We should revert cleaver to season 5 worlds where it had way less AD but more health.

Pyrithegethon·May 29, 2016·48 votes·1,485 views

22 Comments

Darth StepVaderMay 29, 201610 votes

Well, i faced a lucian and a kindred with item 3071 item 3053 item 3156 ,an ezreal with item 3025 in their builds. They were impossible to kill due to the tankiness they recieved. I guess the juggernaut items kinda backfired on the juggernauts the way i see it.

CeexSettMay 29, 20164 votes

The item 3053 and item 3156 shields don't stack, so that is a huge loss of gold value. item 3139 or even item 3102 would have been better imo,

Darth StepVaderMay 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The and shields don't stack, so that is a huge loss of gold value. or even would have been better imo,

The shields may not stack, but maw's passive is still better than whatever the nerfed active of mercurial offers. On top of that, when being full build with an immense excess of gold, you really dont care about gold value. What matters is surving those tough late game, full build teamfights and beating the enemy team.

CeexSettMay 29, 20163 votes

If you want to survive late game close teamfights a complete CC removal or a spell invlunerability will do more than a 500 hp shield or 10% lifesteal.

Mandang0May 29, 20162 votes

Honestly I don't think Riot's going to be able to figure this one out without some hamfisted "melee only" item restriction. Juggernauts are apparently reliant on overstatted items to compete with more-mobile alternatives, and these over-statted items are going to be abused by other classes (if not ADC, tanks and bruisers).

MLDzXnRRRMay 29, 20163 votes

I don't where is the problem in having diverse itemisation? If some champion is too strong, you can nerf him, not the items. Some champs get nerfed, then the item nerfed too = crap

WoonStruckMay 29, 20163 votes

The problem here is that if they nerf the ADCs using the cleaver, youmuu's, duskblade build, they're then forced to use that build to retain decent power.

Idc how strong Lucian is. I want ADCs to typically use crit itemization.

They just need to weaken crit itemization so that more than just tanks are viable. That way tank counters can be played again without dying in .25 seconds during teamfights, and crit builds become optimal again, as they should be. Alongside that, tanks are likely to get nerfed as well.

Mandang0May 29, 20161 votes

Yea, I think itemization nerfs should be a last resort due to the large collateral damage they cause.

Additionally, if you nerf such that you end up at one class (ADC) all having the same build, you're never going to see good champ diversity in that role, only those champs who use that build best.

That said, I doubt Riot'll ever figure out champ balance, so I'm hoping they nerf items I guess.

Only Play DariusMay 29, 20163 votes

Well they wanted it to be the centerpiece item for juggernauts Darius Garen Illaoi who can rely on it as their main or sole damage item and get their HP from elsewhere.

ZephyrDrakeMay 29, 20163 votes

Cleaver has never been Juggernaut item, it's been an item for divers and light fighters for a long time so no idea where people have gotten that Cleaver is now all of a sudden a Juggernaut item

Autrah FangMay 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Cleaver has never been Juggernaut item, it's been an item for divers and light fighters for a long time so no idea where people have gotten that Cleaver is now all of a sudden a Juggernaut item

i guess they got that idea from the fact that (almost?) every juggernaut bought it when the health value on it was higher :/

i'm not saying i myself had that idea, but that's what i imagine their reasoning is.

Critmaster GarenMay 29, 20162 votes

id be fine with that.

Kuroi86May 29, 20162 votes

HM, actually not that bad in stats. Only 10 different from it's lowest point. Don't know if any real change is necessary.

ErockandrollMay 29, 20161 votes

That could revert the problem that nerf tried to fix. Unless your pretty certain that Juggernauts are not going to find their way back into the meta.

RoMzMay 29, 20161 votes

Nah we should revert it to pre-season 3 cleaver

My Waifu VanillaMay 29, 20161 votes

Graves Darius Illaoi Pantheon Riven Urgot Varus Talon Rengar Zed - yes please

Very Hard EngageMay 29, 20161 votes

the problem is juggernauts have too much reliance on items, and less on their innate kit.

so they only do well if their items are strong, and they do very poorly when their items are weak.

the problem with them having strong items is they're not mandated to the class, so once certain items get too strong, metagolems form where you just have to buy them items regardless of champion choice or else you're screwed to someone who does build those items.

and we all know how mirror builds work, like irelia vs jax, triforce + bork builds, if one gets ahead, its a snowball, you've won the lane already and the other will never be as strong as you are.

My Waifu VanillaMay 29, 20161 votes

Also, a good amount of champions are so blatantly underpowered they HAVE to rely on "OP" items. Look at Gnar who LOVED Black Cleaver, but now that he and the item have been shifted so far he is in an almost unplayable state (barely scratches anyone top lane in mini and HAS to build squishy to be relevant with the high AD BC and stuff like Frozen Mallet).

SpukyMay 29, 20161 votes

I started playing in Season 5 and thought the World's patch was the best and most diverse patch to date.

Toplane FencerMay 29, 20161 votes

No, please don't. Fiora really needs cleaver the way it is right now. Just nerf Lucian and maybe ez instead.

AckelopeMay 30, 20161 votes

ez isn't even building cleaver very frequently, so i don't think nerfing him for the sake of cleaver would be very effective. he's currently sitting at around a 49% winrate, even for people with 125+ games on him, though he does also maintain a 30% playrate. a nerf might not be out of question

TotalJerkMay 29, 20161 votes

IMO it isn't even just ADCs that are the problem, the item is out of line on Assassins and any champion that rapidly applies stacks or is immobile. The item is just too good at everything.