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When will it not be toxic to actually have a proper discussion about Lee Sin and what he represents?

DiamondLeonis··120 votes·6,314 views

Seriously Riot, he is out the meta for 5 minutes and you immediately have to buff him to make him a top tier jungler again? Why can nobody even discuss this without a massive array of downvotes which prevents any worthwhile conversation about this champion?

LeeSin has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo. His ultimate is far too high in damage and does additional damage if it hits something else (another one of Riot's favouritism buffs). Why is this champion getting so much special treatment in League?

I seriously would like to know if its me who thinks that Riot gives special treatment to certain champions or if other people have noticed this as well because its getting beyond a joke in my opinion. You might as well reduce the game down to 20+ Champions because thats all you seem to focus on.

LeeSin represents a worrying trend of a company that are too afraid to make meaningful changes to a champion that they know is either toxic/and/or/ broken. They tried to rework Lee Sin but the "rage" of the community stopped them. So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped, nobody else had that liberty.

201 Comments

the weeaboo42 votes

He is probably the Jungler with the largest fan base besides maybe Rengar. He is the poster champ for "that player". You know. The guy that mains Yasuo, Riven, and Lee Sin because they look like they're straight out of a Bruce Lee movie? The one that says "Yasuo, riven, and Lee are super hard to play you need super good mechanics" when in actuality 1 in every 2 players has their exact skill set? Even when you can pretty much land one skillshot then mash your face on the keyboard and get a load of kills to make it look like you're actually good? Yeah that's Lee Sin.

Astôlfo15 votes

I mean, Yasuo/Riven/Lee have a low skillfloor. They're easy to pick up. They're very hard to do actually well on against people who know how to deal with them.

Gary B Enkelis8 votes

Can confirm. I suck at these champions and was able to play them. I lose on them but I can play them.

Eedat41 votes

People are funny. They buffed Lee because he was weak. It wasnt even a huge buff. There are a few reasons why Lee continues to be popular, even when he isnt that good. One point being he is just straight up fun to play. He has a very cohesive kit that feels fun to use. Same thing goes for champs like Lucian who remain popular even when they aren't doing too hot. Second, he is an old champion and has become a comfort pick for a lot of players

I mean any problem you have with Lee is worse with Nidalee, yet nobody seems to have a problem with her. For example:

  • has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo.

Nidalee

Early game pressure:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early game duelist:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early, safe clear:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early game damage:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Counter jungling:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Map mobility:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Poke:

Nidalee > LeeSin

All-in:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Vision:

Nidalee > LeeSin

You name it, Nid does it better. The only real difference being Lee can do some fancy Insec kicks mid-late game. Lee is pretty much a watered down version of Nid at this point. So why do people complain about Lee while simultaneously not give a damn about Nid?

YumaS2Astral6 votes

Also that he is AD so he may be potentially a better option if your team is lacking in physical damage.

That said:

{quoted}

So why do people complain about Lee while simultaneously not give a damn about Nid?

The other guy explained that:

{quoted}

People are still stuck with PTSD from when he was in his prime and dominating. Which is long gone.

Mecha MaIphite7 votes

{quoted}

Also that he is AD so he may be potentially a better option if your team is lacking in physical damage.

I find it much more common to be stuck with too much AD than too much AP.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

Good thing LeeSin does mixed damage because E is magic and scales with 100% of his bonus AD.

Mecha MaIphite4 votes

80% of his damage is physical, a little less than 20% is magical. His E is only a portion of his damage output.

Someone who actually does mixed damage is Shen or KogMaw

Spaceman5pff2 votes

True but that only really matters for Top Lane Lee Sin if your enemy rushes cloth armor. Then you max E for harass (or so i've heard, I don't bother with playing Lee in general, let alone toplane)

Penns34 votes

You name it, Nid does it better

CC? kappa

RainbowIcee3 votes

lee is a lot better at juking, and taking down towers. He also i believe can beat the shit out of nid early game and counter jungle her unless she lands a spear on trap on him which should only happen if he gets caught by surprise.

Requiemsfire3 votes

Lee also has to land his Q to do anything. Nidalee can miss her Q and still make a play without it making her far less punishing as a whole. If Lee misses his Q, he loses a gap closer, execution damage, a huge portion of his flat damage with a fairly significant cooldown at early ranks.

Nidalee's dash is unconditional which imo makes it better. She has an actual heal. In terms of counter jungling if I'm not mistaken Nidalee is still faster in that aspect.

Becomes a Q bot lategame? So what? Those spears don't fall off damage wise, they freaking sting when they land and Nidalee can throw them without fear of being engaged on while some serious damage.

Enloct3 votes

Yeah, Nidalee needs to get fucking gutted.

Astôlfo19 votes

People are still stuck with PTSD from when he was in his prime and dominating. Which is long gone.

DiamondLeonis30 votes

Well explain to me why Riot seem to buff him every chance they get. The last buff was for totally no reason, especially when there are other priorities at the moment. The game has been a lot of fresher recently because of the decline of "favourites" like LeeSin.

Astôlfo8 votes

He's still a favorite and flashy enough to be LCS' posterboy with those insec plays. He's in a bad state at the moment, and Riot wanted him back in LCS after nerfing Gragas/etc.

YumaS2Astral12 votes

{quoted}

He's still a favorite and flashy enough to be LCS' posterboy with those insec plays. He's in a bad state at the moment, and Riot wanted him back in LCS after nerfing Gragas/etc.

Is him really in a bad state? Everytime that I see him he is still a pain in the ass early game that is extremely overbearing and can single-handedly make a team that would lose otherwise, win. Especially because at my elo, there is always the chance of getting those main/OTP Lee Sin players.

Requiemsfire4 votes

Alright alright, it's not that Lee is really bad, but it's like unless you live like Lee sin, study lee sin's movements and breathing patterns 24/7 with non-stop practice to achieve complete enlightenment then you are then people will hate you for picking Lee sin. Lee sin is in a state where the skill floor, and skill ceiling are much higher than the average champion yet his overall performance is rather mediocre because it takes worlds more effort to make Lee perform equally as well as another jungler in the current meta. Some Lee sin mains even quit him specifically because the amount of effort and practice he requires to perform consistently well as a champion vs another champion who is simply a better pick with a much easier to use kit.

Aptest3 votes

yeah, like Rengar and Khazix are more "fresh" than lee.

Dealth19 votes

"Lets have a proper discussion about Lee Sin"

oh, finally, a thread that's not super biased

proceeds to be incredibly biased

sigh

Kyrrion14 votes

Remember when Riot put some pretty big Lee changes on the PBE and then took them down pretty much ASAP due to the backlash?

I bet Riot still remembers.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Too bad riot didn't do it anyway like they have with several other reworks left in the dumpster.

Synnx79 votes

{quoted}

Remember when Riot put some pretty big Lee changes on the PBE and then took them down pretty much ASAP due to the backlash?

I bet Riot still remembers.

And at Veigar . Sorry, changes are already locked. Fuck off riot

YumaS2Astral9 votes

Or Mordekaiser

Even though everyone knew it would be a bad idea and most of the community, and even pro players, were against it

Riot went up with that rework anyway.

Weiner the Pooh2 votes

This is like the third or fourth Morde comment so far, what's with this Morde circle jerk?

kile1472 votes

He is probably one of their biggest failures as a rework. His changes didn't work for him thematically, it gave him an even unhealthier gameplay pattern, and he was way overpowered.

That combined with the massive backlash from the Morde community that was largely ignored makes him a very sore spot for a lot of players. The only part that they didn't mess up with him was his lore, which they were saved from a massive blunder by a community suggestion to change his title from "Lord of Death" to "The Iron Revenant".

BlackEyesBlue13 votes

Lee is one of the best examples of an argument I've made in the past:

"High Skill" - should not be a factor in a champs "power budget"

Lee has one of the games most overloaded kits, and he is not SO difficult that he should be allowed to have crazy stats along side his mobility, sustain AND utility.

Yasuo very much falls into the same category, I'd argue that he's hard to LEARN; but once you understand his in's and outs, he's not really all that hard to play well. Once learned he has a kit that lets him work around virtually any opponent. With no resource beyond VERY short cool downs no less! One tiny shift in meta breaks him, such as the recent tank yas fiasco, and DAMN if I didn't see a lot of mechanically TERRIBLE Yasuo's carry games when the original iteration of "Warlord's Bloodlust" first released with the keystone mastery re-work!

If Evelynn's passive fills enough of her "power budget" to justify nerfing the rest of her kit and stats into the dirt.... And Poppy had to lose a lot of damage AND utility because she wasn't being played "as we intended"... WHY are these two not allowed to be anything short of A-tier!?

YumaS2Astral3 votes

I may be saying some bullshit but it may have to do with the fact that unlike Poppy or Eve, they are considered fun to play, and are popular. Riot knows that if they give the Yorick treatment to Lee and Yasuo, it will be a very, very big shitfest. Not to mention, they tend to sell a lot of skins. And you know what happens when there is money involved into it.

So they try to mantain both of them weak, but not to the point that Yorick used to be.

Voluug134 votes

unlike Poppy or Eve, they are considered fun to play, and are popular.

Fun is relative, and popularity is often controlled and influenciatedby Riot. For example: Old Karma was ''unpopular'' but only because Riot banned her from the game basically.

Limrick6 votes

I find Poppy way more fun than Yasuo, and Riot destroyed her for basically no reason. She was already nerfed into a decent state, but the nerfs kept on coming.

Ralanr2 votes

I don't understand why they took away the AA reset. That only made her feel incredibly clunky.

I'd like to know the reason why they took it, but I fear the reason is, "We're just taking away stuff until we feel her power is fine. We have no idea if her AA reset will help with that but it seems like something we should try removing."

I don't even care about the ranged nerfs (they hurt but I suppose I can adapt). But the removal of the AA reset made her jungle clears much slower. To the point where it feels detrimental to actually play her in the jungle.

And don't tell me, "She's designed only for top" when her champion reveal page literally has a section on her jungling.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-update-poppy-keeper-hammer

"but the tiny tussler is designed to be a powerful roaming jungle in her own right."

So why Riot? Why did you basically destroy her tank jungling?!

Limrick2 votes

I loved Poppy jungle. Like I said, they didn't just nerf her, they pulled an Akali and killed the fluidity.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

Trust me when I tell you that I hate Lee Sin. Like, I really hate Lee Sin.

The reason that Riot balances Lee the way that they do is because when Lee Sin isn't strong it weakens the game's early pressure. Rek'Sai has lost most of her damage and most other AD junglers (except Kha'Zix) don't have Lee's mobility early game to get successful kills off ganks at higher levels.

Nidalee is certainly a strong early jungler as well, but she's AP. You need an AD and an AP of the same threat to be more flexible in your team comp selection.

If Lee Sin isn't strong, then tank junglers become too powerful, and when tank junglers are too powerful, it makes assassins in the mid lane worse, which means that marksmen have no one to kill them and the entire game's ecosystem kind of falls apart.

Lee Sin has to be strong enough to be a threat. As long as Lee is a powerful champion, he artificially lowers the amount of tank junglers in the game, because a tank jungler will be hesitant to blind pick their tank jungler if Lee Sin isn't banned.

That's why Lee has to be relevant in every meta.

SaltyToplaneGoat9 votes

Then... what about nerfing Marksmen instead? They seem to be the root of this entire issue after all.

Snowplosion2 votes

It is much easier to bring one champion into viability rather than bringing ten into nothing.

Adriqnohee5 votes

Easier doesn't mean better.

LatetotheRace6 votes

"So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped" Wish those dickheads had NOT reworked Mordekaiser

JackMcSnipeyz5 votes

Oh boy are we hating on lee sin now? Are we back to that. Throw away your yasuo/ekko hate threads folks, time to bandwagon the latest "toxic" "rito's favorite" "broken" "no counterplay" champ.

theArtifacts5 votes

{quoted}

LeeSin has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo.

Irrelevant. Many champs only have to land one skillshot to do their combo.

I seriously would like to know if its me who thinks that Riot gives special treatment to certain champions or if other people have noticed this as well because its getting beyond a joke in my opinion. You might as well reduce the game down to 20+ Champions because thats all you seem to focus on.

Your opinion. Not fact.

LeeSin represents a worrying trend of a company that are too afraid to make meaningful changes to a champion that they know is either toxic/and/or/ broken. They tried to rework Lee Sin but the "rage" of the community stopped them. So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped, nobody else had that liberty.

Worrying trend? Please bro. Put down the salt.

Marshbouy4 votes

The league community takes too much of riot for granted. they say that they are stone cold and never listen to the community when in reality they do all the time.

Jbels7 votes

{quoted}

The league community takes too much of riot for granted. they say that they are stone cold and never listen to the community when in reality they do all the time.

They sure listened when we yelled, no screamed at them to not do what they did to Mordekaiser

Marshbouy2 votes

You think that's bad? Look at 90% of what blizzard has ever done.

Jbels4 votes

{quoted}

You think that's bad? Look at 90% of what blizzard has ever done.

Hey man, those players didn't want it. They only thought they wanted it

Dengeden4 votes

Just because he got some number buffs after like 6 months of not being played competitively (by people not named Rush) does not show favoritism. A buff does not miraculously push a champion into the meta, Lee Sin's winrate was almost unaffected by getting a little tankier.

It's nice of Riot to give the people who like jumping about with Lee an easier time just like it was nice of them to buff MF. Or to leave Kayle unnerfed despite her consistent 55% winrate.

Nyanza2 votes

LeeSin has too much mobility. He basically has 3 flashes.

GrReaper961 votes

Q, W and?

Hello I am Bird4 votes

summoner 4?

GrReaper961 votes

But what if he goes summoner 6 ?

Weiner the Pooh4 votes

Why would he ever?

SKT T1 Maddog982 votes

Ghost shows true thirst.

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