Sona can be very annoying when she is able to spam all her abilities and seemingly never run dry on mana. So why not add in a mechanic where after 3 abilities every additional ability costs 20 or so mana more? This would be a way to nerf her ARAM performance to an extent. Her costs could be reduced to compensate the early game too.
BeatzBoyFTW5 votesHer W costs 80 mana & E costs 65 mana at Level 1. Those are NOWHERE near "cheap" to use. Healing effects were significantly reduced down in ARAM compared to SR, if you forgot.
JavelinJoe1 votesTrue, in ARAM healing is reduced. And I would not be opposed to cheapening her mana costs to compensate her for her early game costs. ARAM also does not reduce shielding I believe. And she can shield her entire team every few seconds.
BeatzBoyFTW3 votesARAM also does not reduce shielding I believe. And she can shield her entire team every few seconds.
And you literally just completely ignored about the expensive mana usage of her W & E I just said.....
JavelinJoe1 votesDid I ever say anything about her individual abilities specifically in the post? No, I did not. I said all her abilities. Meaning her Q,W,E, and R are already included.
BeatzBoyFTW3 votesSo technically, my point still stands, and you're saying that I should factor in Q & R mana costs as well.
You're making my point a lot stronger.
sheldonbunny2 votesTrue, in ARAM healing is reduced. And I would not be opposed to cheapening her mana costs to compensate her for her early game costs. ARAM also does not reduce shielding I believe. And she can shield her entire team every few seconds.
The point is Sona is not some mythical unkillable beast. She's easily dealt with. It's about knowing when and how to confront her. She goes utility build, she has no damage, she goes AP build, she's a glass cannon that falls apart when you're in her face. Plus it's the nature of arams. You will not always get an optimal team.
I've had games against 3 healers, including a Soraka and Sona. Now that's difficulty, and we ended up winning that one.
Sure, but after 20-30 minutes, do you even notice you have mana any more, because I never do?
Depends on how you build her. I'm a very aggressive Sona, so i've run dry with only morello's and lich for mana items, but I also routinely die far less than most who play arams.
Buildermann 134 votesWhaddaya mean, never run dry on mana? I am almost always borderline oom when teamfights happen until after 25-30 minutes
JavelinJoe1 votesSure, but after 20-30 minutes, do you even notice you have mana any more, because I never do?
Truly Prideful4 votesDo any champions notice they have mana anymore after 30 minutes these days?
JavelinJoe1 votesDepends on the champion. 
for example.
Doozku3 votesNever run out of mana on Karthus past 30 minutes. In fact, you rarely ever run out of mana if you manage your E properly and land last hits.
Darkdemon6534 votesMana costs should never increase.
JavelinJoe1 votes
and 
ults do
sheldonbunny3 votesFor someone with a mastery 5 on Sona, you seem to lack a great deal of insight on her in general. She constantly runs out of mana, especially without two mana items present. I intentionally always run clarity on her in arams for this very reason, especially for early game. On top of what the above poster already pointed out, that all healing is reduced in that game mode.
JavelinJoe1 votesI never actually said it was for her heal specifically. I believe her kit being spamable at mid-late game is way to good in fights since it effects her entire team. She can both shield and increase the damage for her entire team and speed them up. 3 of the best things to have in a fight she can spam for her team. Also, she currently is in the top 3 on the leader boards for win rate for Ranked SR at the Plat+ levels, #1 for ARAM, and #1 for normals SR.
sheldonbunny2 votesI never actually said it was for her heal specifically. I believe her kit being spamable at mid-late game is way to good in fights since it effects her entire team. She can both shield and increase the damage for her entire team and speed them up. 3 of the best things to have in a fight she can spam for her team. Also, she currently is in the top 3 on the leader boards for win rate for Ranked SR at the Plat+ levels, #1 for ARAM, and #1 for normals SR.
I'm fully aware of all that. As said, she is still able to be dealt with. Your topic is about ARAMs specifically, or that is how you've phrased your original post. Most people honestly just do not know how to deal with her in arams, or lack the right comp to do so. The first can be learned, the second is up to RNG Jesus.
JavelinJoe1 votesI was speaking more in a general sense, but I also do think ARAM is defiantly an issue with her. But I can see the confusion.
sheldonbunny1 votesI was speaking more in a general sense, but I also do think ARAM is defiantly an issue with her. But I can see the confusion.
Not so much confusion as you not clearly defining your premise. But now that's been sorted.
She's been neutered quite well early game on Summoner's Rift. As previously stated, until 2 mana items in she severely has to budget her use of skills. In a prolonged stay on the map without basing, she will be running low if there are skirmishes to outright full team fights. She is not an endless mana well. She has been continually neutered early game as the mana regen on the 
line of items. Recall it used to have 150% on completion, now both only have 50%. It's felt extremely by a champion like Sona who is meant to spam spells.
JavelinJoe1 votesI meant that I worded it poorly. The part about ARAM was supposed to be taken as more of a side note, not the main reason.
sheldonbunny2 votesI meant that I worded it poorly. The part about ARAM was supposed to be taken as more of a side note, not the main reason.
There was an entire paragraph after that one sentence that was far more important to reply to.
rtbf2216514123 votesI was speaking more in a general sense, but I also do think ARAM is defiantly an issue with her. But I can see the confusion.
I really don't see an issue with her in Aram. I mean, even with Ardent, you have:
tools to deal with her.
OnlyYouCanHearMe2 votesAs a Sona main, one-tricking her for most of last season, this is not something I would find necessary. The mana regen hit on the spellthief's items have already hit her pretty hard. A decrease of 25% mana regen might not seem like a big deal, but if you aren't building her for utility you will lack the necessary mana regen to sustain the heals/shields that your team demands. The rework to her kit giving her additional cdr to her basic abilities makes it incredibly tempting to spam the abilities, but the mana cost on her W makes it rather impractical to do so on cooldown without building a larger mana pool.
Given the random nature of ARAM in general, and the fact that rank/status is not conferred based upon performance in those matches, it's probably not the best idea to try and balance a champion based upon their strength on that map. There are some champions that will always be stronger on certain maps, and some that will always be weaker. No one would suggest nerfing Katarina because of how strong she is on Hexakill, and it's much the same principle with Sona on ARAM.
JavelinJoe1 votesIf she was hit so hard, shouldn't we have seen a drop in her win rate? She still has one of the highest win rates in the game post mana regen item changes
sheldonbunny2 votesAs a Sona main, one-tricking her for most of last season, this is not something I would find necessary. The mana regen hit on the spellthief's items have already hit her pretty hard. A decrease of 25% mana regen might not seem like a big deal, but if you aren't building her for utility you will lack the necessary mana regen to sustain the heals/shields that your team demands. The rework to her kit giving her additional cdr to her basic abilities makes it incredibly tempting to spam the abilities, but the mana cost on her W makes it rather impractical to do so on cooldown without building a larger mana pool.
Given the random nature of ARAM in general, and the fact that rank/status is not conferred based upon performance in those matches, it's probably not the best idea to try and balance a champion based upon their strength on that map. There are some champions that will always be stronger on certain maps, and some that will always be weaker. No one would suggest nerfing Katarina because of how strong she is on Hexakill, and it's much the same principle with Sona on ARAM.
It depends on elo honestly. In low elo, aggressive Sona excels and can outright carry a team, if not do most damage in the game. It's about knowing when and how to apply pressure with her. Utility Sona works fine, but it loses out on so much of her potential in a lower elo where most don't know how to deal with her.
If she was hit so hard, shouldn't we have seen a drop in her win rate? She still has one of the highest win rates in the game post mana regen item changes
She did have a drop in win rate. Recall she's had her kit reworked multiple times. This last time they simply overtuned her to where they had to nerf her hard. Additionally recall the winrates are due to experienced Sona/support mains, not casual players or people who play her occasionally. You also would need to factor in how many games are solo versus playing with others, or a full team. These little nuances matter a great deal.
OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votesI'm not a big fan of full utility Sona. In fact, I despise it. I don't play ranked much at all, but the average mmr of the normals I play changed drastically with the soft reset on rank at the end of last season, and I've had to change up my builds a bit more than I like to compensate for that. Man I miss the good old season 3 Sona days.
sheldonbunny2 votesI'm not a big fan of full utility Sona. In fact, I despise it. I don't play ranked much at all, but the average mmr of the normals I play changed drastically with the soft reset on rank at the end of last season, and I've had to change up my builds a bit more than I like to compensate for that. Man I miss the good old season 3 Sona days.
I'm finally getting around to finalizing my new build on AP Sona support and it's still running around the core: 
. Situationally i'd add in either or 
depending on the opposing team, how the game is going etc. She's most definitely feeling these support item changes over other supports. Zyra still is quite manageable early game in lane by comparison. Still need to go through my entire support roster and tweak all builds to these changes.
OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votesI'm a huge fan of Luden's+Lich if my team is in a position that I can get away with it. Though I do tend to complete the Frost Queen's Claim for the pick potential. I love being able to run people down, but I don't generally want to use my power chord to keep them slowed.
And my friends make fun of me because of how much I hate Redemption (think Gross Gore levels of RAWR when they suggest I build it). I just do not like that item on Sona. Sure, the Forbidden Idol passive is nice, and it has the ability to be very strong, but it really feels like it's almost a trap on her. Pre-nerf to it, yes, it was definitely a must have item, and it was worth sacrificing the item slot for it. But since then, it's just not one that I like building.
sheldonbunny2 votesI'm a huge fan of Luden's+Lich if my team is in a position that I can get away with it. Though I do tend to complete the Frost Queen's Claim for the pick potential. I love being able to run people down, but I don't generally want to use my power chord to keep them slowed.
And my friends make fun of me because of how much I hate Redemption (think Gross Gore levels of RAWR when they suggest I build it). I just do not like that item on Sona. Sure, the Forbidden Idol passive is nice, and it has the ability to be very strong, but it really feels like it's almost a trap on her. Pre-nerf to it, yes, it was definitely a must have item, and it was worth sacrificing the item slot for it. But since then, it's just not one that I like building.
Considering the majority of this year i've been playing Normals or ARAMs as Sona, i'm always in a position to build the Lich/Luden combo. But then again, aggressive playstyle is just in my blood. I'm that pitbull Sona that no one expects in lane that chases tank supports under tower, etc. lol.
Your feelings on Redemption are my feelings on the original support items, especially FQC. I refuse to buy them. Slot inefficiency I just can not abide, and the Eye line is just so good. If I need to rely on spooky ghosts to get ahead then i'm honestly doing something very wrong. I broke myself of that crutch years ago and never looked back. You'll note a great deal if not majority of higher elo supports are using the original line less and less.
http://na.op.gg/champion/sona/statistics/support
http://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support?
And I wouldn't be calling redemption necessary. So far my games have only gone far enough that i've build 
and upon a few occasions where the pen was needed 
. It's more theorycrafting for myself at the moment on what I want that last item to be. Considering mana has been my only issue it was deciding between high mana items such as or 
.
OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votesLOL! Sounds like you would be hilarious to play with! I love seeing a nice aggro Sona. Back in seasons 3-4, when you could get away with relying a bit more on her base values and didn't need to lean so heavily on the items, I would even periodically throw in a Warmog's/Randuin's. It was fun being the front line.
And yeah, I've watched the final builds shift since the items were released and noticed that as well. I can see the benefit behind having Eye instead, and it certainly is nice to have the extra slot open. Especially when you need that extra control ward mid game for a baron/dragon fight. But I'm a bit too attached to the spooky ghosts and ruby sighstone to build Eye more than 1 game in 20. I could probably be convinced to let the ghosties go, but as I don't build many health items, ruby is one of my main sources.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the "new" Abyssal?
sheldonbunny1 votesLOL! Sounds like you would be hilarious to play with! I love seeing a nice aggro Sona. Back in seasons 3-4, when you could get away with relying a bit more on her base values and didn't need to lean so heavily on the items, I would even periodically throw in a Warmog's/Randuin's. It was fun being the front line.
And yeah, I've watched the final builds shift since the items were released and noticed that as well. I can see the benefit behind having Eye instead, and it certainly is nice to have the extra slot open. Especially when you need that extra control ward mid game for a baron/dragon fight. But I'm a bit too attached to the spooky ghosts and ruby sighstone to build Eye more than 1 game in 20. I could probably be convinced to let the ghosties go, but as I don't build many health items, ruby is one of my main sources.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the "new" Abyssal?
eh, in my good games I typically go on a murder spree. I'll flash under tower to get kills if need be. XD I used to be a passive support when I started. The moment I realized I could sate my bloodlust and protect my team, I fell madly in love for the role for good.
If Spooky/Ruby is your niche, by all means, go with it. I just constantly am pushing myself past my comfort zone as much as possible. With supports netting the least amount of gold typically, slot/gold efficiency is important. I run 
at start for the same reasons.I do ponder how much enemy vision you allow without a sweeper though. In the best games a team runs two sweepers, support and jungler usually. Blue trinket on either mid or adc, or both. Vision and denial of vision are key, and control wards get costly if you keep buying them, while a sweeper is free, including the fantastic upgrade that lets you move and sweep.
For HP items, it depends if you want utility, or AP. When I want AP, it would be 
or 
. Utility would be 
. Which leads to your question. If you have AP members of your team, and jungle/top aren't tanks that are taking it, it fits nicely on Sona. Would I use it every game? No, it's situational.
The big thing about this game is do not rely on cookie cutter builds. Adapt to the situations at hand. On supports I build utility when need be I will go 
if we need to turtle or if I see opportunity to split. I still laugh at the one game when I was Nami with both items and I took two top towers all the way to inhib because enemy team was too busy team fighting to deal with it. This was before poor zzrot was nerfed so hard, but it's still a great asset for sieging, and keeping pressure off a tower.
A final note here is the higher up in elo you go, the more they know better. For a glass cannon like Sona, it becomes more dangerous. Bronze/Silver you can get away with it. Past that you need a very good team to back you up. In solo queue that's a crapshoot.
OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votesOh, I always get a sweeper. I just keep at least one control ward in my inventory until I'm at full build and no longer have the last slot open; two if we're working on a major objective. They might cost a bit of gold, but I very rarely regret having them on the map.
UnboundHades1 votesin my opinion udyr and sona should have their own resource that would work with their spam. i havent thought of a good one yet tho
JavelinJoe1 votesAgree, maybe energy or something similar to how Vlad works could be interesting
Dàx1 votesAs someone who has achieved M7 with sona I'd like to give my opinion on this.
Sona Starts off with a base mana (Without Runes) of 341 that's not a lot for someone who is Based around mana usage
Lets start with her Q then, It costs 45 Mana at lvl 1 and at max 65, that's not a lot and its a fair value and is super useful if building full AP
Now her W, this damn W, 80 Mana at lvl 1 yes just lvl 1, and it goes to a max of 100 mana, now me as an avid sona player the max amount of mana I have by the end is maybe around 2000-2300 or so maybe a bit more, and if there are a lot of team fight's ill be using this like nobody's business including when I have to use Q and E in the mix, draining me to close to half or more after a team fight or in between a team fight.
Also her E, It has a static cost of 65 which isn't to bad late game but hurts early game and it has a pretty good price nothing to say on this.
And her R cost's 100 mana each time you use it.
Now lets put this together shall we?
in the end you spend about 330 mana using every single ability at Lvl 18, but now most games don't last till you get to lvl 18 so typically you might max Q, but still be missing a point or two on her W and barely anything on her E
So lets take it you max Q, and are missing two points in her W and 3 in her E and have ult.
You use about 320 mana, only 10 less or so then if you were lvl 18
Now with team fights once that W is off cool down you'll probably use it again draining you of 90 mana each time.
This take's a lot and unless sona has a blue buff thrown on her she looses mana and has to re-call quite often, leaving her alone in lane and let her just move around lets her regen her mana and she regen's it relatively quickly.
But even to that in lane alone she might loose over half her mana trying to save her ADC and on top of using her ult wasting around 200 or so mana when you only maybe have 700-860 or so mana is A lot for a sona player.
Thanks for reading, best of luck to you.
~Frost
sheldonbunny3 votesFor some reason your thread we were previously talking is deleted or glitching. To respond to your last comment. (Refesher, it was about building sightstone)
Ah for me depending, if I play Lulu yes but not with sona since I build full AP sona
Incorrect. There is never a reason not to build sightstone on any support, especially Sona when exists. Trust a 4 season long Sona/support main. It is your responsibility to your team to provide the majority of vision control in the game. That means proper warding and sweeping wards. To not do so is simply a disservice to your team, and you are better than that. I know you can do better. :)
I also Ap Sona with as core items. You do not have to sacrifice damage to do your job. Both are very possible.
Elkington VI1 votesUnfortunately, Sona is considered balanced on SR, which means she gets to do whatever the hell she wants on almost any other map. I'm just glad she's not that great on 3v3 (Yasuo and Darius are busy owning the map atm).