i mean we have 4 ap... they have 5 ad
and yet despite every ap champ rushing 
despite me building 
and grabbing 
instead of my normal 
there still isn't jack shit we can do
i mean if your vs ap you can grab 
or a 
or if u want to go full damage you can grab 
and you dont fucking give a damn about anyone ap in the game
yet there isnt jack she we can do as ap vs a full ad team...
RenownedWheat4243 votesOne armor item isn't going to suddenly make you OP, just like one MR item won't. Full AD/AP comps are punishable if you've got a tank. Yes, the extra survivability from Tabi/Iceborn/Zhonya's is great, but don't expect just those purchases to make you abuse the enemy with no effort.
A full AD comp gets shit on by a comp who has a frontline tank with 
that can soak everything so his backline can kick ass and shred the enemy apart.
Zhonya's will put you at, what, 125 armor late-game, best case? How do you expect 125 armor to protect you from five AD champs???
SwiftKitten8825 votesOne armor item isn't going to suddenly make you OP, just like one MR item won't. Full AD/AP comps are punishable if you've got a tank. Yes, the extra survivability from Tabi/Iceborn/Zhonya's is great, but don't expect just those purchases to make you abuse the enemy with no effort.
A full AD comp gets shit on by a comp who has a frontline tank with
Zhonya's will put you at, what, 125 armor late-game, best case? How do you expect 125 armor to protect you from five AD champs???
the difference is they can grab different items to make mages bad vs them while still going full damage.. and they also can grab nullifying orb, while we can only build one ... THAT'S the problem
RenownedWheat4222 votesThis is a different argument entirely, and that point is one I agree with. Mages need more Anti-AD shit like AD have tons of Anti-AP. But the topic is about how to abuse all-AD comps.
SwiftKitten8816 votesThis is a different argument entirely, and that point is one I agree with. Mages need more Anti-AD shit like AD have tons of Anti-AP. But the topic is about how to abuse all-AD comps.
but that's one of the biggest parts of the issue... becuase ad can still go full damage and tank everything we throw at them
while we would have to stop building AP and grab something like to survive
this in turn would make our damage less and and make it even harder to break through all the magic resist and shielding they have while building full damage vs us still. it's a lose lose for us...
RenownedWheat426 votesAlright I didn't reply to this for a while but here's the reality of the situation.
Say you've got all the safety your kit can give you building primarily damage. 
and we'll say a 
You're getting bonus 105 MR and a 405 shield from Maw. Tack on 30% of damage becoming DoT from DD and PD denying 15% of the champ you're targeting.
On Yasuo, this means you're looking at 2002 hp, 156.3 MR (61% reduced damage) before runes. So 2407 effective HP due to maw shield. Lifesteal makes this a little skewed so I won't throw that in with the actual math, just something to consider.
Say he's fighting a Syndra with semi-tankiness but otherwise primarily damage. 
Syndra will have 2353 hp, 158 armor (61% reduced damage) before runes.
Q: 434 W: 461 (+92 true damage) E: 448 Ult: Minimum 738, Max 1722 Liandry's: 2-4% current HP as magic damage
Void staff takes off 40% of Yasuo's total MR, so he's down to 93. Minus 15 from Liandry's and he's down to 78. That's roughly 44% reduced.
Now take that into account and you're hitting for:
Q: 243 W: 258.2 (+92 True damage) E: 251 Ult: Min 413.3, Max 964.3 Liandry's: will be roughly 1-2% current HP.
Full rotation: (throw out all your Qs, hit with W and E, throw Ult in) 2051 minimum (Q low CD, can cast multiple times, includes prepping some but not hitting those)
Throw in another Q post ult and you take that to 2294, throw in autos and you've EASILY got enough to take the Yas down 100-0 despite his defenses in the event he wasn't able to hit you. In the event he does, take off 15% damage for 1949, but in this case you can kite with Q and continue to shove him back.
Now assume he's being hit by MULTIPLE mages and he's just deleted. Hell, throw in sorc boots rather than tabi and you're hitting considerably harder.
Starcraft243ver4 votesYou took the best nuke mage as an example, you forgot yasuo's wall and his passive shield.
And ffs when you buy 3 lifesteal items on yasuo, you can't just say "oh, let's ignore it". Take lifesteal out of the game, and ad teams are fucked up, sure, we all can agree.
So doing a whole demonstration without the lifesteal part is senseless.
Lios Ashenblade1 votes
helps a lot tbh, since ap damage is generally higher <especially since they took away peoples base mr>
also a good call and 
all those will beef you up, without hurting your bottom line too much
SwiftKitten8810 votes[{quoted}](name=Lios Ashenblade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NmEE0YfQ,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2018-01-28T17:53:27.896+0000)
is fantasic... except you doint get the passive until it upgrades to 
when its fully stacked.. and take takes to damn long when games end so fast
same issue with unless your rush it first item, it wont be very useful by the time to game ends.
WAS the go to item becuase it gave decent ap and HP wihout being gated by a passive
but then certain champs like 
turned what was supposed to be a 1 second slow into a permanent slow
and instead of being sensible and preventing this issue by adding an internal cooldown per target.. riot guts the item so its near worthless to anyone who CAN'T apply a perma-slow with it.
really is the best option. no doubt there. and MOST champs can use its passive to full effect on at a least one ability.. but unfortunately.. 
has no form of cc herself therefore i would need to complete both AND for the full burn passive
which considering i already need to rush 
for the mana regen then because their full ad THEN get so i can burst them
and get boots.. that leaves them as my 4th and 5th item... by which time the enemy has already won..
so.. yeah...
ShuyinTheX5 votesFull AD/AP comps are punishable if you've got a tank
+ critical strike damage ignoring some armor + Life Steal healing the person attacking the tank + Shiv and Rapid Firecannon giving magic damage when they proc.
So yeah, building an Armor Tank feels like total shit because there is too much that gets around it.
RenownedWheat427 votesbork: 8% hp as phys damage, 100 magic damage active duskblade: 320 phys damage 18 lethality razor: 4% hp phys damage whisper: 35% BONUS armor pen cleaver: max 24% armor reduction youmuu's: 18 lethality Shiv: 160 magic damage rfc: 120 magic damage
Now let's get some stats goin onnnnnn for the tanks
: -20% damage from crits, attack speed slow
: grievous wounds, 10% armor +25 thorns
both important effects
full armor tank lookin like: (w/o runes)
With 
this puts you at:
4780 hp, 397 armor (80% reduction), 53 MR (35% reduction), with additional 15% blocked per auto AND 20% reduced crits + AS slow, grievous.
Roughly 65 damage in thorns.
Whisper throws 35% reduction into bonus armor, 290 is bonus, means 180.5 bonus for 287 armor. Round up or not, it's w/e. Still well over 70%. After cleaver we'll say about 210, which is around 65%+ reduction.
Bork active will hit for 65, passive for 134 when rounded up. Duskblade will hit for 112. Razor for 67 rounded up. Shiv for 104 Rfc for 78
Now factor in tabis reducing all of that by another fifteen. That total, minus bork active, will be 420 after. Now you lose duskblade, shiv, rfc and you're hitting for just 157 bonus damage per hit, all while taking 65 damage yourself per auto.
You're consistently going to be hitting the guy for 157 bonus damage while receiving a 15% attack speed slow. Maokai's autos will heal him for 686.4 hp when his passive procs and that'll happen very often when you've got abilities hitting you or hitting him. That's more than four of your autos' bonus hp damage dumpstered, at which point you've hit yourself for the equivalent of maybe two.
Let's assume you've got five people doing this damage and for some reason they've all got this armor shredding build so they can deal extra damage to him. Five 420 bursts of 2.1k. He heals back 686 immediately with one auto. This puts him at 3366 hp. Now you're all hitting him at the same time with this total of 785 bonus damage on hit, assuming he's not healing through at least one of those every couple seconds with passive spam.
That's a ton of autos you're all pouring out onto this single Maokai while his backline is firing on you relentlessly. And let me tell you it won't be pretty.
Maokai can throw out enough CC and damage and sustain on his own that he'll lock you down for long enough to make sure his team does the job. Level 18 carry with no boots and maybe you're looking at something around 80-100 armor. Ashe for example has 88 - and if you've got this armor shredding build then your own defenses are basically nonexistent.
Say all of Maokai's team has the suboptimal but same build as the one with 5 AD champs. It's a bullshit build to have but they'll do about double damage per auto as the guys focusing Mao. So yeah, maybe you'll take Maokai down, but in that time you're going to lose at LEAST four carries with the fifth running away from a 1v4.
ShuyinTheX1 votesBecause every champion is a sustain annoyance like Maokai. If you're going to math then do it with a tank that can be considered standard across the board.
RenownedWheat424 votesMaokai is popular.
Take it with any other tank and you've got a similar situation.
+ 75% damage reduction from ult, heal on kill, AoE knock-up for disruption plus enough hard CC to keep the hardest hitting enemy down.
spammable active shield that will make it so you almost never touch his health bar. With the same stats as above it's a 900hp shield, plus he's got aoe damage while it's up.
will negate autos for 1.75 seconds plus he has a shield of 770 up every 10 sec.
passive puts her way over Maokai in initiation stats plus lockdown makes her even better in a few cases. One of your carries won't even get to play the game in that fight.
shield to reduce damage from all autos on top of his ult plus defense increase from W.
The stats work for any tank. Just because I picked Maokai doesn't mean I'm wrong or nitpicking. I picked Maokai as a stat reference. His passive will do way more than I described in there and I know because I've been in that situation. One damage type on a team against Maokai means Maokai is unkillable unless literally 1v5.
only zhule1 votesOne armor item isn't going to suddenly make you OP, just like one MR item won't. Full AD/AP comps are punishable if you've got a tank. Yes, the extra survivability from Tabi/Iceborn/Zhonya's is great, but don't expect just those purchases to make you abuse the enemy with no effort.
A full AD comp gets shit on by a comp who has a frontline tank with
Zhonya's will put you at, what, 125 armor late-game, best case? How do you expect 125 armor to protect you from five AD champs???
For sake of argument here, how do you feel that item line up holds up against say 2-3 AD champion with 100% crit chance and 
RenownedWheat422 votesI made an argument about huge armor shredding on FIVE AD champs down below with tons of math behind it.
Even if you have just one tank and they get shredded by all five of the enemy, and they ALL focus you, that's enough time for your four carries to delete at least four of their carries assuming they've got the same build (which is pointless because your enemy has no tank). With an OPTIMAL build on the tank's team it wins even harder.
Bârd22 votesFound the game in question.
Three reasons you lost.
VS
Their only weaknesses were that they needed to snowball and that they had no magic damage.
Your team has: No CC outside of botlane (even then, nothing reliable). No engage outside Jhin ult, which would get punished by Thresh and J4. No sustained damage whatsoever. No tanks or frontliners. Nobody who can hold a lane 1v1 against their split pushing Irelia. No actual carry.
...need I go on?
was 22/5/10
was 15/4/7
had enough gold that he was able to buy
End score was 27-48. You got shat on, plain and simple.
It didn't help that your team thought "Let's stack armor" above "Let's build to be functional".
You were by far the worst in this matter.
You built with .
Not only do you deal NO DAMAGE, you haven't bought a single point of HP, so all that armor you bought means nothing.
had the right idea. She built into a normal build. If she weren't in such a bad matchup as , she might've actually done well.
Because your team was building to not die (not that it worked) instead of building to deal damage, the enemy didn't even have to build MR.
got 
. That is the extent of the magic resist the enemy team bought.
In fact, only built armor.
You didn't lose that game because "WAAAAAH AP IS SO UNDER POWERED!!!!!!!!!".
You lost that game because you played it poorly in every aspect I can see.
Chembaron Yamada6 votesAdditionally Jhin into Zed, so he can get alot of extra AD.
JackMcSnipeyz5 votesI love these threads trying to make it look like everything is wrong besides them. When i heard he built brofist instead of lich i knew he didnt know what the fuck he was doing.
Bârd3 votesEh, IBG Nid is a thing... if you're going AD Bruiser Nid Top. Even then, Triforce is the go-to.
If you're trying to go assassin Nid, going IBG is dumb. The only assassin that can get away with it is Kassadin, if only because he has mana ratios.
NineTailedMystic1 votesMaybe the issue is that there wasn't anything he could have built to survive since he was behind short of a full tank Armor item because AP options are shit?
Bârd2 votesNo, pretty sure the issue is that their comp was hot garbage.
If you're gonna pick yourself into a hole where the only win condition is a hard early snowball, you're probably gonna lose.
leakinb13 votesHaven't see any AP champs in mid-lane for long time in low elo AD is far better than AP atm
Disembark6 votesNot a single AD champ picked in competitive in mid across all regions all of season 8.
Divewing2 votes"in mid-lane for long time in low elo"
immediate comparison to competitive play
dude...
Sona Ping3 votes"in mid-lane for long time in low elo"
immediate comparison to competitive play
dude...
Yeah, he replaced a bad point with a better one. For discussion on the game's state, it doesn't matter that low elo players just want to take AD assassins mid because they want to play Team Deathmatch.
Dead flag blues11 votesI still don't get why do MR and Armor have the same value.
Marksmen are allowed to have sustained damage thanks to their AA (hum "sustained" 
[slayer-jinx-wink] )
Mages (most of them) are all about burst damage (dot mages still get fucked by helmet tho, why don't we have an item that decrease the AA damage if we get hit by them ? And yes shut up don't start with "mAlzAhAR iS bRokEN). So once they used their rotations, they have to wait for CDs, while marksmen can just keep right-clicking (and also [slayer-jinx-wink] )
Chembaron Yamada12 votesWhy don't we have an item that decrease the AA damage if we get hit by them?
?
Dead flag blues3 votes
decreasing the amount of damage received after each hit.
Chembaron Yamada11 votesThat's not what adaptive helm does, either. If you get hit by a spell, you will take 20% less damage from the same spell for 4 seconds.
If you get hit by the same spell again, the duration resets, but the damage reduction does not stack.
SooFr0sty3 votes
Sp33d Zer03 votes
are ALL purely defensive items designed to stop sustained physical dps.
Infernal Ironic7 votes[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NmEE0YfQ,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-01-28T22:46:46.563+0000)
dies in 6 autos in 3 seconds
10/10 WOULD DO AGAIN
NOT
Sp33d Zer04 votes100% not accurate. But ok.
Divewing1 votes3 seconds is 20 minutes in league time
But in all seriousness, a LOT can happen in the space of 3 seconds in League.
Sp33d Zer04 votesI just laugh and laugh as you see constant 15 second team fights. Hell, we saw a teamfight so long in the UoL vs Splyce game that Ornn got to ult TWICE.
People just love to exaggerate how strong adc's are; especially on the boards.
Divewing2 votesThat's because these people are talking about SoloQ, not co-ordianted play.
The pros have to pick assuming everything has stopwatch, this means that burst is undesirable, hyper carries and consistent damage threats are in, and tanks/engagers fill the rest out.
Solo q on the other hand is "kill everything ASAP".
Something that also exacerbates this is that it's more pronounced the lower elo you go, which is important because <50% of every server is silver at the most.
Remember that context is important.
Sp33d Zer03 votesEven in solo queue I play these hyper carries. My most played champs are ashe, jinx, xayah, etc. I can tell you that unless I am something like 4k gold ahead, you do not kill a tank in 3 seconds.
Iffy Jarl7 votesbecause u have no tanks?
TotalJerk7 votesThis is straight bullshit.
Infernal Ironic6 votesi mean are have 4 ap... they have 5 ad and yes despite every ap champ rushing
despite me building
there still isn't jack shit we can do
i mean if your vs ap you can grab
or if u want to go full damage you can grab
yet there isnt jack she we can do as ap vs a full ad team...
While I completly agree this is an issue I ll explain why
Lw Costs 1300 gold and has huge % penetration AD items are insane
Just take a look at Essence Reaver. Underated item which gives 80% AD 30% cdr (yes with other crit stuff) and no mana issues? Compare it to one of the strongest Ap items nomicon XD
Ninja tabi got nerfed by quite a lot over years Same as Randiuns
Zhonya is dogshit tier item fed by stopwatch + its the only option we have Armguards is UGH puke
SooFr0sty4 votesIt's only bonus armor compared to ** ** which is 40 total
Let's not even talk about base scaling either.
Oakleaf Ranger3 votesWell it depends. Its not just as simple as saying that the enemy has full ad and we just need to build armor and win. What champions is your team made up of? This question alone will decide how much a bonus your team will gain from building armor vs a full AD team. If your team is nothing but squishies then stacking armor wont help much because your champions need to build damage to be relevant. Plus it also depends on how well your champions scale, champions that scale poorly into the mid and late game without a lead are probably not going to see much benefit from building armor once they get there.
The only champions that are going to have noticeable benefits from facing a full ad team are bruisers and tanks who normally itemize for both magic and physical threats but who can now solely focus on one type.
Bârd4 votesThe lineups were:
vs
Aljonau1 votesI might be a bit late... but as far as I can tell this is not an item issue, or at least not alone.
The ads had a way better composition:
The APs best bet: snowball botlane.
Violet Fields2 votesI've been saying this for months now, I had almost 600 armor as Malphite, yet I get one shotted by just Wukong, but I can build a stupid Spirit Visage and AP is useless against me.
I don't play tanks, I'm just using this as a theoretical example because it actually happened before when I was autofilled top lane. The ONLY champion I swear that can get around this is by playing 
and rushing Rabadons, Void Staff, Morell's, and then just go full tank.
Oakleaf Ranger9 votesI've been saying this for months now, I had almost 600 armor as Malphite, yet I get one shotted by just Wukong, but I can build a stupid Spirit Visage and AP is useless against me.
I'm going to have to call the BS police or see some real proof of this because otherwise I'm not going to believe a malphite who stacked armor is losing to Wukong let alone getting one shot by him.
RenownedWheat422 votes600+ armor is like 85% damage reduction so unless the Wukong had 34 duskblades or something there's literally no way it's possible lmao
AS I LAY FEEDING2 votesJust pick Malph rush tabi/bramble vest.
deadlychuck2 votesChampion select isn't the place that this stuff should be susceptible to abuse.
Chembaron Yamada5 votesIt actually is supposed to be one of the places. Why do you think that anti-AD tanks like Malphite and Rammus exist in the first place?
Bârd4 votesDrafting is important.
You pick to deal with what the enemy has and fill the gaps in what your team needs.
You don't just pick whatever the hell you want. That will lose you games.