Literally every jungler agrees the changes are retarded. Go ask any LCS player or streamer or anyone in Challenger. The only people who think the changes are rational is Riot.
Nin10do001443 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvgm0Z-bWc4 - Stonewall008, Diamond-level Jungler with multiple accounts in Plat-Diamond.
Basically, the nerfs that Riot keeps implementing to the Jungle doesn't hurt the Top-tier Junglers while hurting everyone else much, much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhEF7j4xXw - Foxdrop, another Diamond-level Jungler
Jungle diversity would be so much better if Junglers could just get past their clear easily. Some champions, like Leona, would make great Junglers if they could just get past the brutality of the Jungle.
Dryditch6 votesCan Concur. Leona Ganks are fucking terrifying.
I had a Leona Jungle in one of my games right towards the end of S4. She was EVERYWHERE, and the ganks ended in kills for everyone involved.
GundayMonday6 votesWas nodding my head agreeing with everything... until you said Leona. LOL
xLordZantx12 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvgm0Z-bWc4 - Stonewall008, Diamond-level Jungler with multiple accounts in Plat-Diamond.
Basically, the nerfs that Riot keeps implementing to the Jungle doesn't hurt the Top-tier Junglers while hurting everyone else much, much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhEF7j4xXw - Foxdrop, another Diamond-level Jungler
Jungle diversity would be so much better if Junglers could just get past their clear easily. Some champions, like Leona, would make great Junglers if they could just get past the brutality of the Jungle.
FOR THE LOVE GOD,please leave 
or any other support out of the jungle diversity discussion.I say this with good reason,Riot has a vendetta against any champion that leave their primary lane/preditermined role.Allowing to jungle well is asking her support to get a bonked with nerf bat.
is played as a supp,she got nerfed.
nerfed for going bottom lane as supp.
alistar being played in the jungle he got nerfed.
goes mid lane/top gets the nerf bat.Yes would be a great jungle if she was able to clear with her great CC,but is it worth risking her getting the nerf bat and being cast in the lands of Nerfadia AKA Olafville imo no.(I am really sorry for this ranty post,but please lets talk about actually jungles being able to just "get past the brutality of jungle" before we go risking 's head.
windwolf7771 votesYoutube down for just me somehow at the moment. Just posting to watch later.
Adrian Blackbear2 votesI don't know much about Zyra because I haven't played her in a looooong time, but Annie and Lulu are still very strong in terms of solo lanes AND supporting.
Kitten of Evil1 votesLulu and Zyra were both nerfed a lot because they were played mid (and, in Lulu's case, also top). It's hard for Riot to balance utility mages, it seems.
DeusVult2 votesRiot has a vendetta against any champion that leave their primary lane/preditermined role.
Obviously not 
Kitten of Evil1 votesSilly person, Nidalee's role is whatever lane she wants it to be! That's why she has a Soraka-strength heal WITH an attack steroid, a free and spammable Kassadin ult on her cougar form's W, a Xerath Q as her spear (which costs less mana and hits harder at range), and a free Garen ult on her cougar form's Q.
Blastermine2 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvgm0Z-bWc4 - Stonewall008, Diamond-level Jungler with multiple accounts in Plat-Diamond.
Basically, the nerfs that Riot keeps implementing to the Jungle doesn't hurt the Top-tier Junglers while hurting everyone else much, much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhEF7j4xXw - Foxdrop, another Diamond-level Jungler
Jungle diversity would be so much better if Junglers could just get past their clear easily. Some champions, like Leona, would make great Junglers if they could just get past the brutality of the Jungle.
NO NO NO NO NO. PLS.
Simply put, I spam Leona in Dominion. It's really fun being able to build real items and tank everything. I can even 1v1 some of the squishier champions! But we all know how good Leona's ganks are on Summoner's Rift. In fact, you can jungle her right now, if you want to.
But imagine the jungle was changed in such a way to protect slower clearing junglers from early invades. Then the pros would pick her every game and out do Lee Sin in every way. It would be early S2 Alistar levels of bullshit. This of course would result in swift and crippling nerfs.
So, to all you tank jungler players out there: you should be rejoicing that your mains are considered "unviable". That way, they'll never enter the public eye, become FOTM, and get nerfed.
TL;DR Champs being "viable" in pro play is a really bad thing.
Widder881 votes{quoted} So, to all you tank jungler players out there: you should be rejoicing that your mains are considered "unviable". That way, they'll never enter the public eye, become FOTM, and get nerfed.
TL;DR Champs being "viable" in pro play is a really bad thing.
That is true.
Often some champions are considered weak, because of special reasons. But if the enemy doesn't know the weaknesses, they are actually op. Heimerdinger and Malzahar have the highest win rate btw. No pro player picks them. Normal people should do. But nobody knows.
Byrnes10 votesRemember back when Ezreal was trash? No one used him. He should be removed from the game. What is he even. Pro players didnt use him, and they condemned any idiot that would.
And then a pro player played him. And he became a God.
This is to say, I don't give much of a thought to anything a pro player says - in fact, according to Riot a lot of their balancing and meta-type changes are influenced by pro players and their comments. Chances are we are in this mess currently because of things pro players said to Riot. But that's a discussion for another day.
What I do know, and what we all know, is that the jungle is hell right now. If you are playing anything close to a competitive-type game. you have basically three realistic junglers you can pick or fall instantly behind in every way. But, as far as I can tell, in normal/less stressed play you can basically play anything as a jungler right now - it just won't be God tier. So here's to hoping things get sorted out soon, it's hard to believe the season of diversity is the same season where there are least amount of junglers.
Profirix3 votesThis post right here pretty much sums up my feelings about competitive jungling. If a jungler does not have all 3 of these, they are basically outclassed in every way:
It is for this reason that Vi, Jarvan, Lee, Wukong (not as common but has all of these traits), Pantheon, Reksai (to a lesser extent) are so prevalent. They don't need to build tanky until mid game because their base damage is so high and they pretty much get the kill.
I want to put a special mention in here for Kha'zix because until recently I considered him a top tier jungler. With all of the constant jungle nerfs, the Kha'zix nerfs, and item nerfs, this champion cannot hope to compete with those junglers listed above. His isolation was supposed to be a mechanic for search and destroy. You find the enemy jungler at his buff and you kill him with relative ease. I have tried this now and I hate to say it but without significant item purchases in combination with his evolved Q (and in isolation), Kha'zix is only effective if the enemy makes too many mistakes. As a jungler trying to punish laning opponents early, he cannot be the one to get the ball rolling so to speak as far as ganks are concerned. I feel like this is a pretty huge flaw for an assassin that thrives on very small opportunities. Isolation became this incredibly hard mechanic to use on such a squishy little bug. With today's high mobility, good luck ever catching your target or effecting a play that lets you get in more than 1 isolated Q. What it boils down to is that the trade off of having a high burst damage with isolation is not great enough for how difficult it is to isolate a target. This wouldn't really be such a big problem if he was given very significant bonuses to isolation beginning at level 1.
I wont even get started on jungle tanks. That is a whole different can of worms.
Hermes6 votesI'm starting to think that Riot's balance team has been hijacked, Tea Party-style, by a small but vocal minority of top laners who don't know what a ward is.
Naramiel5 votesI can't help noticing the original thread title actually says "change sin".
Freudian slip? ;-)
Rei Tenshi5 votesStandard Riot response is:
"We have collected tons of data on this matter, and you are wrong. End of story."
RogueWill4 votesViable champon at the moment on Jungle (assuming you have moderate knowledge of jungle)
they are the top tier
Unless you get counterjungle during your first clear you are good to go. Can moderate gank lanes without falling behind (moderate lane presence) high ganking success rate due to heavy CC. After second clear she can finish camps without lowering from 70%hp. Can clear 5 camps on first clear unless enemy jungle interferes.
good sustain with W, after 6 he has an easy time ganking. Good duelist.
Decent sustain, superb ganking success rate and lane presence.
Ok ganks after 6, probably the best clearing time of all the ap junglers and the best sustain (after fid) good duelist to prevent counterjungling.
(I don't know if the patched fixed the monster haunted thing yet) good cleareance, good sustain, good counterjungling presence, can simply throw a spear to enemy lanes and call it a gank.
still do what it does best, invading and lane presence. Due to boxes his sustain is good.
After the rework he went back to average, easy to use and semi good ganks if ult is up. really can't be invaded and has good objective control
If you don't mind his passive been proc by the jungle camps early game he is actually rather the same as last season.
As you can see there are still lots of viable choices as long as you don't try to play the jungle the same as last season.
Biffolo6 votes[{quoted}]
The jungle monsters being rooted? That's intended.
TTUPhoenix1 votes
is also very viable. She's a little limited on her CC, and her tunnels take some getting used to, but she's got good sustain, is great at putting pressure on anywhere on the map, and she has solid damage output and tankiness for ganks and objective fights.
Rinky Dinky9 votesIf your including Volibear, Nautilus and Udyr also need to be included in that.
Where is fiddle sticks?
Where is nunu?
And this one will probably suprise you.... Where is olaf? He is just as viable, if not more so than Diana. (People will disagree with this point just because its olaf. Lets ignore he has an lcs presence right now as a nichepick. Sorry, that is worth something)
SmokingPuffin1 votesLet me second the Brolaf recommendation. He's quite good.
RogueWill2 votesAs I main junglers those are the still one viable from my pool of junglers. I can't tell for sure Naut, Udyr, fiddlesticks or nunu since I don't really play them.
I'm just tired of people complaining just Vi, j4 and lee can be played on the jungle. Sure they have an advantage but if you are a seasoned jungle more choices are also available.
Rinky Dinky4 votesThe problem is, the gap is REALLY high right now.
There is zero reason to pick any of those junglers over the top tier.
This isnt about the meta favoring them anymore, this is about them being the best in all situations and scenarios.
Riot needs to fix the jungle.
Everyone agrees.
RogueWill3 votesI can tell you a few reason.
You go because you need a tank and your team is heavy ad as it is. Since you are the only with decent AP ratios and you are a tank. MR won't be build on the enemy leading you to dish tons of damage with just 
. You still will do the same job as Jarvan.
You go because he is good at one thing and one thing only, ganking. You go with a team full of late game champions and pick xin to snowball lanes and make sure your allies gets to be the monster they are late game. Sure Vi can do the same but she will most likely take the kills for herself since a full tank build won't favor her as much as it will do with xin.
You pick because your team is lacking an assassin. Lee is a skillshot based and Vi doesn't have the burst to kill you fast on a 1v5 scenario, Diana can.
and will actually make vi and J4 useless in the jungle if they counterjungle correctly. Vi is one of those champions that once behind she has a hard time coming back and J4 won't be able to get the items he needs in order to be dangerous.
Sure... on a blind pick the top tier are much safer choices. Sure... The jungle can have a few tweaks so it would be easier to clear but overall Vi and J4 came to top because the other junglers fell, before jungle patch they were down right average, since they had no specialization. On specialization scenarios other junglers still outshine them.
Kitten of Evil1 votesI personally love going Sejuani jungle for just that reason, but I do honestly feel somewhat outclassed by J4 and Vi. They are nearly as tanky as I am, but actually have the potential to deal damage, and each of them has 2 gap closers if you count ult. I have one as Sej. The only reason I play Sej is her teamfight presence, which none of the others can offer... but if my team doesn't make it to late game, it's GG.
RogueWill1 votesgo 
and you actually can burst down the carry (either the ap or adc) and the rest of the team will melt to your AoE
Kitten of Evil1 votesRight, but that's a very late-game and expensive build. I have no problems with Sej's late-game, but I find that lacking the pressure in early and mid-game means that sometimes my team doesn't make it to late game. I can handle one poorly-laning teammate, but that's about it, and sometimes you have two or three feeding lanes. I feel like as Sej I'm constantly running around putting out fires in early game, which slows down my leveling and gold intake.
Here's a good example game: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1728082694/37480176?tab=overview
Bot gives up first blood and a double kill, top dies, mid dies, support dies again... all this within 10 minutes.
RogueWill1 votesexpensive just the second tier to third tier. You start with 
then you go 
then 
then then you grab 
and start finishing items from there. The early guise will give you insane damage early and will make easier for you to grab succesful ganks, even f your teamates are behind.
RisottoNero1 votesHecarim, Amumu and Pantheon do well.
Kitten of Evil1 votesWhen I jungle I actually prefer tank junglers like Sejuani and Nautilus. Problem is, they are SO vulnerable to early counterjungles, because it's hard to survive the first clear with HP and mana. Every change Riot makes to the jungle as a whole is a slight punch in the stomach to all the tank junglers who struggle with that first clear.
Jg item from 350 -> 450? Okay, now I can't get extra pots to help my second clear. Great.
Tier 2 item swap cost added? Okay, now I guess I'm stuck with because that's the only way a tank like me can viably clear early and midgame.
Smite range nerfed? Harder for me to secure objectives now without blowing my one gap-closer. I wasn't using smite to chill enemy champions anyway, so kind of seems like there's no need to reduce the range...
The recent jungle changes have been a farce of misdirected nerfs. If Riot wants to target the God tier junglers, then target them!
RogueWill1 votesI can't speak for naut, but as for Sejuani. If you are blue, start krugs (get a leas and don't smite) then go red buff (smite it) then go dragon crab, then frog (smite) then blue and from there either recall or clear wolves depending on your health. Get and 4x
If you want an early gank, it has to be a lvl 2 gank using your summoner as gap closer (flash or ghost will do the trick) usually mid is a good place.
If you are purple. Then you start frog (smite) blue, dragon crab, wolves recall and then do red side
Rinky Dinky4 votesTheOddOne made me laugh my ass off xD
ImHerVoice4 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhEF7j4xXw
skip to 00:50 LOL that news joke Lost it. So accurate. Riots full of shit.
Moved on to gigantic. Haven't looked back lol
Miku Lv993 votesJungle is so ridiculous now. I can even tell it's unbalanced on my pre-30 account. The bad junglers are just so obviously bad since they have so much trouble even beating the jungle enemies. You're either so obviously going to be so low that their Lee kills your or you just can't gank and your lanes get behind. A lot of the bad junlgers could easily be buffed, too. Especially someone like Evelynn now that DFG is gone.
Mephistophilis3 votesI have more "strategic diversity" options when I'm hungry and I open my half-empty fridge
Widder883 votesLiterally every jungler agrees the changes are retarded. Go ask any LCS player or streamer or anyone in Challenger. The only people who think the changes are rational is Riot.
I think the changes are fine.
Here is why:
Partholonian1 votesAgreed. The changes are steps in the right direction, they might not be big enough steps, but Riot will continue to work on the jungle throughout the season. "Everybody switches to Chilling for free when they want to start ganking" had to go before jungle items could be balanced against each other, and chilling really really REALLY deserved a nerf.
Pika3102 votesSince Fearless has been in charge of the jungle "rework," it was probably him.
Kowe The Ewok2 votesEvery jungle change since preseason was a hit in the face. Reducing it to the lastest patch just doesn't manage to represent how incredibly screwed over a vast amount of junglers were.
Narog1 votes[deleted]
StonePlatypus3 votesI'm a jungle main, and I don't think the changes are retarded. So no, not "literally every jungler" thinks the changes are retarded.
Congrats, you're one of the few people who think the changes aren't horrible.
I main Vi, and quite frankly I can't play her at all in ranked. She is banned or picked so damn much, I have to rub a rabbits foot and hope that I get to use her.
The changes really hurt those junglers that aren't Top tier, and what Riot is saying is the exact opposite of what they are doing and people are getting upset at this.
They make changes that have little effect the the top tier, but really hurt the less meta picks, thus making it a less diverse jungle and giving less options in how you play the game.
Switching smites was a great way to offer choices in how to play and allowed you to change up your style OR have some sustain and be viable.
As a Vi main I could take Trail Blazer and take a level 3 dragon real quick, or farm even faster to get to 6. Sometimes I'd take Poachers Smite and do a bit of counter jungling in the early game, but then switch out for a Chilling Smite to help chase down people, or realize I need the vision with Dueling Smite. Now with a gold cost to switch Smites you give a poverty level jungler an extra tax. Is this Republican Land or something?
There are a ton of ways to fix this, and yet they chose to go in the exact opposite direction. You know what might help, a buff to the tank jungle item, I don't play many jungle tanks, but if I did I wouldn't (95% of the time) buy the waste of an item. +500 hp and some tenacity? Let's say im Mao, I rather just get some AP and get my tenacity and hp with my other 5 items.
Out of all the jungling items the Tank one is absolutely useless.
What they could do to fix this is to lower the cost of machete so they could get some more health pots. As Vi I certainly don't need more than 2 to stay fairly healthy, but others due, and by denying them that they tell players "We don't want you playing this character in the jungle, go back to top/mid/bot where you belong".
Season 4 I saw lots of junglers of all shapes and sizes, some more viable than others.
In Season 5 I have seen less and less variety, to the point I can't play Vi without her getting banned and if not banned then picked.
ks9161 votesAs I a fellow vi main I feel your suffering (been playing her since her release), she's either picked very early on or banned in ranked I feel this new patch will make it even worse.
Commando Yi1 votesthe guy probably got ganked and it ruined his day so he decided to ruin the game for junglers everywhere
1CalledMIA1 votesNo 
love?
He has good clear past the first couple camps, good sustain with Q+W, his ganks are rather lackluster but he's a beast split pusher and tank killer with his ult.
Commando Yi4 votesNo
He has good clear past the first couple camps, good sustain with Q+W, his ganks are rather lackluster but he's a beast split pusher and tank killer with his ult.
he also completely sucks in league of high mobility
Kitten of Evil1 votesGod forbid a 
even look at him.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesYeah, a detailed explanation from Riot for this t2 items change is required.
Mad Cheshire1 votesI do not understand why you should pay for changing jungle items at early state.
Big thing here was, if your jungle is slow farmer at low levels, or it has low dmg, for example tanks jungles.
You could take and use it to keep up with higher tier junglers, who can manage the jungle easily.
Basicly the negative side of jungling with tankish or "slow starting" jungler, was that you couldn't have 
at the early game.
But you could change it at somepoint, before the big item.
Now what happens, is "second tier/ slower jungles" as stuck with at the end game, given anyone else more advantage agaist them.
We really want diversity at jungle and lots of opportunities in champ select. Not just "Play lee sin or jarvan."
Partholonian1 votesI already posted this at greater length elsewhere, but the fact that everyone switched to the same item was exactly the problem. Different junglers should want to take and keep different items, that's the only way to keep it from being "the 2-3 best at exploiting the OP jungle item are the 2-3 everyone wants to play".
Switching had to go because switching to the OP gank item was too forced. (Also, for the same reason, the OP gank item had to be nerfed, which it was.)
FirstSergeantBim1 votesYou know, I see so many threads qq'ing about the new jungle that I thought I would give my two cents. I have been jungling since Season 3 and I honestly couldn't be happier with the new changes. Based on my experience prior to Season 5, I really feel like the jungle is a more dynamic environment, it's easier to use and it has a bigger impact on each match, not only that, but I think there are MORE choices and there is MORE diversity than ever before.
It is obvious there will be a select number of champions that do better than others in SoloQ, but how is that different than any other role in the game. These champions (and there are a lot of them) are better than others because their kit brings universal strength to a team composition, additionally, there are champions who can bring a unique dynamic to the jungle that may not contribute as heavily to the current meta. That is working as intended and makes complete sense.
Another issue I have is that I really wonder if people actually know how to use the jungle now. It is a fair bit more complicated with the stronger jungle monsters, but the Smite Buffs give you so much more power to clear and sustain in the jungle. Each time I see one of these threads, I question whether or not these players are properly utilizing the jungle structure Riot has laid out because I have absolutely no problem clearing with nearly any champion w/o a leash, it's all about your masteries, runes and smite decisions.
There are so many troll threads about how Jarvan, Vi and Lee Sin are the only viable junglers, but that is simply not true. How is Nunu never mentioned? He's the quintessential jungler and is probably THE safest jungle pick in the game right now because he will remain relevant throughout the entire game and can clear like no one else. The fact so many dismiss him should be evidence of their ignorance.
I think the jungle's fine. It's just a trip for those of you who can't think outside of the box.
