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Lets talk about Sheen (Math!)

Hibeki··4 votes·1,559 views

item 3057

The item thats been in the game for the longest time. Considered really good by most people.

Lets talk about this item. Its item 1058 to say that this item gives a big powerspike, but thats what im here to talk about. What's its strength? Its powerspike?

Just looking at the item seems a bit off, an item that provides its own damage and not a stat has a pretty big cooldown usually. item 3145 has a 40 second cooldown, item 3144 has a full 90 second, item 2015 is about once every 10 seconds for pitiful damage. That must mean the damage from this item is a bit low for the low cooldown right?

Not exactly....Sheen is actually the biggest offensive powerspike in the game in lane. Out of almost every item with some exceptions.

On average, champions have 70 Base AD top lane at level 6. 66% of 70 is 46.8~ DPS increase (Attack speed is not calculated, because the item has a longer cooldown than your attack speed does).

To put this in perspective, A champion with an attack speed of .69 and base AD of 71 (No bonus AS or AD) their DPS is 49.

This means you are essentially doubling your auto attack damage, for 1050g. a 46.8 damage per second power spike in lane for 1050g is quite possible one of the biggest powerspikes IN THE GAME.

Lets compare this to one of the biggest powerspikes in the game: Akali + item 3146

Her passive boost from gunblade. (+50% of gunblade AD and 75% of gunblade AP) At an 8 second cooldown, this adds up to 10 dps extra from gunblade. Her Q boost from Gunblade. (Both marks add up to 90%) At 5 second cooldown, this is 14 DPS. Auto Attack DPS increase, Those stats I showed earlier? Those are actually akali's at level 5. So 40 divided by .69 is 27 DPS Gunblade Active (With no other bonus AP) is 5 DPS (200 base + 24 from gunblades own bonus AP divided by 40)

This adds up to 56 damage per second increase.

item 3057 on any character with 70 base AD at this level is 46 DPS, only 9 less than Akali + item 3146

Sheen's powerspike is comparable to the most abused case scenario, the biggest powerspike in the game. And this goes on nearly any character. I think its obvious why the powerspike is so high, the cooldown of this item is virtually non-existant.

Hell, compare this to item 3145, The item grants the same damage at this level, but has a 40 second cooldown.

Can someone explain why Sheen is allowed to stay this way? This 1050g item is the equivalent of buying 70 AD in auto attacks at this stage in the game, and trinity force turns this DPS into something incredibly abusable. The only powerspike in the game that is bigger than this mild requirement one (Any champion with 70 base AD at level 5-6) is one of the most abused powerspike combos in league history

......How?

19 Comments

Hibeki2 votes

I should probably clarify:

This means on almost every character you play top lane, Sheen is a bigger powerspike than literally any other item in the game at level 5-6, apart from a few exceptions.

Hammermancer1 votes

item 3044 is literally core on every single physical damage top laner, and 90% of them opt for item 3071 which makes item 3078 too many wasted stats for them. item 3025 is rare outside of full tanks so I really don't know where this is coming from

Quepha2 votes

You're calculating its damage as if every champion has abilities always off of cooldown and always has resources available to cast those abilities. What actually happens is champions usually get 1 proc in a trade, maybe 2 if they intentionally space it out and extend the trade.

The reality is that Sheen has medium priority. Lichbane users generally don't build it until their first item is fully completed, Triforce users generally build Phage first and are not considered to actually spike until Triforce is fully completed.

Hibeki2 votes

Most top laners have SOME sort of reliable spam to get 4-5 procs off, so for an 8 second fight thats appropriate dps

Quepha2 votes

which sheen users have 5 ability casts in 8 seconds pre-6?

Hibeki1 votes

Nasus Renekton Poppy Yasuo Gnar Fiora Akali Jax etc can all get reliably 4-5

Hammermancer1 votes

Nasus should build sheen and always has Renekton opts for item 3071 every time Poppy might build item 3025 but that's hardly wrong for a tank to build Yasuo does not benefit from sheen items very well, too many wasted stats, expensive af, and he could just build crit for more damage Gnar never ever seen that one, item 3071 means he wont be getting item 3078 and item 3022 means he don't really need item 3025 Fiora is overtuned right now, but item 3078 has always been core on her Akali has always been item 3100 item 3146 and her kit is balanced around that Jax is likely getting a vgu soon, no need to gut one of the most important cornerstone items in the game for like 10-20% of the entire roster because his update didnt come

you've listed 5 legitimate sheen users and 3 people who don't really get that much out of it

k

TwinkiePro2 votes

Let's not forget sheen has an innate 1.5 second cooldown between uses, meaning the absolute most procs you can achieve reliably in 8 seconds is 4-5 as casting a spell is necessary to ready the proc. Most sheen users have some form of delay for their spell cast.

OFC, thats post-6.

Hammermancer1 votes

I actually think sheen is a healthy item, first off its designed for AD casters (Or some mages with lichbane)

you're supposed to rotate your abilities to proc sheen correctly

since most ad champs get their scaling from.. ad then the lack of actual ad on the item is pretty good from a balance standpoint

Hibeki1 votes

You dont even need to be an AD caster, people like Ezreal just abuse is because he can apply on hit effects giving it an extra hundred damage.

If this item was built more strictly so that ONLY ad casters could use it (Assassins would fit the bet better than someone like Nasus), the problem is the people who use it best are NOT the people it was meant for.

Hammermancer1 votes

triforce is meant for champions like Ezreal Jayce Irelia

the issue is that the game has changed over time and Jayce can just stack lethality now and mostly ignore his hammer form if he really wants (Jayce main here confirming that)

Ezreal has no damage before he gets a sheen, he has been balanced around the item and it is core on both his AD and AP builds

Irelia Literally is a walking sheen proc

Nidalee Elise share this

Hibeki1 votes

Yes, thats the problem, the champions that are meant to use this item dont and its abused by people who it clearly isnt meant for. If it had a larger cooldown it would be more burst damage, but its really both burst and sustain

Hammermancer1 votes

No, because its meant for champions who use a lot of abilities to up their damage, the abusive champions should have their rotations nerfed if they build sheen as a "Must have" and in exchange they should ahve some base ad increase to make it more rewarding

Nasus for example could use some nerfs here and there, but also a bit of a base AD buff would be good

by the way are you suggesting that nasus and sheen aren't a match made in heaven?

every single one of the abusers of this item will just move on to crit if they can't use it, you have an almost argument with item 3100 being that its good on basically any ap champ

Hammermancer1 votes

The only champion I can think of that abuses sheen in a way they shouldn't is Vayne on the meme build item 3147 item 3078 item 3087

what you have an issue with isn't item 3057

it's item 3053 rework massively increasing the damage output

Pika3101 votes

To say Sheen is a problem is an understatement. To say all artificial scalings are problems would be far more accurate.

Speaking specifically to Sheen and the Spellblade line, Rito understands the item passive gives a MASSIVE instant powerspike to literally ANYONE that buys it. If you take a look at Spellblade's patch history, you'll notice that it matter-of-factly has received numerous nerfs in the past as a result and many champs who rely on Sheen's power have gotten compensation buffs as well. Honestly speaking, Spellblade is probably the least efficient artificial scaling in the game in spite of still being the strongest in spite of the many nerfs to it, which brings us to another conclusion.

Despite being the strongest artificial scaling in the game, the power stat efficiency on its items have deterred its consistent usage, except by champions who naturally have poor scalings on their own. For many characters, Spellblade is used as a crutch for a number of reasons: Sheen is an early game spike to compensate for a shitty laning phase (hence why Sona is forced to buy it); Triforce is used as a mid-game spike for champions to either snowball or transition into late-game (Corki or Jax in this instance); Iceborn is used for extra CC, probably the most balanced of the Spellblade line; and Lich Bane of course is a crutch for mages with shit scalings that can't rely on standard AP items (once again looking at Sona.)

In my opinion, Runic/Luden's Echo and Gunblade are both far more problematic at this current moment in League than Spellblade is. Luden's Echo provides that same artificial scaling you're looking for, but doesn't come with the adverse drawback of having poor stats like Lich Bane. A similar argument can be said for Gunblade as well and we see this evidenced by its abuse by LeBlanc in today's meta.

Now, although Shyv/Cannon are artificial damage, they're both flat damage. They don't scale with your other stats and although Shyv can crit & Cannon charges your Charge effects faster, their damage still remains consistent aside from their own built-in damage/level "scaling."

#RIPSonaPatch413 #RevertPatch413

Hibeki1 votes

I agree that Ludens and Gunblade are both problematic as well, its just that since its a later stage in the game it has an opportunity to be played around.

Unless you are really fed, buying these items in lane wont feed yourself as much as spellblade will. The instant power of spellblade literally turns the tide of a lane as a rush.

To put in perspective:

I as Tryndamere demolish Nasus in lane. Up to kills, kill him and the jungler.

The instant he buys spellblade i actualy cant fight him. His DPS increase is so significant I cant fight him, while head.

This is why spellblade is a problem. Because its just too massive off a powerspike in lane

Pika3101 votes

Which is all exactly correct and reason for this being Spellblade has a mini-component: Sheen. Just like Hexdrinker, just like Bramble Vest, Sheen is an absurdly low-cost and insanely high-statted item that arguably has the HIGHEST damage spike in the game for its price-point.

Meanwhile, Luden's Echo has a higher winrate than Spellblade, but despite being a stronger item, you don't get that power spike until its complete. Echo runs the risk of sacrificing your strength until completing the item and potentially even losing the game before it can come online. Runic Echoes on the other hand comes online much sooner than Luden's and thusly Rito has had to nerf the item multiple times to avoid another Runeglaive fiasco.

On the other hand, let's not forget the reason for Gunblade's sudden spike in power: Revolver was buffed to ALSO be a mini-component like Sheen is. Difference being, Gunblade gets not 1, but TWO mini-components with artificial damage spikes: Revolver AND Cutlass.

Having said all of this though, all of these items can be bought in conjunction with each other, multiplying the problem further. These items are so powerful, with their artificial numbers, that together they can compensate for even the most unplayable of characters, such as Sona. Which Rito intentionally manipulates as false propaganda to keep these characters in unplayable states, rather than doing what's needed to fix them, like a full revert for example.

#RIPSonaPatch413 #RevertPatch413

Hammermancer1 votes

Ok i'm going to say this, Downvoting everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't make you right, you're still claiming that sheen is spammed across the board as if item 3071 item 3022 isnt way more popular

Hibeki2 votes

I can assure you thats not me /shrug

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