Imaqtpie summons up the problem of marksmen

Ahristocats·Feb 25, 2018·107 votes·13,771 views

https://youtu.be/jIPposmR-nQ?t=266 in this video he compared AP kai'sa build versus classic adc build and immediatly pointed out the issue of going AP kai'sa

zeal items LW items and GA cost absolutly nothing quotting him "the damage is pretty close but there is no fucking way that you ever get the gold for those items" (talking about ap items)

hello riot?????? zeal items are not crappy non-scalling items jesus they're real offensive items that should not cost 2600 gold seriously please fixe this at least you must fixe this if you want kai'sa to actually have diversity in her items

158 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201844 votes

Without getting into whether this particular argument is the issue with marksmen (I certainly think it's fair to say there could be several), it's pretty likely marksmen issues get some attention in the near future, especially if we're going to be looking to diversify the kinds of champions that can be played in the bottom lane effectively. Item efficiency could be one of the things to look at.

Tails9016Feb 26, 20189 votes

it's pretty likely marksmen issues get some attention in the near future

#SOON™

But seriously, any idea on what patch that could be in? Or is the Marksman plan still in early/idea phase?

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201818 votes

The "other stuff in bottom lane" is aimed for midseason, so that's like 8.8 or so?

Sorry for not knowing the exact patch, am home atm.

VelasanFeb 26, 20183 votes

Are there any plans to have marksmen who focus on other stats than crit? Lethality on marksmen seemed to be a thing for a while, but that's steadily been less effective.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201818 votes

The best work would be comprehensive and touch on all kinds of marksmen. Hopefully time allows for that. I don't know the exact nature of the work being done here, as I'm not directly involved with it at this point.

AirKingNeoFeb 26, 201812 votes

I really like this turn around where you are actually talking to the community. It probably isn't perfect or even close, but it's the first step and that is enough for today. I hope we never have to go back to the days where getting a response would require a gunshot.

I hope the Aatrox rework keeps his fun dueling playstyle and it just as massacring. I hope that whenever discussion for the Kayle rework happens, you come talk to the Kayle mains, preferably on Discord or something, but hopefully not blown up and the server getting flooded.

Hoping you see this comment before this thread potentially gets blown up. Thank you.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201813 votes

Seen.

SasogwaFeb 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Seen.

https://i.imgur.com/bV4qwoH.jpg

But seriously, it's nice when Rioters intervene, and I know you've done it in the past.

SpideraxeFeb 26, 20189 votes

Do you have any regrets from the update, since you were one of the big reworkers of the update

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201830 votes

Kinda... There are definitely things I would do differently a second time around, but hindsight is 20/20, so yeah.

F3EDfromDesIr3Feb 26, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Kinda... There are definitely things I would do differently a second time around, but hindsight is 20/20, so yeah.

May I ask if you personally regret making Rageblade an Item only for Ranged Champions/ADCs? I loved playing the old Rageblade on Melees and was pretty disappointed after the Rework.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201816 votes

On a personal level, no. I had very little involvement in that particular decision.

DaxsxFeb 26, 20184 votes

Not necessarily asking what items you were particularly involved in, but are you saying that there are independent, at least to a certain extent, teams or individuals working on different item updates? Just seems rather unintuitive given that, aside from the testing of them, those projects seem like much more of a conceptual task than a labor intensive one that'd benefit from dividing the work up separately.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 26, 201810 votes

There can be. I may be off, but didn't Rageblade get changed sometime after the marksman update?

Kog And BallsFeb 26, 20182 votes

5.22 saw the hydra variant of Rageblade it was later replaced with the phantom hit Rageblade in 6.9 for being too snowbally at its 2800 gold price point, speaking of which has anything changed on that front Rageblade seems to be just as snowbally now as it was back then? Kog and Varus winrates in the first 25 minutes of the game were consistently 50%+ until Kog was nerfed in 8.3.

Is Rageblade a problem item the balance team has on their radar or are Kog and Varus just pushing the limits of what the item should do?

Shadow HazardFeb 26, 20183 votes

Well it had 2. There was the splash one that was in the marksman update. The current one was alongside the devourer removal. I and many other players that played mostly melee champs that could take good advantage of that (a few that got preemptive AP ratio buffs) are still very sour that the item was pretty effectively gutted for the melee users while kog, kayle, teemo, varus, and the rare vayne could be happy with it.

Especially more so after wit's end got a recent change that has been similarly requested of rageblade.

Is it really going to take the same number of years of it being too unfairly favored by marksman like wits end was, or are you guys going to cop out and treat it like zephyr with (too niche, not enough users).

SkyroarFeb 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Kinda... There are definitely things I would do differently a second time around, but hindsight is 20/20, so yeah.

My biggest problem with ADCs is how fast they can itemnize to outburst everyone else. For a class whose biggest strengths are ramp damage/ dps and objective taking, at the cost of weak early game, the fact that they can burst like assassins with only two items while still having 10 shields placed on them by supports makes the class ridiculously overpowered at the current state.

(And I'm actually fine with supports being stronger than before, really.)

Jesus is SaviorFeb 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Without getting into whether this particular argument is the issue with marksmen (I certainly think it's fair to say there could be several), it's pretty likely marksmen issues get some attention in the near future, especially if we're going to be looking to diversify the kinds of champions that can be played in the bottom lane effectively. Item efficiency could be one of the things to look at.

Don't forget about melee ADCs when you do this. Don't let them get dumpstered in the process.

MasterYi Tryndamere

Sire HippingtonFeb 25, 201827 votes

not exatctly wrong, bu the burst of the ap-hybrid built is quite alot higher unless you get lucky with your crits(which is the main issue with adc since the very beginning of time it self), the sustain is higher, and the poke also is higher, and the execute potential from the passive also is far better while she also has cdr in the built. The hybrid built is clearly superior IF you get fullbuilt.

However. the ad built probably will still be dominant as costefficiency is a huge deal, especially on a champ like kai'sa that is rather bad in teamfights and strong at creating picks and small skirmishes. I also think she's most likely a jungler as her early laneing especially in the bot lane is quite lacking, and for the jungle cost efficience is even more importent.

It also doesn't help that the AD-abillity improvement on Q is by far the most powerfull while the AP empowered W is neat but by no means neccesary for her to be strong. this means AP kai'sa needs to compromise her built with a BotrK to reach the ad-threshhold while ad-kai'sa can just ignore ap.

TrikzterzArmaFeb 25, 20182 votes

Although it isn't hard to get in a very high crit-chance in your build

EedatFeb 25, 201812 votes

unless you get lucky with your crits(which is the main issue with adc since the very beginning of time it self),

Fun fact: Crits in LoL are not random. The are mechanics in place to make sure people don't crit too much or too little

Sire HippingtonFeb 25, 201818 votes

Fun fact: That still is random. The algorythem gets skewed so instead of haveing lets say 30% chance on every hit, you have below 30% for some hits after a crit and above 30% after not critting for a while. This means the chance for multiple crits in a row(or a non crit streak) is lower than it would be with a flat 30%, but the chance still exists and it still does happen!!!

it's like saying crit with 99% isn't random, yet there are still these nastsy 1% non crits that sometimes actually happen. People really don't get the concept of randomness...

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20189 votes

i do tho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPljxmcmuA

this is pseudo-RNG, and it still happened

EedatFeb 25, 20187 votes

Intentionally skewing results to end with a predetermined average is NOT random. Are you joking? In the real world you flip a coin and get heads. What is the probability the next flip is heads? 50%. Does it matter that you flipped heads right before that? No. THAT is random. Crits in league are NOT random. Each outcome intentionally skews the odds towards a specific outcome. Do YOU know what random is?

Sire HippingtonFeb 25, 201812 votes

Skewed odds are still odds, it's like loaded dice, the results are skewed, but for each singel roll you still can't say for sure what you get. Same with pseudo rng, results are screwed, yet for every single hit, there is no way to tell wether it crits or not, as it's still random. It doesn't matter if the chance for a crit drops to 0.0001% after your last crit, it still is there and can eventually happen no matter how bad the odds are. People win the lottery after all...

PB4UAMEFeb 26, 20184 votes

But skewed odds are NOT IN ANY WAY "random."

They are systemically skewed by other variables and factors. FFS its literally by definition. You don't know what the words you are using mean.

OHminusFeb 25, 201818 votes

Throwback to season 3, when I first started playing. Friends told me marksmen go bottom lane because they were "more reliant on gold than levels", which I think was somewhat true, considering everyone built item 3072 first and then went something like item 3087 item 3031 and the old last whisper after. The build was pretty expensive, but now ADC items are fairly cheap, so...

saltranFeb 25, 20187 votes

Old item 3072 with full stacks gave 100AD, that's why adcs build it first.

RyrynounetFeb 25, 20186 votes

there was also the possibility of getting ~~one shoted~~ punished for bad placement so they also needed to heal themselves to survive the struggle of early game

PB4UAMEFeb 26, 20182 votes

And they didn't get more than a lifesteal items worth of sustain passively and free from level 1 onwards.

saltranFeb 26, 20182 votes

As an adc main I don't really like the Bloodlust/Fleetwork but they force us to pick it since Fervor was nerfed for adcs and with the new ones PTA was also nerfed.

So it's Rito who on purpuse wants adc to not have a dmg Keystone/BigRune and we end up picking the sustain one since the dmg are worthles.

Sona PingFeb 25, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NkdAMgNZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-25T09:48:32.042+0000)

https://youtu.be/jIPposmR-nQ?t=268

in this video he compared AP kai'sa build versus classic adc build and immediatly pointed out the issue of going AP kai'sa

zeal items LW items and GA cost absolutly nothing quotting him "the damage is pretty close but there is no fucking way you ever get the gold for those items" (talking about ap items)

hello riot?????? zeal items are not crappy non-scalling items jesus they're real offensive items that should not cost 2600 gold seriously have you ever seen an offensive items that cost 2600 gold and have an offensive power of a 3k gold item? i guess there is void staff but it beyond penetration items there is nothing

please fixe this at least you must fixe this if you want kai'sa to actually have diversity in her items

Imaqtpie summons up the problem of marksmen

No, he did not.

He did not argue to support what your wrote. You are misrepresenting what he said and the context of this, the context being that he is responding to chat and testing "your shitty ass AP build" -Imaqtpie that he said was grossly unrealistic. I noticed the video started at 4:28, after he talked about the "awful awful build" saying "There is absolutely zero fucking way you ever build this in a game." -Imaqtpie and listing the price tags of the items because the build is a collection of the most expensive items in the game.

"they're real offensive items that should not cost 2600 gold seriously have you ever seen an offensive items that cost 2600 gold and have an offensive power of a 3k gold item?"

What is this even supposed to mean. This means nothing and is a baseless assertion, a claim Zeal items have some "3k offensive power". Zeal items are not even gold efficient. They are not the ones that have 1K more in stats than what you pay for, that's in the other build that you are using as evidence.

You can't place some theory crafted Ability Power build on an Attack Damage Carry, some build the level of "let's say this would be my full build by some act of god I don't get pounded" -imaqtpie like an AP Ashe and use that as evidence that AD items are too strong because the AP sucks in comparison.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201830 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NkdAMgNZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-02-25T13:01:26.319+0000)

No, he did not.

He did not argue to support what your wrote.

He did not indeed but it DOES support what i wrote, that's my point

He said that crit build is superior to ap build because of the cost, doesn't this tell you that there is a problem when zeal items cost 2600 gold and give a huge offensive power? that LW items cost 2600 gold too?

There is a huge problem with the cost of marksmen's items atm, they cost too little and give a huge amount of power to a class that scales hard in late game

Sona PingFeb 25, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NkdAMgNZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-02-25T13:04:08.460+0000)

He did not indeed but it DOES support what i wrote, that's my point

He said that crit build is superior to ap build because of the cost, doesn't this tell you that there is a problem when zeal items cost 2600 gold and give a huge offensive power? that LW items cost 2600 gold too?

There is a huge problem with the cost of marksmen's items atm, they cost too little and give a huge amount of power to a class that scales hard in late game

" He did not indeed but it DOES support what i wrote, that's my point" What do I even write for this? You contradict yourself in one sentence.

"He said that crit build is superior to ap build because of the cost, doesn't this tell you that there is a problem when zeal items cost 2600 gold and give a huge offensive power? " No, it says AP Twitch sucks and claiming that fact as evidence is either out-of-touch or dishonest in the same way as claiming that because AD Viktor sucks AP is too strong and needs to be nerfed, or that Tank Ornn is better than AP Ornn so tank items need to be nerfed. A bad build on a champion is not evidence that other items should be nerfed.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201824 votes

i'm sorry holy shit i didn't even realise how bad your argument was

you think that AP kai'sai can be compared to AP twitch? wow, just wow i don't even need to talk, go read kai'sai's kit SHE WAS LITERALLY MADE TO WORK WITH AP ROFL, she has so much ap ratios,, she has an upgrade on her spell depending on how much ap she has [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Sona PingFeb 25, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NkdAMgNZ,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-25T13:51:24.974+0000)

i'm sorry holy shit i didn't even realise how bad your argument was

you think that AP kai'sai can be compared to AP twitch? wow, just wow i don't even need to talk, go read kai'sai's kit SHE WAS LITERALLY MADE TO WORK WITH AP ROFL, she has so much ap ratios,, she has an upgrade on her spell depending on how much ap she has [zombie-brand-facepalm]

You're not following your own arguments through to their conclusion. Instead, you're making claims of the nature "Lying to the right person means it isn't a lie", that irrelevant minutiae of circumstance negates the rules.

You have already admitted that you have misrepresented what imaqtpie has said for your claims and you do not understand that a build not performing does not mean other items are too strong.

If ratios are too weak to support building around a stat that is an issue with the champion.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201821 votes

Qtpie intended to show that AP items are worse than Crit items **on kai'sa **due to the cost All i did was showing that this represents a deeper problem in league where marksmen have cheaper items than everyone but scale into late game

you started to compare kai'sa to twitch, and ap ashe and god helps us but if you fail to understand that ratios are not a problem with kai'sa because she deals more damage with the ap build, but the problem lies in the fact that she will roflstomp a game with cheaper and be more reliable items with less gold investment , then it's not my issue

i did not missrepresent anything, qtpie's intention was not to show that marksmen's items are a problem gold wise, but HE DID IT nevertheless because the situation he described perfectly shows this issue

Pika FoxFeb 25, 20182 votes

That makes literally no sense. If i had an AD build of BT, IE, ER, TF, LW, then that is way too much gold. The point he was making is that the gold budget of the build that chat was giving him was unrealistic for the game.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NkdAMgNZ,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2018-02-25T16:24:45.538+0000)

The point he was making is that the gold budget of the build that chat was giving him was unrealistic for the game.

and that the normal build (GA double zeal IE LW item boots) has a better gold budget for similar damage

Pika FoxFeb 25, 20182 votes

No, not even remotely. Its that it has a realistic gold budget and is more overall useful than trying to go the other build, which might have far more damage but doesnt matter if you cant build everything.

He said the other build was terrible, not that non zeal builds in general would be terrible. I gave you the AD equivalent. All champs build high cost items and mid cost items.

SlythionFeb 25, 20187 votes

It actually didn't have "far more damage", but alright

besides, he never said the ap build was terrible in terms of damage, he said it in comparison to the ad build because of 1 reason and 1 reason alone: the ad build is wayyyy cheaper for very similar results

Pika FoxFeb 26, 20181 votes

500+ more DPS is "far more damage". 15-1600 -> 2-2200 dps is a lot.

And he used a standard AD build vs some random ass AP build chat told him, not a proper AP/Hybrid build.

We later found out that BotRK is a terrible testing item on training dummies because they have 10k+ HP, making both tests fairly invalid for real DPS testing.

SlythionFeb 26, 20183 votes

I should probably rewatch the video to double check, but my physics hw is due tonight am I'm not that much of a procrastinator.

With that being said, wasn't there only a single instance when the dps difference was that drastic? That was when he decided to auto the dummies down to 1 health rather than stopping after the combo, right? If so, if you need to do 10k damage for the dps to be different by 500 then it's not really a fair statement to make, is it?

But anyways, that part of the argument is really irrelevant. QT was still making a point in saying that the AP build was trash because of how expensive it was, a problem that AD builds almost never have unless you're some off-brand juggernaut/diver building the select few 3000k+ items for that.

Pika FoxFeb 26, 20181 votes

AP builds dont have that problem either. He said that build that chat suggested was trash, not that it was the only AP build in the game.

SlythionFeb 26, 20182 votes

What kind of AP build do you think would work on Kai'Sai then? It wasn't just the chat's build that was "trash" (because it was just simply expensive), I don't think QT saw a functional ap build outside of that anyways.

SwarovskoFeb 25, 20189 votes

They will eventually increase the cost of zeal items from 2600 to 2700 lmao I beg my leg on that

Daddy AntsFeb 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

>implying you aren't building hybrid onhit Kai'Sa with Hurricane and Wit's End

But yeah, as I've said, I kinda just want LW upgrades to go to 3000 gold and ADC items lose power (rather than increase in cost).

Cost 2700 -> 2900

Armor Pen 35% -> 45%

no to toxicFeb 25, 20187 votes

Comparing a meme build where people go item 3124 item 3089 item 3153 item 3146 too one that builds standart crit. The 4 most expensive items in the game to crit. I know that your tactic is too provide no context and just say " muh adc too strong cause (literally any reason) Reeeeeeeeeeeee". I bet you think 30% attackspeed has the same value as 80 ad.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201812 votes

your incredible inteligence that surpasses the entire world failed to realise that i'm comparing a standart crit build to every item in the game

no to toxicFeb 25, 20184 votes

Okay let´s look at the standard crit build item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3036 Very solid very cheap items wich synergize with each other and get better the more of them you have

Now lets look at the "standard" tank build item 3075 item 3143 item 3065 item 3800 also very nice items wich don´t synergyze with each other but all have powerful passives and don´t ever go over the 3000 gold cap

Now bruisers item 3071 item 3078 item 3053 item 3742 Very powerfull items wich exchange being some of the highest damage dealing items in the game for a high price and great build paths wich will allow even the behind players to slowly build up

mages: item 3135 item 3152 item 3151 item 3157 items wich are there to make your spells better then they are. 2 of those items have some of the worst buildpaths in the game but change it for having passives wich greatly increase the damage output of the mage who has them

Wanna know the difference between all these items and the standard crit build? Ever single one of them starts being good the second you bought them. Crit doesn´t start being good the second you bought you first item. It only starts being good once you have 2 items. Your trifoce doesn´t need other items to be good. Your zhonyas doesn´t need other items to be good. Your randuins doesn´t need anything more then a crit user on the enemy team to be good. Let´s also not forget how every single one of these items have passives wich give you utility or more damage. Crit gives you only damage. Every single crit item is purely for the purpose of dealing damage. So quit talking shit all day about how they are far too expensive to some meme Ap Darius build you are butthurt about not working as a adc replacement. I bet you think item 3036 is the reason your 0 tank items Zed got killed by a Caitlyn who got peeled. Like seriously stop talking and quit making yourself look like the fool. Even if it probably is in your peoples blood to do that