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When will it not be toxic to actually have a proper discussion about Lee Sin and what he represents?

DiamondLeonis·9/19/2016, 8:14:53 PM·120 votes·6,314 views

Seriously Riot, he is out the meta for 5 minutes and you immediately have to buff him to make him a top tier jungler again? Why can nobody even discuss this without a massive array of downvotes which prevents any worthwhile conversation about this champion?

has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo. His ultimate is far too high in damage and does additional damage if it hits something else (another one of Riot's favouritism buffs). Why is this champion getting so much special treatment in League?

I seriously would like to know if its me who thinks that Riot gives special treatment to certain champions or if other people have noticed this as well because its getting beyond a joke in my opinion. You might as well reduce the game down to 20+ Champions because thats all you seem to focus on.

represents a worrying trend of a company that are too afraid to make meaningful changes to a champion that they know is either toxic/and/or/ broken. They tried to rework Lee Sin but the "rage" of the community stopped them. So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped, nobody else had that liberty.

201 Comments

the weeaboo9/19/2016, 8:27:15 PM42 votes

He is probably the Jungler with the largest fan base besides maybe Rengar. He is the poster champ for "that player". You know. The guy that mains Yasuo, Riven, and Lee Sin because they look like they're straight out of a Bruce Lee movie? The one that says "Yasuo, riven, and Lee are super hard to play you need super good mechanics" when in actuality 1 in every 2 players has their exact skill set? Even when you can pretty much land one skillshot then mash your face on the keyboard and get a load of kills to make it look like you're actually good? Yeah that's Lee Sin.

Eedat9/19/2016, 8:57:09 PM41 votes

People are funny. They buffed Lee because he was weak. It wasnt even a huge buff. There are a few reasons why Lee continues to be popular, even when he isnt that good. One point being he is just straight up fun to play. He has a very cohesive kit that feels fun to use. Same thing goes for champs like Lucian who remain popular even when they aren't doing too hot. Second, he is an old champion and has become a comfort pick for a lot of players

I mean any problem you have with Lee is worse with Nidalee, yet nobody seems to have a problem with her. For example:

has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo.

Nidalee

Early game pressure:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early game duelist:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early, safe clear:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Early game damage:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Counter jungling:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Map mobility:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Poke:

Nidalee > LeeSin

All-in:

Nidalee > LeeSin

Vision:

Nidalee > LeeSin

You name it, Nid does it better. The only real difference being Lee can do some fancy Insec kicks mid-late game. Lee is pretty much a watered down version of Nid at this point. So why do people complain about Lee while simultaneously not give a damn about Nid?

Astôlfo9/19/2016, 8:16:54 PM19 votes

People are still stuck with PTSD from when he was in his prime and dominating. Which is long gone.

Dealth9/20/2016, 5:18:41 AM19 votes

"Lets have a proper discussion about Lee Sin"

oh, finally, a thread that's not super biased

proceeds to be incredibly biased

sigh

Kyrrion9/19/2016, 11:58:24 PM14 votes

Remember when Riot put some pretty big Lee changes on the PBE and then took them down pretty much ASAP due to the backlash?

I bet Riot still remembers.

BlackEyesBlue9/19/2016, 9:04:21 PM13 votes

Lee is one of the best examples of an argument I've made in the past:

"High Skill" - should not be a factor in a champs "power budget"

Lee has one of the games most overloaded kits, and he is not SO difficult that he should be allowed to have crazy stats along side his mobility, sustain AND utility.

Yasuo very much falls into the same category, I'd argue that he's hard to LEARN; but once you understand his in's and outs, he's not really all that hard to play well. Once learned he has a kit that lets him work around virtually any opponent. With no resource beyond VERY short cool downs no less! One tiny shift in meta breaks him, such as the recent tank yas fiasco, and DAMN if I didn't see a lot of mechanically TERRIBLE Yasuo's carry games when the original iteration of "Warlord's Bloodlust" first released with the keystone mastery re-work!

If Evelynn's passive fills enough of her "power budget" to justify nerfing the rest of her kit and stats into the dirt.... And Poppy had to lose a lot of damage AND utility because she wasn't being played "as we intended"... WHY are these two not allowed to be anything short of A-tier!?

The Yetii Rider9/19/2016, 10:56:07 PM9 votes

Trust me when I tell you that I hate Lee Sin. Like, I really hate Lee Sin.

The reason that Riot balances Lee the way that they do is because when Lee Sin isn't strong it weakens the game's early pressure. Rek'Sai has lost most of her damage and most other AD junglers (except Kha'Zix) don't have Lee's mobility early game to get successful kills off ganks at higher levels.

Nidalee is certainly a strong early jungler as well, but she's AP. You need an AD and an AP of the same threat to be more flexible in your team comp selection.

If Lee Sin isn't strong, then tank junglers become too powerful, and when tank junglers are too powerful, it makes assassins in the mid lane worse, which means that marksmen have no one to kill them and the entire game's ecosystem kind of falls apart.

Lee Sin has to be strong enough to be a threat. As long as Lee is a powerful champion, he artificially lowers the amount of tank junglers in the game, because a tank jungler will be hesitant to blind pick their tank jungler if Lee Sin isn't banned.

That's why Lee has to be relevant in every meta.

LatetotheRace9/20/2016, 2:26:45 AM6 votes

"So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped" Wish those dickheads had NOT reworked Mordekaiser

JackMcSnipeyz9/20/2016, 10:59:05 AM5 votes

Oh boy are we hating on lee sin now? Are we back to that. Throw away your yasuo/ekko hate threads folks, time to bandwagon the latest "toxic" "rito's favorite" "broken" "no counterplay" champ.

theArtifacts9/20/2016, 4:26:53 PM5 votes

{quoted}

has to only land one skillshot in order to do his combo.

Irrelevant. Many champs only have to land one skillshot to do their combo.

I seriously would like to know if its me who thinks that Riot gives special treatment to certain champions or if other people have noticed this as well because its getting beyond a joke in my opinion. You might as well reduce the game down to 20+ Champions because thats all you seem to focus on.

Your opinion. Not fact.

represents a worrying trend of a company that are too afraid to make meaningful changes to a champion that they know is either toxic/and/or/ broken. They tried to rework Lee Sin but the "rage" of the community stopped them. So far, that is the ONLY rework to be stopped, nobody else had that liberty.

Worrying trend? Please bro. Put down the salt.

Marshbouy9/19/2016, 9:47:25 PM4 votes

The league community takes too much of riot for granted. they say that they are stone cold and never listen to the community when in reality they do all the time.

Dengeden9/20/2016, 5:24:11 AM4 votes

Just because he got some number buffs after like 6 months of not being played competitively (by people not named Rush) does not show favoritism. A buff does not miraculously push a champion into the meta, Lee Sin's winrate was almost unaffected by getting a little tankier.

It's nice of Riot to give the people who like jumping about with Lee an easier time just like it was nice of them to buff MF. Or to leave Kayle unnerfed despite her consistent 55% winrate.

Nyanza9/20/2016, 1:23:01 AM2 votes

LeeSin has too much mobility. He basically has 3 flashes.