generally agree there is too much true damage in the game right now anyways. Garen can also bring item 3071 to shred armor.

chipndip11 votes

...change his villain passive...to physical damage?

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Yeah. Ultimate passive vs villain: 1% enemy max hp as true damage -> 1.5% enemy max hp as physical damage

Ultimate active: true damage vs villain -> +10% max hp physical damage vs villain

With these changes, Garen will be much worse at shredding armor stacking tanks, roughly equal at dueling other juggernauts (if they stack hp without a lot of armor), and roughly equal or slightly worse at fighting squishies (who can usually kite/avoid him anyways) Since he'll be weaker in general, he can get new strengths like minion execution on his E so that he doesn't miss as much CS while waveclearing with it.

Theorex2 votes

That is a bad idea.

Let me math you this.

Lets assume that 1000 hp is the enemies MAX HP, at 100 armor and magic resist.

He deals 10 damage per tick with the 1% true damage. He deals 7.5 damage with the change you came up with.

Once you are at 50 armor, he deals the same damage has he was previously. To give you an idea, SONA naturally gets 84.1 Armor by level 18.

Now just assume that you are against a Darius. Who gets Triforce, Steraks, Deadmans, Ninja Tabis, Spirit Visage, and Cleaver.

(we are doing this at level 18).

Darius has 107 Armor and 2282.2 HP.
Deadmans gives 60 armor and 425 HP. Spirit Visage gives 450 HP and 55 MR. Ninja Tabi gives 20 Armor. Cleaver gives 400 HP Triforce gives 250 HP Steraks gives 450 HP.

So total Armor is 187 Armor + 4257 HP + 108 MR.

Now assume Garen builds Cleaver, Deadmans, Steraks, Ninja Tabis, Spirit Visage, and Sunfire.

The only thing we will be considering is AD and Armor Shred from Cleaver + his skills, that we being affected.

We will assume that Cleaver is max stacked on someone full hp. (Realistically speaking that can't happen without shields and heals)

Garen shreds 24% of Darius 187 Armor with Cleaver >>> 142 Armor. No other form of shred is in his kit.

So now each tick with 1% true damage = 43 damage

With purposed changes = 27 damage.

Do you consider Darius a Tank? Because I consider Darius a bruiser. This is just a negative change. He now would lose to every bruiser. He barely beats/ties them when everything is tied.

Second change, is also really bad. He already deals 40% of missing targets HP, and then also deals 10% max damage. Its counter intuitive. Assuming it goes through.

Lets Use Darius.

4257 HP w/ 108 MR, since his ulti is already magic damage, we will assume you meant magic damage in the change instead of dual damage.

We will do the point where Garen could execute Darius. +/- like 1 or 2% for basic errors.

execute = (426 HP + 40% of missing hp) * 108 MR (reduction)

So real numbers would be (209 + 19.6% of missing HP + 267.5) Post reduction.

So saying that darius is missing 100% of his hp, Garen would deal 1310 magic damage on ulti.

It would require Darius to be at 35% HP for Garen to execute him. Where his ulti would deal 876.5 damage.

To give you an idea, an ADC, Mage, or Jungle can deal that same number of damage off of two skills. At 6 items level 18. (unless they are tank)

Compare it to literally every other execute in the game. It would be worthless.

So no. We shouldn't do that.

TL;DR

Darius vs Garen

E damage w/ villain mark down 37% @ 6 items level 18.

R damage w/ villain mark down 25% @ 6 items level 18. Since Garen can use his ulti at 47% remain HP (True damage)

Not sure if Garen mains would want to lose over 62% damage for a few adjustments. Just on those two skills, and not calculating basic auto attacks either. It would be even lower. :) Just saying. Terrible idea.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

Chipndip1 asked what could be removed in exchange for other strengths. It's a nerf... And it's not 62% of Garen's damage... Garen isn't always or even usually fighting a villain and the villain isn't always a tank or juggernaut at full build. If Garen's win rate dropped too low, he could keep getting more buffs in other areas. The point of the suggestion was to take something away to open up power budget. With over 53% winrate, he can't just get a bunch of straight buffs without sacrificing something real...

FireWolfYT6 votes

Garen main here. We want R to be a guaranteed hit once we cast it. Self-root for 1 second is already annoying enough, but people stepping into brush while casting is horrible.

HeyHeresTre4 votes

Darius main here. I hate you.

saltran12 votes

Now you both kiss

Vekkna3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O4Lc80Pm,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-02T16:13:02.853+0000) taking 1500 true damage from an adc who isnt even vayne feels like shit.

Taking 1500 true damage from a tank mashing his targeted, mid-range R feels worse.

EDIT: Inb4 somebody says the 4500 hp guy with a free warmog's passive, kit resists, tenacity, DR, and 5 tank items "isn't a tank."

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

Taking 1500 true damage from a tank mashing his targeted, mid-range R feels worse.

EDIT: Inb4 somebody says the 4500 hp guy with a free warmog's passive, kit resists, tenacity, DR, and 5 tank items "isn't a tank."

"tank"

no, he isnt a fucking tank. or does he have any form of aoe crowd control, team engage or other forms of noticable peel? i dont think so.

and his ult doesnt deal 1500 damage unless its a stacked chogath, or massive overkill due to the % missing health scaling, which doesnt actually count for anything.

if you garen ult a target on 50 health for 1450 overkill damage, then that ult still just dealt 50 damage.

Ralanr22 votes

Defense is meant to be inferior and get outscaled though.

Warlord Rhinark26 votes

{quoted}

Defense is meant to be inferior and get outscaled though.

Makes me sad.

I don't like being aggresive.

I like just keeping to myself.

I want to be able to set up defensive positions and entrench myself in my own little bunker of defense.

ZackTheWaffleMan9 votes

#me irl

TeCoolMage3 votes

I use my ditto for offense, fite me

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

I use my ditto for offense, fite me

The "D" in "Ditto" is obviously for Defense.

TeCoolMage3 votes

the o in ditto is for offense though, new players use him defensively, but as you get farther in you use him more offensively :^)

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

the o in ditto is for offense though, new players use him defensively, but as you get farther in you use him more offensively :^)

>:(

Ralanr16 votes

I know what you mean. Sadly people hate fighting turtles.

chipndip13 votes

You should play tower defense games...that isn't this one (I totally forgot this is technically tower defense...)

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

You should play tower defense games...that isn't this one (I totally forgot this is technically tower defense...)

Tower defense games are actually some of favourite games.

I can't count how many hours I pooled into Bloons Tower Defense 5.

chipndip12 votes

Back in highschool Bloons was the fucking shit. I used to get so hype when the next one came out and they'd have different types of bloons...and then the fucking blimps were flying in...jeeze, man.

FiddlerOnTheRift5 votes

{quoted}

Defense is meant to be inferior and get outscaled though.

But it doesn't mean it is Gold efficient. I'm sacrificing my ability to deal damage to better defend myself. I'm paying too much for less of what I need while a damage champion gets exactly what they need and more!

shoe65352 votes

{quoted}

But it doesn't mean it is Gold efficient. I'm sacrificing my ability to deal damage to better defend myself. I'm paying too much for less of what I need while a damage champion gets exactly what they need and more!

no you're not, you're getting survivabillity because you have bad ratios and you have utillity. you're pretty much saying everyone who builds full damage or ap is better than tanks.

FiddlerOnTheRift4 votes

{quoted}

no you're not, you're getting survivabillity because you have bad ratios and you have utillity. you're pretty much saying everyone who builds full damage or ap is better than tanks.

A bloodthirster and basic crit items is easy fight with against any of the current armor/magic resist items in the game. Survivability doesn't really exist as much as it did back in the tank meta.

Sasogwa3 votes

{quoted}

Defense is meant to be inferior and get outscaled though.

Gold efficiency is about flat stats. Damage is supposed to outscale via multiplicative scaling, not.. base stat gold efficiency.

Lets have shrex16 votes

"Tank can tank but deal too much damage ?" "Hey Rito balance team what should we do ?" "Idk lol I'm a Yasuo and Yi main" "Ah ik lol i'll give true damage so armor won't be worth building anymore but tanks will still deal damage" "holy shit amazing idea" "leggooooooo boooooooooyzzzz I offer the beers tonight"

and here's s8 in a nutshell

D357R0Y3R12 votes

riot said they don't want offense to be outscaled by defense in like season 3 or 4 if i remember

when they basically nerfed armor on every single armor item

Koechophe7 votes

I'm fine with not outscaled. Can we make the scaling somewhat comparable?

k wìx7 votes

Yea, great post +1! Definitely captured how it feels some games - There are so many times when I'm playing a squishy support champion and I debate if I want to pick up an armor or MR item as we head into mid/late game and more and more it just feels like it's not worth it. All that said:

I'm not 100% convinced that putting them on equal footing would be healthy for the game. My question for you is thus: What would you do to fix the imbalance? What items would you tweak and why?

Would you prefer a meta where buying armor/mr has more value? kinda slow the pace of the game down?

Koechophe2 votes

I would make armor/mr high tier items more expensive and increase the stats on them significantly. I would also give certain items better passives/actives so they're more worth picking up (Like randuins, the "anti crit" item, which is pretty out of date considering the new crit meta is built around crits dealing true damage in part. Makes more sense to move randiun's active to FH and give randuins more solid of an identity).

I would also add a few more defensive options, since currently there isn't much diversity (Riot keeps moving tank items into offensive items instead, see GA and Banshees).

I would also make it so tenacity somewhat affected displacements, so that it's worth something again.

I would revert Thornmail's active to deal a percentage like it used to, rather than a terrible scaling flat amount that's almost completely negligable.

wildfox995 votes

defense is not,tank items are

i mean,some defensive items like item 3155 are insanely effective and some offensive items that also give dfensive stats/passives (ie. item 3046 item 3812 item 3053) make you so tanky when stacked (and against high armor pen they end up being more effective than tanks items)

armor items are fine,we just need to reduce all this true damage and armor pen that makes them useless

Lets have shrex46 votes

Offensive items shouldn't bring more defensive stats than defensive items [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Danjeng8 votes

Imagine if Spear of Shojin was added into the game kek.

Bob the Toastr4 votes

He was going well until the last sentence. He was pointing out that the best defensive items are actually offensive items and that's a problem (i think that's what he was saying). Tank items should be better at defence than death's dance.

Despìca Bìll4 votes

Nice post. The math looks good to me, and it sure measures up with how it feels to play tank vs. damage. Only point I'd disagree with is number 7. Almost everyone in the game does mixed damage of some kind, and they have to prioritize one kind over another. They also have to choose between straight damage and life steal or penetration, as straight damage drops off in a serious way against tanks. And item 3193 is easy access to a huge amount of "fuck yo damage, whatever it is."

Koechophe2 votes

Unless it's true damage lol.

Tbh, even if you deal mixed damge, you rarely have to itemize for it. Hybrid itemization is pretty uncommon, it's mostly just raw Ad or ap (ad building things like crit and AS that further their physical damage. In general, as a damage dealer, you don't need to build ad to be effective against some people and ap to be effective against other people. You build flat AD and you're more effective against everyone. Hope that makes some sense.

ZackTheWaffleMan3 votes

Except against Conqueror Yi

Despìca Bìll13 votes

Lol. God himself can't save you from Conqueror Yi.

3TWarrior2 votes

when the servers catch fire, he sometimes does XD

Despìca Bìll3 votes

Lol. Server bugs as acts of God's mercy...I hadn't thought of it that way. XD

Pæan4 votes

Feel free to correct, but isn't that the point? If defense could fully match offense then the tank would take no damage while also dealing its base damage over and over.

That being said, it's wayyyyyy more skewed than it should be. You've got assassins assassinating tanks barely any slower than a squishy.

We need something between what we have now and the cinderhulk era.

Koechophe6 votes

I'm not advocating that tanks are immune to all damage, but I'm advocating that building defense is just as rewarding as building offense.

specter4243 votes

Except tanks with tank items can win 1v1 against someone with damage items

Koechophe6 votes

If you mean that an illaoi stacking straight armor can beat a quinn stacking straight ad, yes. But the illaoi would win with ad anyway... Melee bruisers have better 1v1 than most other classes, regardless of what they build.

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