Can we make assassins AFRAID of tanks again?

DiamondLeonis·Jul 27, 2016·101 votes·5,997 views

I thought the original design that Assassins could not successfully attack and destroy tanks in League. However this simply is not the case anymore. Sure its harder, but with all the new damage items and damage creep in the game, an assassin can easily 1v1 and kill a tank. This is really disturbing to watch and really highlights the problems with the game at the moment.

Tanks are supposed to be countered by sustained damage like ADC's (less said about , swatter of squishies and tanks alike, the better) but it seems now that assassins are not even afraid of tanks anymore. , and can capitalise on a tank's lack of damage and just burst them down like they were a normal squishy.

I want to go back to a season where League was actually about THINKING how to engage your opponent correctly, thinking about their strengths and weaknesses and not the reaction "fighting-game" style "beat-em-up", its become recently. League should not be a reaction test, it should be about balanced, strategic picks and objective control.

282 Comments

RalanrJul 27, 201641 votes

%hp damage may have something to do with that on assassins. Namely Fizz.

digimonteamjacobJul 27, 201631 votes

And the skills that shred 50% of armor. Cough yasuo cough.

Zero Skill TankJul 27, 201632 votes

Yasuo is, generally speaking, a skirmisher, beating up a tank is totally ok for him.

What's not OK for a skirmisher is him jumping on your carries from 1200 units because someone burped at them.

SnugglePuggle94Jul 27, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is, generally speaking, a skirmisher, beating up a tank is totally ok for him.

Which I think he really shouldn't be doing that. I lost a ranked game yesterday due to a Yasuo beating up a fucking Fiora. The Fiora went 0-4 then rage quit. Seriously, man, that's not cool. Diana is similar to him in fact that she's a fighter- do you see her top lane beating up juggernauts and tanks? No. Honestly he should be like her to where he's good at killing mages, assassins and what not but not tanky top laners.

RalanrJul 27, 201630 votes

The thing is, Yasuo is at heart a sustained damage dealer, which naturally counters tanks.

The problem imo is crit. Crit damage feels like burst damage, and when a marksman or someone like Yasuo build crit, their damage turns into a form of sustained burst. Which kinda fucks everyone over.

There are very few sustain damage champions that don't build crit, and most of those are AP sustain damage like Sol.

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 201612 votes

Basically, this guy MasterYi

RalanrJul 27, 201610 votes

Cept he ends up building crit because every attack speed item beyond two give crit now.

AstôlfoJul 27, 201626 votes

Except assassins can't burst tanks. Unless they're extremely ridiculously fed, but that's besides the point.

EvewynnJul 27, 201612 votes

You're right. And a lot of them build a little lifesteal (hydra, death's dance, BT) so they can just sustain against tanks and win the fight. Assassins being able to kill tanks is nothing new, but being able to burst them alone is just not true unless the level difference is staggering.

Or if it's a 3v1 or something, in which case the tank got caught out and deserves to die anyways.

AstôlfoJul 27, 20165 votes

Yeah.

Tanks aren't meant to do damage. They're meant to provide CC and just absorb the damage meant for their carries. Hence, if an assassin who's meant to do damage keeps smacking away at the tank, given enough time, they will eventually kill the tank. But if the tank's team aren't dimwits, they'd be there with the tank which would discourage the assassin from spending like 30s trying to kill the tank.

The whole point of tanks being bad for assassins isn't because they're invulnerable. It's because they're so bulky and have lots of CC it's not worth focusing them in the first place usually. Also, the tank's very presence discourages focusing the carry/carries because if the assassin tries, the tank and whoever else will (assuming they're smart) lock down said assassin with CC and kill them.

People always exaggerate so much.

Voluug13Jul 27, 20165 votes

just absorb the damage meant for their carries.

The problem with this is that this only works well on a PvE game due to threat.

How do you force an enemy to attack you instead of your allies when they are player controlled? CC aside, they could simply ignore you. Tanks that do damage often pay on CC, like Amumu and Malphite.

Also, claiming that ''tanks arent supposed to deal damage'' is a very mistaken asumption, since many tanks Malphite Amumu Shen and the like are know to deal decent amounts of damage, specially Amumu. What made this balanced is that, for actual tanks, building damage items or going for damage attack patterns is a an actual trade-off.

Trade-off that doesnt exist on the worst reverse cases, when champions with ridiculous offensive powers get away with building tank items because lolbasedamages and izi%hpdamages. Ekko Fizz Akali .

HazyCloud7Jul 27, 20162 votes

You can't simply ignore them regardless of damage. Shen will taunt you. Malph will slow you/knock you up, Ammumu will stun you ect...

TyrekGoldenspearJul 27, 201610 votes

I dunno, a lot of assassins fear my full build Garen with the Elixer of Wrath.

Unless I'm mistaking a Juggernaut for a tank again. >_<

RalanrJul 27, 201619 votes

You are, but at least you're aware of it.

TyrekGoldenspearJul 27, 20169 votes

Is Malphite a tank then? If he is I can easily see him laughing as an ad assassin tries to hurt him.

IS3E531E3F964391Jul 27, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Is Malphite a tank then? If he is I can easily see him laughing as an ad assassin tries to hurt him.

not if you're yasuo with a ridiculous amount of bonus armor pen

TyrekGoldenspearJul 27, 20169 votes

Malphite's Guide to beating Yasou.

Step 1. Ult Yasou. Step 2. Have your Yasou ult theirs. Step 3. ??? Step 4. Profit.

sparkytoastJul 27, 201610 votes

Reminds me of my talon vs blitz one for all game.

As talon with item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 item 3812 item 3035 upgrade (forget which one) I could eliminate 3 full tank blitzs before being scared of death. which is kind of ridiculous. As someone who plays mainly assassins/fighters, I agree that damage is a bit on the crazy side.

Slamurai JackJul 27, 20167 votes

Assassins have always been able to 1v1 tanks if given the time to do so. The questions is: Why are you 1v1ing assassins as a tank? Tanks are a threat to assassins in teamfights because of their CC and anti-burst potential, not because they can 1v1 the assassin. If you want to beat the assassin 1v1, then bruisers Shyvana Trundle Irelia Jax DrMundo Darius Garen Poppy Mordekaiser are what you're looking for and always have been. Don't expect to 1v1 Fizz or Zed with Maokai. But Irelia will destroy either of those kids.

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 20166 votes

The thing is those 3 champs listed don't have any issues with tanks because they are bad designs for assassins(namely Fizz Ekko having too much mobility); A more traditional assassin like Kat or Talon would be worried for tanks ccing them out for the team to burst them.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20164 votes

They still are... just real tanks though.

Not shit tanks like Garen Sion Malphite

Assassins fear ACTUAL tanks like Nautilus Leona Alistar

and they also fear some supports like Sona Nami Lulu

RalanrJul 27, 20161 votes

Woah, woah, woah. Buddy, what makes Sion a shit tank to you?

It Hertz When IPJul 27, 20162 votes

Massively telegraphed CC, no defense steroid beside a health stacking mechanic that barely compensates for his shit base stats?

RalanrJul 27, 20164 votes

I don't know, a spammable shield feels like a pretty good defensive ability to have.

And those telegraphed attacks allow his bases to be as high as they are now.

It Hertz When IPJul 27, 20165 votes

Oh I agree on the telegraphing, he gets some good damage output. I'm just answering your question of why he makes a poor tank.

I wouldn't call the shield spammable though. And since a lot of its power budget is tied to the AoE damage from detonating it, it's not even that amazing of a shield.

RalanrJul 27, 20163 votes

It is in very clutched circumstances.

Do people really only want to use his shield offensively? It's great that it can hurt, but it is still a shield.

ModAcademy KaynJul 27, 20164 votes

It's massively telegraphed, but ignoring damage, it serves two purposes. It's meant to disrupt enemies or to punish them for not moving. He has high durations on his stuns and slows when it comes to when they're fully charged, because its punishing them for not getting the F**k out of the way.

Even if they miss, they serve the purpose of them either wasting CC on you, or putting themselves in a less optimal position than before. He's great for peeling for Carries, since he can set a zone of "You no go here", and can provide immediate disruption by point blanking his ult. His slow also shreds armor, so he helps kill tanks or complement burst on a carry.

This may be a rant, but Sion is soooooo much not a shit tank. Sure, he may not have the defensive traits of Malphite, Maokai, or Alistair, but he has the most disruption of a fight, next to Zac of course, that you could want.

(also if you build Titanic Hydra and Righteous Glory, say goodbye to carries if you die)

It Hertz When IPJul 28, 20161 votes

Again, no one is questioning Sion's strength as a JUGGERNAUT, which is exactly what you're describing. He's a great juggernaut. However, as a TANK he is still far inferior to other choices. If an assassin is coming for my ADC, Sion has a snowball's chance in hell of stopping them in time because his CC is very avoidable. Alistair, Leona, Singed, and Maokai all have point and click hard CCs that CAN'T be dodged, Malphite can just ult at the ADC's feet, Tahm Kench can just EAT the ADC and giggle while he runs away... Sion's only choices for hard CC in this scenario are to ult at point blank range, which will barely knock them up, or charge Q and hope the assassin fails to 100-0 the ADC in the time it takes to charge fully. Or, y'know, not step a few steps to the side.

ModAcademy KaynJul 28, 20162 votes

Alistair, Tahm and Leona are support tanks. Their entire job as a tank is to either lock down enemies for the carry, or to babysit the carry. If we compare real tanks, Sion Malphite Nautilus Zac Maokai Nunu , you notice a trend of being able to heavily disrupt a team through starting fights and heavy aoe CC/aoe "ya don't want to be here" zones.

Malphite is great for diving backlines and punishing people who clump, and if he wants to babysit a carry he can. Nautilius isolates and drags back people to start fights, following up with his Ult to knockup anyone who tries to protect the target. Once again, if he wants to babysit a carry, he can. Maokai lowers damage for his entire team, while also locking down individual targets, making him much more support-ish in a way, but he has the choice to use it offensively or defensively.

This brings us back to Sion. He is great to start fights, and is great at locking down targets, but if he wants to babysit a carry, he can. He can stay right near them, ready to point blank his ult at the ready, because even a small knock up, gives enough time for others to follow up.

AND YOU EVEN PROVED MY POINT.

Or, y'know not to step a few steps to the side.

If they are moving out of his Q, it means that they aren't killing people. It means that Sion is ruining their plan, because they HAVE to take a "Few" steps to the side to avoid getting CC'd. Using Zed as an example, he'd either have to walk out of it, or use a shadow to switch out of. If he used his shadow, than he loses out on a lot of damage for assassinating a Carry, because his Shadow is out by you.

You define tanks as "They cc people, so if they can't cc fast, they're bad" and that is not the point. Sion is not about landing CC, he is about disrupting a teamfight just as REAL tanks do, not support tanks who focus on a single person or baby sitting. He can, if he wants, babysit a carry, but that is not where his true strength shines. Naut, Malph, Zac and Sion are about disruption, forcing people to change plans, and just because they don't fit a Tank Support's role, does not mean they're "Shit"

The DeckownerJul 27, 201613 votes

did you just say sion and mlphite, two of the most tanky champions in the game, are not actual tanks?

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NXZ7OrVo,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2016-07-27T17:52:53.067+0000)

did you just say sion and mlphite, two of the most tanky champions in the game, are not actual tanks?

I also said that fighters have always tanked more than tanks. Yes, I did in fact say this.

The DeckownerJul 27, 201612 votes

lol you need to learn the game.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20162 votes

and you need to learn basic math. Until recently only a fighter could survive 20,000 damage during a 1v5 and manage to survive without someone else helping them. Fighters have always possessed the capacity for tanking more damage than actual tanks.

The DeckownerJul 27, 20168 votes

I don't see how a fighter can survive 20000 damage unless they have invulnerability like tryndamere.you just made up random numbers out of where and now you are talking math with me lol.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20162 votes

correct, invulnerability was exclusive to fighters and a few other nontank types until the taric rework

Only fighters could tank that much. I could have said 10,000 or 20,000 it doesn't matter.

They also have the best healing passives/abilities when built for "soaking damage"

fighters have always been able to tank more than tanks

On top of this fighters tend to do a better job getting away with building things like lifesteal or spellvamp or both which sometimes makes it possible for them to again tank tons of damage.

The DeckownerJul 27, 20167 votes

only retards will waste 20000 dmg on a invulnerable target
Tanks have the best shields that scales with ap and hp, while supports have the best healings.
Fighters get blow up when getting focused
building lifestel on fighters are not as efficient as someone like an adc because they don't build as much dmg as adcs so they get much less healing

in conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about and you are Bronze.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NXZ7OrVo,comment-id=00090001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T21:40:04.941+0000)

only retards will waste 20000 dmg on a invulnerable target

irrelevant, were discussing potential extremes. Fighters are able to tank more damage than tanks.

Tanks have the best shields that scales with ap and hp, while supports have the best healings.

fighters are able to tank more damage than tanks

Fighters get blow up when getting focused

fighters are able to tank more damage than tanks

building lifestel on fighters are not as efficient as someone like an adc because they don't build as much dmg as adcs so they get much less healing

fighters are able to tank more damage than tanks

in conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about and you are Bronze.

fighters are able to tank more damage than tanks and you cannot hide from simple math behind a ranked badge you got in a videogame. This isn't a strategy discussion.

The DeckownerJul 27, 20161 votes

[deleted]

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20161 votes

so youre not going to argue you're just going to leave a vague statement that looks like a strawman?

Yes, I will repeat the same thing over and over if all you can do is deflect and evade.

300 armor and 5000 hp is an effective 15000 hp against physical damage divided by 4 that's 3750 physical damage per damage dealer without any penetration. usually people are going to be comboing from around 2000-3000 damage with penetration and/or %hp damage over 3 seconds since were making up some numbers. And then there's still the supports.

The tank will die Tryndamere will last longer regardless of build Kayle will likely last longer if built full tank even yi or fizz will likely last longer just do to damage evasion if we aren't considering CC. This only includes damage that was evaded or prevented because it couldn't be dealt at the moment but this is conditional for some assassin-fighters usually old poppy would ignore a lot of this damage, new poppy could deal a lot of damage with the 300 armor 5000 hp and probably wouldn't be so easy to kill due to the bonus defense she gets.

actually that's a kindof funny one. Poppy literally gets like a permanent Leona or ramus W steroid while being able to deal pretty heavy damage and then she can stop you from engaging her for even longer

bottom line

fighters can tank more damage than tanks, you're not going to spin this. A lot of them are realistically going to last longer in fights when actually focused. Tanks last longer because focusing them is typically not worth it and will screw you over. This isn't the case with most fighters

RalanrJul 27, 20163 votes

Fun tidbit: Poppy is a tank.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Fun tidbit: Poppy is a tank.

poppy is a fighter with a Q that deals up to 14% of the targets hp and a gap closer that allows her to isolate targets in combination with her W which stops others from helping them as quickly and keeps them from escaping so they are partly forced to fight her.

this pattern of isolating and forcing a 1v1 in the middle of a fight is a common pattern in fighter-assassins and champs that were intended to be fighter-assassins (or were just ridiculous and did way too much, still fighters).

Fizz XinZhao JarvanIV LeeSin Poppy

note that these champs tended to or still do forcefully isolate a single target rather than game around and find an opportunity

PermabannedGarenJul 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

poppy is a fighter

Stopped reading.

She's a tank. Literally every single ability she has crowd controls the enemy. She's loaded with utility and tank steroids.

The DeckownerJul 28, 20165 votes

Face palm

How the fuck is this guy so igorant?

By your logic zilean will be the tankiest champion in the game by using chronoshift+zhonyas+GA.

Holy shit what a retard.

CeexSettJul 27, 20161 votes

In what way is Nautilus a better tank than Malphite ? Hello??

That's either super ignorant or super troll.

Slamurai JackJul 27, 20163 votes

{quoted}

In what way is a better tank than ? Hello??

That's either super ignorant or super troll.

I'd argue that Naut has far better continuous contribution to a fight, although Malph has better initiation. In terms of control, Malphite is actually very mediocre, but he makes up for it with godlike initiation and insane durability against physical damage. Nautilus by comparison has endless waves of CC that never really stops until he's killed. You can afford to be near a Malphite when his ult is down. Naut, not so much.

CeexSettJul 27, 20161 votes

A tank isn't defined by its CC, hat is a secondary facility. A tank has ability to tank damage.

And in that department, They tank more or less the same against AP (assuming same items/levels), but Malphite tanks way better against AD, so Malphite is a better tank.

So, by your definiton, a full attack speed Nautilus is still a better tank than a normal build Malphite? Just because he has better CC?

Slamurai JackJul 27, 20164 votes

A tank is defined by how well they can exert control from a frontline position. They are not defined by their ability to take damage, otherwise any champ built tanky could be considered a tank. In order to exert that control, you need to be able to both CC enemies that enter into your zone of control and you need to be able to take punishment. Malphite is very good at taking punishment but he's not very good at controlling enemies; once his ult is down, his only CC is his Q slow which is more of a chasing tool given how it's designed. Nautilus by comparion has spammable a spammable AOE slow, snares on his autoattacks, and his hook in addition to his ult, with his W helping him to stay alive. With that in mind, Nautilus is a better tank; the control he exerts in the frontline while also being hard to kill is unparallelled by pretty much any champion in the game. While Malphite is indeed very tanky, he's more of an initiator that turns into an extremely tanky bruiser after ulting rather than a true tank.

invisiblecat1Jul 27, 20164 votes

item 3147 Remove this assassin item that kills tanks

DKM BismarckJul 28, 20164 votes

I main Talon I promise to you right now that I am indeed still afraid of tanks, and I have been for 3 years now.

ModAcademy KaynJul 27, 20161 votes

In a Void, assassins beat tanks. But that is in a void, where tanks are isolated from their greatest strength: Their Team. Tanks are the most team players you'll find, next to supports, whose job is to throw themselves in to take the damage, so others don't. This is complemented by their CC, as it allows allies to safely attack enemies.

Just because you are a tank, doesn't mean you instawin/can't be killed by assassins. Tanks will always rely on their team more than any class (Non-tank supports are usually backline, protected by tanks) because that is their base design. And in no way in hell, will a tank be bursted unless the assassin is super fed.