The tanks who aren't Sej/Zac/Mao need to be changed too

The Ecdysiast·Jun 17, 2017·41 votes·2,333 views

Those three were changed to suit the heavy nerfs to defense items across the board, and they're also the least effected by them since they're mainly junglers or supports--- not top laners who need Sunfire as a first item.

But all of the top lane tanks were screwed over by the changes, with no compensation whatsoever.

It's nice that they decided for a change to make a class update that didn't break 10 champions, but it's not cool that they went about this by both nerfing all their items and refusing to change the champions.

Other class updates actually saw item buffs, so nerfing the items for this update with zero compensation doesn't make any sense. They took way too much caution by simultaneously changing very few champions.

72 Comments

THE RlVER KlNGJun 17, 201727 votes

TL;DR if you're a tank and your name isn't Zac or Galio sucks to suck because Riot nerfed tank itemization and buffed ADCs yet again even though that was the exact opposite of what was needed

This is why I fucking hate class updates because no matter whose it is the only winners are ADCs.

RenascentJun 17, 201713 votes

TL;DR if you're a tank and your name isn't Zac or Galio sucks to suck

https://i.gyazo.com/8fc7a859c72d5edcf6d3427d5276491c.png

http://i.imgur.com/4J1kfJS.png

THE RlVER KlNGJun 17, 20175 votes

Wow, one person does well on a character?

Must be good.

RenascentJun 17, 20176 votes

You're going to have to be a bit more clear with the argument you're putting out here. Are you claiming that:

A) No other tank other than Zac and Galio can possibly do well right now, which is the impression that your original comment gave me

B) Tanks overall other than Zac and Galio are not viable, which is the impression I'm getting from your response

AhristocatsJun 18, 20177 votes

it's not once person

take a look at LAXER shieldstar on EUW

Toplane Rammus is beyond decent, and with a thornmail+some armor he becomes an assassin

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 18, 20172 votes

Toplane Rammus is beyond decent

not decent... u mean toxic [zombie-nunu-tears]

WiegrafOfValorJun 17, 20176 votes

You're not even playing ranked.. Also you have a game where the enemy Cait was 20/5 cleaning the floor with your face, you a AR tank with Thornmail and 400+ armor..

So you're wrong, plus the game games you won this week playing Rammus was because you got carried by your ADs, and in your games only you were playing a Tank, most of your matchups were Pantheon or other AD top laners.

RenascentJun 17, 201715 votes

I really don't want to respond to this. You aren't giving me the impression that you'd listen to me. But I'll try; I am curious.

There are indeed ranked games in the pic right there. If you couldn't see them the first time, I don't blame you. You probably just skimmed past it.

The game where the Cait was 20/5? What of the Thresh that was 1/4/32? You have to give credit where credit is due. That game would've been difficult to actually sway the outcome of for anyone, considering that nobody did well that game, with a couple of autofilled players sprinkled in.

"So you're wrong, plus the game games you won this week playing Rammus was because you got carried by your ADs" Dang, how did we jump to conclusions so quickly? I could offer you some videos of my gameplay, but even then you'd probably find some way to debunk my simply audacious retorts. Instead, I'll try and keep this to text.

What do you think a tank's role in a game is? To destroy everyone while simultaneously being able to take a beating? That's stepping into the realm of juggernauts and bruisers. While people can do similar on tanks, in the end, their job is to enable the team. Someone needs to start the fight, or soak as much damage as possible, all so the carries can stay as safe as possible while they do their thing.

_A tank doesn't need to carry through score. They enable through their kits, no matter how behind they are. _

Besides, don't you know? Better to be carry-able than be deadweight.

83% winrate Rammus has to mean something

MelledoneusJun 18, 20179 votes

DE-

FUCKING

-STROYED

AhristocatsJun 18, 201713 votes

it doesn't matter if he was against cait

it doesn't matter if he was against whatever champ he was

he managed to get to d4 70 lp with it, that doesn't make any assumption on balance but actually shows that you can play a tank while not being galio or zac

ProfDrDeathJun 18, 20177 votes

Top lane tanks got screwed over, for the most part, because they finally nerfed the laning crutch that was Sunfire Cape. Now that the item is mainly a waveclear tool instead of giving you more power in champ-to-champ combat, the ability of tanks to lane got turned down. I even made a threat on it back when the tank update hit:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bYuQIwXF-mstu-observations-on-top-lane-tanks

Since then, quite a few tanks got buffs:

Rammus got a minor rework, and looks fairly decent in the jungle - which was always more of his home than top lane. DrMundo , while not being a true tank, got buffed, as he was affected by the Sunfire nerfs. Malphite 's E got buffed with an increased Armor ratio. He is back at a winrate of about 51% on top lane. Sion 's W got buffed to have a lower CD and a better HP ratio.

On PBE, there are also some more beneficial changes: Gnar is buffed. Poppy is buffed. item 3001 is changed to build out of Catalyst, giving lane tanks a really nice build path for that item. You'd think that tanks really ought to like Catalyst's passive - mana sustain through the damage they take, and health sustain based on their high mana costs. item 3751 is cheaper and accessible after a full jungle clear.

Also, I'd like to contest your assertion that tank items, overall, took heavy nerfs in the tank update:

item 3742 got a goldneutral stat change and a positive passive change. item 3143 got a hefty nerf, I agree. item 3001 got improved for tanks (and gets even better on PBE). item 3194 and item 3193 were added - and while the former is somewhat underwhelming, the latter is a massive powerhouse. item 3065 got first buffed, but then nerfed as it was too strong. item 3068 got a goldneutral stat change, but the nerf that harshly affects its champ-to-champ prowess (and now awaits a cost reduction). item 3083 was buffed. However, what really signifies the changes to be a buff to defensive itemization were the changes to Black Cleaver and the Last Whispers: While the combined HP/Resistance items were changed to have higher emphasis on the Resistance part, the ArPen of these items went down significantly (by roughly 20%).

The EcdysiastJun 18, 20172 votes

I don't remember seeing any Gnar or Poppy buffs, and your lack of an explanation for what theirs were makes me suspicious.

The others were superficial, and haven't done anything to improve their performance.

ProfDrDeathJun 18, 20171 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html#balance

The EcdysiastJun 19, 20172 votes

Ah, the buffs to Gnar and Poppy are extremely slight. 1% increase to hammer shock damage doesn't come close to matching the nerf to sunfire vs. opponents.

If they wanted to make it so tanks fight the minions instead of champions, they should've brought back Strength of the Ages.

Sexy Jack RabbitJun 19, 20172 votes

To be fair Poppy is not struggling that much though.

1% is actually 2% and it's Max health damage on top of that.

You can't buff her durability anymore as she'll just reach the stage she was in before, and she's not lacking in any other area.

Not too mention her Q reaches a 5 second base cooldown at max rank.

The EcdysiastJun 19, 20171 votes

Poppy's down to 44% winrate, with the loss rate against counters being drastically higher than the win rate against champions she counters, and has been struggling ever since they wrongfully nerfed her due to CoC, when they then nerfed CoC anyway. So I don't know where your evaluation is coming from. That exact problem is why Sejuani was shit, because she was too good with Cinderhulk and they ignored her until now.

Any champion who can buy bork can do that on a 1 second cooldown. The issue is that every tank needs back the durability they had before, or the damage. They hit both the durability AND damage of sunfire on the same patch, leaving it only an option on those champions who can poke from range.

Sexy Jack RabbitJun 20, 20171 votes

Where are you getting 44% from? Majority of sites are listing her close to 46%. And considering everything she's always been a champion to be below 50% win rate.

The EcdysiastJun 20, 20171 votes

Just because she's always been at 49 doesn't make it okay for her to be so far from the average, and the rate drops as low as 38% against her hardest counter-- which shouldn't be the case for ANY matchup on ANY champion.

And the "buff" is just a change to make her as effective as before against tanks, since now that tanks have less HP her Q does less damage against its intended targets.

PoskeJun 17, 20175 votes

Exclude maokai he is actually bad again

Only good tanks are sejuani galio and zac With zac outclassing the other 2..

Wet DrymanJun 17, 201710 votes

I find it hilarious that Gragas is a veeeeery popular pick in LCS and has over 10% pick rate in solo Q with 50% win rate yet no one ever mentions him in any Tank discussions (unless in a hate thread which is rare as well).

PoskeJun 17, 20173 votes

+1 sorry I forgot about gragas

Definetly a viable tank idk why i didnt mention him

You can even somewhat put a malphite in that group he is there in low - mid elo

Amumu is also there in low elo

PB4UAMEJun 18, 20171 votes

Imho he's much more of a battle mage than a tank.

Like, I consider Gragas to be much more of a Swain than a Leona or Shen, and since Gragas has primarily been built as an AP mage since mid season 1 with many years of him being an AP carry, I think its very easy to see that not many people think "Gragas" when we are discussing tanks.

Wet DrymanJun 18, 20172 votes

He is too much burst oriented to be a real Battle Mage and has too much CC in his kit as well. He is much more like a Control Mage or Burst Mage.

It Hertz When IPJun 18, 20175 votes

When did the term "AP Bruiser" go out of style? That's what I always thought he was called.

Wet DrymanJun 18, 20171 votes

Shortly after his post rework nerfs (ya know, his waveclear and W nerfs) people started to build him full tank. Then Cinderhulk meta came and he was one of the main abusers and he pretty much stays as Tank - Vanguard in Riot's classification since then, he is balanced around this class.

Term "AP Bruiser" since Rylai and alike got nerfed super hard, since Rumble goes full AP and since they introduced new classification is just not fitting anymore.

My Waifu VanillaJun 18, 20172 votes

Because Gragas is only a real tank when played top lane (which is very rare now with him having to actually conserve mana and just being "worse Galio" in lane). Gragas plays much more like a Diver than anything in the jungle ESPECIALLY since he almost ALWAYS goes Runic Echoes which is far from a tank item and bursts squishies with his all in after level 7.

Wet DrymanJun 18, 20172 votes

That's why I want Gragas to be pushed into bruiser role and balanced around it instead of a Vanguard. It would stop complaints about "why a guy with runic echoes and iceborn gauntlet bursts me down with full combo if he is a tank". Even his original intention was to be Disruptive Bruiser (hence his proposed items even those updated ones from February).

The EcdysiastJun 18, 20172 votes

Because he has a lot of range on his abilities. Generally it's the low range tanks that get screwed when Sunfire gets huge nerfs like it did. He and Galio are in good spots because they have that strength.

And like Ekko/Fizz, he's not intended to be building full tank. The strange thing is that he and Galio aren't building RoA like intended.

Wet DrymanJun 18, 20172 votes

Sunfire did hurt Gragas his initial drop in winrate for top was 2% to 1% (depends on site). He could just eliminate that problem by Doran stacking because this item is extremely gold efficient on him (gives him every stat he wants), did let him waveclear safely and worked with the next two powerspike items he bought. Tanks like Sion couldn't because it wasn't as efficient (he doesn't scale so well with AP) and he has different item powerspikes. After Doran stacking nerf Gragas disappeared from top lane (he is listed as Jungler only on LeagueofGraphs now because of his low pick rate on top). He has still about 3,5% pick rate in high elo but he maintains 47-48,5% win rate there.

Can't say much about Galio because I never played him after rework but in Gragas case RoA is terrible. When you build him tanky or bruisery you aim for early and mid game power as you will get outscaled in late anyway, RoA is actually late game power as it needs 10 minutes to stop being worthless. For the same gold value you can buy Protobelt, Iceborn Gauntlet, Morello or Abyssal Mask after next patch as all of them work extremely well with his kit. It will give you very powerful boost to damage and tankiness at the same time instantly (in Morello's case it will give you sustain and waveclear as you will one shot a wave with fermented Q). Not to mention that these items give him CDR and he loves this stat because of how long his cooldowns are early in the game.

Unless time for RoA stacking will be removed or reduced Bruisers and Tanks will never buy it. If you're not Battle Mage buying RoA is literally handicapping yourself.

IceKingChernobogJun 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ns8oGfMH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-17T21:13:02.061+0000)

Exclude maokai he is actually bad again

Only good tanks are sejuani galio and zac With zac outclassing the other 2..

throw galio into that mix cause he can tank just as hard as those two can.

PoskeJun 18, 20172 votes

he was already thrown

Big LincolnJun 17, 20174 votes

yeah we should have more tanks into super CC bots lol

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 18, 20173 votes

is this irony ?? Because to me this is what tank should be. If some wan't damage it would be fighter (Jugger & Divers).

Champion SkinJun 18, 20172 votes

Well if you make all tanks super CC bots with very low damage then you pretty much make all tanks into supports....

since you need damage to be able to get by in top lane (well you might be fine if you stay under tower during the entire laning phase and if you have some ranged way of farming) And Junglers need damage to be able to get through clearing the jungle (though you could give abilities which deal good damage against jungle monsters but not much against champions)

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 18, 20171 votes

(though you could give abilities which deal good damage against jungle monsters but not much against champions)

Exactly.

since you need damage to be able to get by in top lane (well you might be fine if you stay under tower during the entire laning phase and if you have some ranged way of farming)

there damage & damage. Shen Gragas & Galio damages are stupid... and they have tankiness.

this isn't fair

Champion SkinJun 18, 20171 votes

Darius Illaoi and most juggernauts have high damage and durability and their damage often scale a lot better than the damage of tanks which often does get weaker later on in the game

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 18, 20172 votes

Juggernauts usualy have fair gimmick and low cc. And they need to invest resistance to be tanky. Have u ever laned against gragas, shen or Galio ?

The EcdysiastJun 18, 20171 votes

Their damage is half that of any fighter in top lane, and a quarter any juggernaut's-- with lower defensive stats. The only difference is that Gragas and Galio have a ranged ability to even farm at all when the opponent has such high kill pressure.

The EcdysiastJun 18, 20171 votes

It's their job. Ignore his posts. He just doesn't want any champions to be able to contest juggernauts, and so all of his threads and comments push against any change that might do that.

Of course he's happy tank items made it impossible to even get within 40 farm of a juggernaut opponent as a tank, let alone defend against their damage since Cleaver is way better for a lower combine cost.

The Yetii RiderJun 17, 20173 votes

Rammus and Amumu got smaller updates as well. It hasn't been that long since Alistar and Leona received changes either.

Tank items were all nerfed to make divers squishier, since divers only buy one or two pure tank items. It's fine, Cinderhulk was buffed, which is fantastic. Tanks clear faster, get their items faster. It works a lot better.

Support tanks got CDR Knights Vow, a free Malphite passive on Targons, and Zeke's Harbinger rework.

The only tanks who are "bad" right now are in top lane, and fuck those people.

kile147Jun 17, 201718 votes

Fuck those people? Historically top lane is where tanks are supposed to be picked.

The Yetii RiderJun 17, 20173 votes

Yeah. Metas should change and adapt. Tanks have been and should be completely balanced around Cinderhulk, because Cinderhulk makes all their items better. If a champion is tanky enough without Cinderhulk he's likely broken with it.

There's only a few champions that see play in top from tank roles anyway. Gragas, Nunu, Amumu, Sejuanj, Rammus, and Zac are all junglers. Leona, Braum, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Alistar, Taric and Tahm Kench are all supports.

The tank update was good for the majority of tank players. People who play top can play mages, juggernauts, divers or even marksmen. Leave our tanks alone.

It Hertz When IPJun 18, 20172 votes

So why are we limiting tanks to jungle? Jungle has always been AN option for tanks, but top lane has always been their home.

The Yetii RiderJun 18, 20171 votes

Because top lane is an area that is ruled by split pushing and dueling, two things that tanks are awful at. Add in that the mid year tank update intentionally reduced the power spike of a single defensive item and you have tanks who need at least two items to be good going up against juggernauts and divers rushing The Black Cleaver, which reduces the effectiveness of their already poor first item.

Why would anyone be able to function in an environment like that? How are tanks supposed to do well in top lane?

It Hertz When IPJun 19, 20171 votes

I mean, one way to make them function in toplane would be to NOT balance them around an item they wouldn't have access to.

IA9hRfpP5qJun 18, 20171 votes

Darius needs to take some actual skill. Change him too. His heal attack should be a cone infront of him not a goddamn circle "hurr hurr here I come, spin heal attack" and his point - click ult. Braindead champion.

Mig89Jun 18, 20171 votes

Darius isn't a tank

The EcdysiastJun 19, 20172 votes

Which is kinda funny, since now his first item which already hard-countered sunfire matches it for defensive stats.

Darius got a massive buff when the tank items were changed since he builds cleaver for no downside, and lower health on tank items means his ultimate is even more effective.

The EcdysiastJun 19, 20171 votes

What Darius needs is some actual thought put into a rework, instead of the creation of a new class that never existed to begin with.

They claimed that Nasus was the inspiration for the class, but the main weakness he has is nonexistent on the others. That is, he is weak early game

Darius is the biggest offender, as there is no champion who can reasonably fight against him in lane unless he's brand new to the champion. The raw stats he gets simply overpower anyone who makes an attempt. He forces you to play safe as if you'd already been feeding even though no one has died yet.