Irelia's rework is a failure

Śhunpo··25 votes·7,395 views

Irelia is a tanky, bruiser, burst, assassin with near infinite mobility. She legitimately 1-3 taps squishies, all while building the typical "bruiser build" which makes her a tank with over 3k HP.

Every single time I see Irelia in my game she's fed, it's nearly impossible for her not to get fed, especially since her passive, dash and mark system allow for both insane snowballing and comeback potential.

Why is it that I don't ever remember old Irelia decimating players while allowing for no reaction time? Like, I just don't ever recall old Irelia being this much of a nuisance. If anything she was healthier since she was better against tanks and worse against squishies from a design POV (though in reality she was worse against tanks and just stuck to squishies). Oh, but current Irelia is good against EVERYONE thanks to Conqueror and her mixed damage.

Let's list all of what made** old Irelia** unhealthy: -Could auto you to death -Was stat-checky -Dealt every single type of damage, meaning it was difficult to itemise against her -Abused items to no end -Old passive made it difficult to pin her down, thus killing any counterplay due to CC being shorter -Laning with her was somewhat uninteractive and boring, as was facing her -Kinda just countered tanks -Point and click damage -Boring design wise due to the fact that she didn't really have a defining niche per say -Actually fit into the "bruiser" class -Lacked mass sustain since she needed to auto to actually get a reliable source of HP regen

Now, let's list what makes this new Irelia unhealthy: -Her current passive allows her to chunk you with autos, and wail you down just by pressing right click -Is stat-checky -Near infinite mobility -A stun with a wonky hitbox -Incredible teamfight potential -Is amazing at all stages of the game -Is a lane bully who also outscales you -Deals every single type of damage, meaning it's difficult to itemise against her -Abuses items to no end -Her W makes it difficult to properly CC her as it pseudo negates CC -Laning with her is fun and interactive, but laning against her feels boring and uninteractive -Counters everyone thanks to Conqueror and passive -Point and click damage -Boring design wise as she's just a Q spamming bot that autos you to death if her Q is on CD -Is an assassin-bruiser hybrid who just takes the best aspects from both classes and doesn't inherit their downsides -Can heal for large amounts so long as the player piloting her kills creeps with Q (only gets better after Tiamat and/or any lifesteal item)

For reference from all of the Irelias I've faced I have witnessed some very "fun" gameplay when she's fighting someone. Squishies legitimately die from 1k-1.2k in around about 1-2 seconds with ONLY autos (thanks to her passive) when she only has Triforce+Tiamat and against tanks, if they miss anything they die, and if they fight her 1v1 they die. So in reality she just kills everyone, while being a lane bully who doesn't get outscaled, deals physical, magic and true damage, heals like crazy, has mass AOE damage, near infinite mobility, CC (a stun and a slow), incredible comeback potential, and is an unmatched duelist that just manfights anyone so long as she plays even half decently. At this point whenever I hear "IONIA STILL STANDS" I just assume that I'm probably dead since her ult slows you so she can land her stun, she gets a free mark on you for very little risk and/or effort and if anyone is with me that's more of a downside than a positive situation since that just gives her another Conqueror+passive stack.

Before moving on to old Irelia I'd also like to point out that the new runes absolutely break new Irelia, and if we were working with the old runes she'd be a lot less oppressive (although she'd still be unhealthy design wise).

What about old Irelia? Well, old Irelia it took her at least 4-6 autos to kill you (usually a lot more), and she relied on Sheen procs to get the job done, as well as hitting her ult procs (which wasn't as easy as you may think). Sure, most of her damage was point and click and she was a boring champion, but she was never this 1v5 monster who lacked any sense of counterplay. To counter old Irelia you actually had options, meanwhile this new Irelia is fairly limited in terms of counterplay besides dodging her initial ult....which just spreads to you anyways if you're even with one other person. Wait, but you can dodge new Irelia's stun unlike old Irelia's.....but new Irelia's stun hits outside the hitbox and can cover a large distance and almost any angle/position. Ok, well old Irelia could auto you to death.....but so can new Irelia? If not better, than old Irelia. Fine, old Irelia was a stat-checky champion and new Irelia isn't....except that's not true since new Irelia autos just as much as old Irelia and has a passive that allows her to beat almost anything so long as she has even a little bit of attack speed.

I'm starting to see a pattern here.....At this point I'm going to outright say that new Irelia was a failure of a rework that didn't just NOT fix already existing problems with old Irelia, but also brought new problems to the table. The only thing new Irelia did was make Irelia more mechanically complex, which is just countered out by the fact that old Irelia actually had really awful lanes, while new Irelia can win against pretty much every champion in the game, thus making her less difficult in terms of game knowledge.

With all this said, I still do not think that old Irelia should come back, it's not a revert I want. Just rework Irelia again to be more healthy and interesting

I actually quite enjoy PLAYING new Irelia, but holy moly playing against her makes me want to quit the game due to how frustrating and nonsensical she is. I didn't know that a champion NOT designed by CertainlyT could be this polarising and unhealthy, but here we are.

42 Comments

Moody P21 votes

Most everything you listed is either numbers or not even related to the champion (bad design because Conqueror lul) or not an issue at all. Nobody who is reasonable believes point and click damage is inherently unfair.

Most everything you've complained about is solved with numbers changes. That's not a bad design.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Right, its more of an items and numbers issue than a kit issue. And since no one wants her mid, there's a big issue with her in top: She cant really duel any of the top tier champs without having to get into the opponents head (which is difficult). That then makes her skill ceiling massive, but almost unlikely to be achieved. Riven on the other hand has a massive ceiling as well, but with many indirect changes that benefited her, that gap has shrunk massively for a skill based champion. She still needs some follow up work, but taking away the disarm and shield breaker was a good start.

Śhunpo3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NWvzitt3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-15T11:52:32.543+0000)

Most everything you listed is either numbers or not even related to the champion (bad design because Conqueror lul) or not an issue at all. Nobody who is reasonable believes point and click damage is inherently unfair.

Most everything you've complained about is solved with numbers changes. That's not a bad design.

Then why haven't those number changes happened yet?

Kadexe4 votes

They already happened. Irelia was incredibly bursty when she was first reworked, now she has a healthy balance of burst and DPS so you can actually fight back against her.

Jamaree17 votes

I think a failure of a rework would imply the champion got worst or doesn't see play, I think we have the exact opposite of a failure of a rework.

Śhunpo3 votes

{quoted}

I think a failure of a rework would imply the champion got worst or doesn't see play, I think we have the exact opposite of a failure of a rework.

She's even more unhealthy and none of her previous design issues were solved after her rework. I'd say that's a failure.

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

She's even more unhealthy and none of her previous design issues were solved after her rework. I'd say that's a failure.

Opinion

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Opinion

The first part can be seen as an opinion, the second part cannot.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

The first part can be seen as an opinion, the second part cannot.

I think a champion that punishes you for being ahead is far more cancerous then what we have now, annoying, yeah, cancerous, nah.

SuperTopLFBottom1 votes

{quoted}

I think a failure of a rework would imply the champion got worst or doesn't see play, I think we have the exact opposite of a failure of a rework.

A rework is supposed to make her less toxic and more bearable to play against.

The rework failed at everything. She is beyond broken in most tiers AND pro play. Absolute horrid to fight/lane against. A teamfight monster. She's basically the champion. Does everything. Her fuckin ult alone is better than most champions.

Vinbullet1 votes

{quoted}

I think a failure of a rework would imply the champion got worst or doesn't see play, I think we have the exact opposite of a failure of a rework.

Not necessarily they reworked assassins to make counterplay more noticeable.

Asud6 votes

I think that they were scared to actually announce that Certainly T was in charge of her rework too because someone would demand the mans head. I abused her for free elo at the end of last season. And i stopped thinking that the nerfs got her but the more time passes the more i realize that even after 10 nerfs that champion is still one of the most broken things in the game

DuskDaUmbreon6 votes

It did fix the problems though?

Old Irelia had legitimately no counterplay. The two abilities you could do anything against you either couldn't actually do anything against because a minion looked at her too hard and now that she's 3 points below max she gets a stun, and her R was borderline irrelevant.

Now you have a stun you can dodge (shit's narrow as fuck, despite what some claim), a passive you can play around because it exists as a window of power rather than a "I have tenacity and I have more if I get caught out in a 1v2", an ult that's actually relevant, and an ability that isn't just a bland AA enhancer. It created a real kit that actually has abilities with counterplay rather than...Whatever the fuck she used to be.

Also, her being fed in every game you're in? That's actually just a you problem. 47-49% winrate depending on where you look. At all tiers.

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

It did fix the problems though?

Old Irelia had legitimately no counterplay. The two abilities you could do anything against you either couldn't actually do anything against because a minion looked at her too hard and now that she's 3 points below max she gets a stun, and her R was borderline irrelevant.

Now you have a stun you can dodge (shit's narrow as fuck, despite what some claim), a passive you can play around because it exists as a window of power rather than a "I have tenacity and I have more if I get caught out in a 1v2", an ult that's actually relevant, and an ability that isn't just a bland AA enhancer. It created a real kit that actually has abilities with counterplay rather than...Whatever the fuck she used to be.

Also, her being fed in every game you're in? That's actually just a you problem. 47-49% winrate depending on where you look. At all tiers.

I second this. She is strong and maybe a bit op, but if you are good you can dodge almost everything she have. If you feed her or lose against her, it's usually because he is a better player.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

It did fix the problems though?

Old Irelia had legitimately no counterplay. The two abilities you could do anything against you either couldn't actually do anything against because a minion looked at her too hard and now that she's 3 points below max she gets a stun, and her R was borderline irrelevant.

Now you have a stun you can dodge (shit's narrow as fuck, despite what some claim), a passive you can play around because it exists as a window of power rather than a "I have tenacity and I have more if I get caught out in a 1v2", an ult that's actually relevant, and an ability that isn't just a bland AA enhancer. It created a real kit that actually has abilities with counterplay rather than...Whatever the fuck she used to be.

Also, her being fed in every game you're in? That's actually just a you problem. 47-49% winrate depending on where you look. At all tiers.

"47-49% winrate depending on where you look. At all tiers." Until you get people who play her quite frequently. Bad Irelias tank the win rate, same deal with Akali.

Hayaishi26 votes

Irelia is overrated. Gets outscaled by most bruisers 1v1 and her teamfighting is nowhere near as good anymore.

HopeStartsWithU6 votes

-She has to stack her passive first before actually dealing that much damage. -Is actually NOT stat checky, she is mostly reliant on AS and gets that from her passive which gives her something to play around other than buying and then winning. -wonky hitbox, yet easy to predict and probably the easiest skillshot to dodge in the game. -she falls off hard unless she is insanely ahead, sorry but that https://champion.gg/champion/Irelia/Top shows once everyone is fullbuild her winrate drops drastically -I don't see Irelia outscaling Riven, Fiora, Tryndamere, Yasuo or any other champ. Her mid is strong, which should be the case anyway, but her late is definitly not stronger than most toplaners/mids (even Zed can shred her late game) -Just because she is in her W doesn't mean she won't eat AP damage and will be locked down on one position. Especially in teamfights using W that long can mean death. -Conqueror being OP has nothing to do with Irelia? Jax and Renekton are also stupid then just because of Conqueror? -Her heal isn't that strong. It provides lots of sustain, yes thats true but Irelia also has to get the creeps which means she automatically puts her into the reach of an enemy.

She is also insanely predictable. Staying around low life minions is YOUR fault. Abusing the stupidity of the enemy laner is called strategy and should be rewarded, especially in a game like league in which reading movements is key to winning lane. Also you can counterpick her and ruin her day but that assumes that you are willing to play other champs than your main/s.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/ her winrate is trash btw. Or at least fine for a champ that takes some skill compared to a champ like, lets say, Jax as an example.

Hemulen Magi5 votes

Her new design is much more interesting and fun to play with/against. I think she is also more fair now, but she is still a champ that is incredibly sensitive to balance. She is like Riven, Lee Sin, and Vayne in the sense that if they are even slightly overtuned, then they are incredibly oppressive due to mobility combined with cc and damage potential. When Irelia is properly balanced, at 48-49% winrate for a champ like her, then she is healthy for the game. The kit design is good.

5or6stores3 votes

Irelia has several bad matchups in lane. Renekton Tryndamere Garen Fiora Poppy Pantheon Riven Jax. This champ can shut her down in teamfights with absolutely no thought or aim involved: Veigar, and anyone without point-and-click CC can shut her down as well.

Irelia is THE adc/range-abuser killer. She's going to win against Kayle Gnar Teemo and be dangerous to adcs without great self-peel. She does have windows of opportunity and weakness, but you need to pay attention to her passive and low-health minions.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Irelia has several bad matchups in lane. Renekton Tryndamere Garen Fiora Poppy Pantheon Riven Jax. This champ can shut her down in teamfights with absolutely no thought or aim involved: Veigar, and anyone without point-and-click CC can shut her down as well.

Irelia is THE adc/range-abuser killer. She's going to win against Kayle Gnar Teemo and be dangerous to adcs without great self-peel. She does have windows of opportunity and weakness, but you need to pay attention to her passive and low-health minions.

The only champion listed there that can beat Irelia cleanly is Garen, and he gets hardcore outscaled by her.

Also low HP minions are no longer a factor since once she gets Sheen+Tiamat she can oneshot one creep and then move on to the next and so on.

ShakeNBakeUK3 votes

so is Akali's :3

CHEWYARMS3 votes

She just has too many ways to deal with almost any situation. She also suffers from being a "high skill cap champ" which in this game translates to she has alot of potential to make flashy plays but all the tools that make her hard to play also double has handholding mechanics.

I have never seen an irelia not have less then 8 CS a minute. Even the trash ones who I beat in lane get to have near perfect CS due to how oppressively easy it is to last hit with her.

But I think my biggest complaint about her is that she builds like a juggernaut but plays like a tanky assassin with built in defense who has burst and sustain. For a complete picture and something that has also bothered me as a yorick main, her and yoricks typical core builds are almost identical. Which leads to her basically deal the same amount of damage while being tankier in some cases but not have any of the weaknesses that juggs do in her kit.

item 3078 item 3053 item 3812 item 3026 item 3065 item 3748

Why is someone like irelia who has none of the weaknesses of being an immobile champ aloud to run around building the same items intended for juggs.

She can never be balanced. Even if her WR was 40% she would still be picked in high elo if her runes/items/kit remain the same.

General Matty2 votes

The P-man himself is here to defend every tank and bruiser/juggernaut champion even if they are unhealthy and generally unbalanced in some way.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

And how does that in any way make him unable to make a sound argument?

People disagree on many things, doesnt mean their arguments/reasons are bad.

General Matty1 votes

I'm not saying his arguments are bad, but what i am saying is that half of the time he's memeing and the other half he says something biased on the behalf of a juggernaut/bruiser. (Also Volibear, but i won't get into that)

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Matty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NWvzitt3,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T15:42:55.558+0000)

I'm not saying his arguments are bad, but what i am saying is that half of the time he's memeing and the other half he says something biased on the behalf of a juggernaut/bruiser. (Also Volibear, but i won't get into that)

....And so, in your own words, you have just now stated that he makes absolutely 0 reasonable/logical arguments.

After all, a very biased argument or one that is more of a joke cannot be reasonable, reason is founded on fairness and is synonymous with sensibility and rationality.

I wont argue that he usually makes biased comments, because thats seems to be the case. but i do see him make logically sound arguments based on reason every now and then.

Thus i heartily disagree with you^^

An argument cannot be heavily biased and good at the same time, a good argument is founded on reason, logic and plausible premises.

But heavy bias goes against reason, and it usually ignores any plausible premises that is contrary to it, heavy bias is favor based on emotion that ignores logic.

So i find that your statement to be quite contrary to itself, unless i assume you used hyperbole.

But that is pretty much just as bad as bias you know?

After all, its falsified information by exaggerating........in my eyes there is little difference between ignoring the truth and twisting it to your own ends.

General Matty1 votes

Yes he makes good arguments every now and then. I do think he has his good points. And yes, i was using a hyperbole. But i mostly get annoyed due to how he feels about Volibear.

GripaAviara2 votes

Never found Irelia recently being an OP champion. Moreover now with Conq nerf

But I agree, her rework is lacking and hard to balance

Poske2 votes

She is the best rework we had along with Le blancs.

DalekZec2 votes

Morello himself said that Irelia was a mistake even before her rework. I need to find the thread that quotes him that and send in the link.

Give me a few hours though.

Besteal2 votes

Alright, time to rip apart another poorly argued vent.

Irelia is a tanky, bruiser, burst, assassin with near infinite mobility. She legitimately 1-3 taps squishies, all while building the typical "bruiser build" which makes her a tank with over 3k HP.

Your statements are already shaky. Irelia is A.) not tanky, B.) a skirmisher who pales in comparison to the bulk of other Bruisers, C.) Not burst oriented, as the last few changes have made her more sustain damage based, D.) terrible at assassinating, E.) Has mobility limited to what she can kill with her Q and her ability to land either a thin skillshot or her Ultimate ability. If an Irelia is 3 shotting squishies, then she is so far ahead that I'd be surprised if she wasn't.

Every single time I see Irelia in my game she's fed, it's nearly impossible for her not to get fed, especially since her passive, dash and mark system allow for both insane snowballing and comeback potential.

Statistically impossible. And if you don't know how to play against Irelia earlier on, then that's on you. You're bad.

Why is it that I don't ever remember old Irelia decimating players while allowing for no reaction time? Like, I just don't ever recall old Irelia being this much of a nuisance.

Because your already terrible memory is further handicapped by your rose-tinted glasses.

Now, let's list what makes this new Irelia unhealthy: -Her current passive allows her to chunk you with autos, and wail you down just by pressing right click

Congratulations. Welcome to League of Legends. What champion doesn't do this.

-Is stat-checky

League is a stat check game. This isn't Street Fighter we're playing.

-Near infinite mobility

Already addressed

-A stun with a wonky hitbox

Already been addressed as the X Y Z axis problem.

-Incredible teamfight potential

Irelia does NOT have this good of a teamfight. I don't know where people get this from. Only if you flank do you have much impact. Irelia is a far better skirmisher than teamfighter.

-Is amazing at all stages of the game

Matchup dependent and also falls off in comparison to actual late-game threats like Jax, Riven, and Hecarim.

-Is a lane bully who also outscales you

No. Most if not all the matchups that Irelia bullies outscale her.

-Deals every single type of damage, meaning it's difficult to itemise against her

8% true damage conversion with Conqueror lol. And the amount of times that Irelia players have told me that Irelia doesn't do that much magic damage even with passive seems to contradict the 'difficult to itemize against' statement. All you need is armor and most of Irelia's damage is gone.

-Abuses items to no end

If you mean uses them as intended, sure. This isn't Essence Reaver Renekton we're talking about here.

-Her W makes it difficult to properly CC her as it pseudo negates CC

It's a self CC. CC still effects her and she effectively sits there for you to throw stuff, especially MAGICAL stuff at her.

-Laning with her is fun and interactive, but laning against her feels boring and uninteractive

There's a thing called zoning, I don't know if you've heard of it, but this is how every lane ever works.

-Counters everyone thanks to Conqueror and passive

A more ridiculous statement I could not make.

-Point and click damage

Your point? You need to land a highly finnicky skillshot to make the most of it anyway.

-Boring design wise as she's just a Q spamming bot that autos you to death if her Q is on CD

I guess every champion in the game is boring design wise because you just press their buttons until the enemy dies too. I also guess Irelia's other three abilities and their underlying mechanics don't exist.

-Is an assassin-bruiser hybrid who just takes the best aspects from both classes and doesn't inherit their downsides

Let's see, she has a little burst, and decent sustained damage in exchange for

  • No reliable escape
  • On the squishier side compared to other bruiser classes
  • Far more susceptible to CC than other bruisers
  • There are more but I need to devote time to writing more

-Can heal for large amounts so long as the player piloting her kills creeps with Q (only gets better after Tiamat and/or any lifesteal item)

On an extremely situational basis which depends on exactly what you said. Minions being low enough for her to kill, and hoping your greedy SoloQ teammates don't do it first

Squishies legitimately die from 1k-1.2k in around about 1-2 seconds with ONLY autos (thanks to her passive) when she only has Triforce+Tiamat and against tanks, if they miss anything they die, and if they fight her 1v1 they die. So in reality she just kills everyone, while being a lane bully who doesn't get outscaled, deals physical, magic and true damage, heals like crazy, has mass AOE damage, near infinite mobility, CC (a stun and a slow), incredible comeback potential, and is an unmatched duelist that just manfights anyone so long as she plays even half decently.

Because she's fed. lol. Now let's see. If you're playing a tank that's even relatively good, then you beat Irelia until she gets all her core items as long as you play correctly. After that, of course she's going to auto you to death. That's the job of conqueror bruisers. Irelia is perfectly outscaled by many champions, most of which are the ones she bullies. Irelia herself is quite easy to bully on almost any other lane bully as well. Irelia healing like crazy? Mass AOE damage? Infinite mobility? Complaining about a super thin microstun? Let me tell you, this is the most bullshit I've read all week. And it gets even worse when I read this:

unmatched duelist

It's almost sad that anybody with a functioning brain would ever say this.

I'm starting to see a pattern here.....At this point I'm going to outright say that new Irelia was a failure of a rework that didn't just NOT fix already existing problems with old Irelia, but also brought new problems to the table. The only thing new Irelia did was make Irelia more mechanically complex, which is just countered out by the fact that old Irelia actually had really awful lanes, while new Irelia can win against pretty much every champion in the game, thus making her less difficult in terms of game knowledge.

The crux of the argument. And almost as appallingly wrong as what you said before. Irelia is now a mechanically complex champion whom has clear counterplay and windows of power. Here's your job. Make sure that you fight her when your minions aren't low and she doesn't have her passive stacked. Then dodge E. Trade with her or just all in and kill her. Congratulations, you win. Yes. It is actually that simple.

With all this said, I still do not think that old Irelia should come back, it's not a revert I want. Just rework Irelia again to be more healthy and interesting

I actually quite enjoy PLAYING new Irelia, but holy moly playing against her makes me want to quit the game due to how frustrating and nonsensical she is.

The fact that anyone could think that Irelia is neither healthy nor interesting is ridiculous. It's unfathomable. Anyone with half a brain can see what you want here. What you want is to remove truly fresh and interesting champions like Irelia and Akali from the game, so you can play braindead shit like Mundo and just run people into the ground without any skill whatsoever. It is painfully obvious that when people make complaints like this, they just don't want to learn counterplay. There's a reason why Lee Sin is terrible right now, why Yasuo is terrible, why Nidalee isn't good, why Akali is bad, and why Irelia can't even get a 50% WR.

It's because Riot bent over backwards to appease people who don't know how to use their heads. And it's truly a shame. People don't want to learn new things, and it's why Riot can't really move forwards with their champion designs without such stupid backlash. Riot has shown time and again that they know what they're doing, balance-wise, with very few exceptions, mostly stemming from older REAL statchecks like Vayne, Yi, and Riven.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, time to rip apart another poorly argued vent.

Your statements are already shaky. Irelia is A.) not tanky, B.) a skirmisher who pales in comparison to the bulk of other Bruisers, C.) Not burst oriented, as the last few changes have made her more sustain damage based, D.) terrible at assassinating, E.) Has mobility limited to what she can kill with her Q and her ability to land either a thin skillshot or her Ultimate ability. If an Irelia is 3 shotting squishies, then she is so far ahead that I'd be surprised if she wasn't.

Statistically impossible. And if you don't know how to play against Irelia earlier on, then that's on you. You're bad.

Because your already terrible memory is further handicapped by your rose-tinted glasses. -Her current passive allows her to chunk you with autos, and wail you down just by pressing right click

Congratulations. Welcome to League of Legends. What champion doesn't do this.

League is a stat check game. This isn't Street Fighter we're playing.

Already addressed

Already been addressed as the X Y Z axis problem.

Irelia does NOT have this good of a teamfight. I don't know where people get this from. Only if you flank do you have much impact. Irelia is a far better skirmisher than teamfighter.

Matchup dependent and also falls off in comparison to actual late-game threats like Jax, Riven, and Hecarim.

No. Most if not all the matchups that Irelia bullies outscale her.

8% true damage conversion with Conqueror lol. And the amount of times that Irelia players have told me that Irelia doesn't do that much magic damage even with passive seems to contradict the 'difficult to itemize against' statement. All you need is armor and most of Irelia's damage is gone.

If you mean uses them as intended, sure. This isn't Essence Reaver Renekton we're talking about here.

It's a self CC. CC still effects her and she effectively sits there for you to throw stuff, especially MAGICAL stuff at her.

There's a thing called zoning, I don't know if you've heard of it, but this is how every lane ever works.

A more ridiculous statement I could not make.

Your point? You need to land a highly finnicky skillshot to make the most of it anyway.

I guess every champion in the game is boring design wise because you just press their buttons until the enemy dies too. I also guess Irelia's other three abilities and their underlying mechanics don't exist.

Let's see, she has a little burst, and decent sustained damage in exchange for

  • No reliable escape
  • On the squishier side compared to other bruiser classes
  • Far more susceptible to CC than other bruisers
  • There are more but I need to devote time to writing more

On an extremely situational basis which depends on exactly what you said. Minions being low enough for her to kill, and hoping your greedy SoloQ teammates don't do it first

Because she's fed. lol. Now let's see. If you're playing a tank that's even relatively good, then you beat Irelia until she gets all her core items as long as you play correctly. After that, of course she's going to auto you to death. That's the job of conqueror bruisers. Irelia is perfectly outscaled by many champions, most of which are the ones she bullies. Irelia herself is quite easy to bully on almost any other lane bully as well. Irelia healing like crazy? Mass AOE damage? Infinite mobility? Complaining about a super thin microstun? Let me tell you, this is the most bullshit I've read all week. And it gets even worse when I read this:

It's almost sad that anybody with a functioning brain would ever say this.

The crux of the argument. And almost as appallingly wrong as what you said before. Irelia is now a mechanically complex champion whom has clear counterplay and windows of power. Here's your job. Make sure that you fight her when your minions aren't low and she doesn't have her passive stacked. Then dodge E. Trade with her or just all in and kill her. Congratulations, you win. Yes. It is actually that simple.

I actually quite enjoy PLAYING new Irelia, but holy moly playing against her makes me want to quit the game due to how frustrating and nonsensical she is.

The fact that anyone could think that Irelia is neither healthy nor interesting is ridiculous. It's unfathomable. Anyone with half a brain can see what you want here. What you want is to remove truly fresh and interesting champions like Irelia and Akali from the game, so you can play braindead shit like Mundo and just run people into the ground without any skill whatsoever. It is painfully obvious that when people make complaints like this, they just don't want to learn counterplay. There's a reason why Lee Sin is terrible right now, why Yasuo is terrible, why Nidalee isn't good, why Akali is bad, and why Irelia can't even get a 50% WR.

It's because Riot bent over backwards to appease people who don't know how to use their heads. And it's truly a shame. People don't want to learn new things, and it's why Riot can't really move forwards with their champion designs without such stupid backlash. Riot has shown time and again that they know what they're doing, balance-wise, with very few exceptions, mostly stemming from older REAL statchecks like Vayne, Yi, and Riven.

I would refute your points but you've resulted to ad-hominem attacks, thus already invalidating your points without me having any need to fire back.

That said, I will reply to that last paragraph of yours. I actually play Kat and Twitch, so that whole "so you can play braindead shit like Mundo..." is blatantly false. I hate braindead champs too, it's just that they have quite a few options in terms of counterplay in comparison to "high skill ceiling" picks such as Irelia, Akali and Riven who lose most of their counterplay thanks to runes, items and their overloaded kits.

I will also touch upon this section here: "There's a reason why Lee Sin is terrible right now, why Yasuo is terrible, why Nidalee isn't good, why Akali is bad, and why Irelia can't even get a 50% WR." Ok, this can be explained with one reason. They are one trick/main champions, and your average player makes the winrate tank. On that note, Lee sin is doing really well right now, as are Yasuo, Akali and Nidalee. Nidalee is probably the worst there, but she's still incredible in the hands of a dedicated player. Welcome to the world of "high skill ceiling champions", where their winrates do not reflect their actual success thanks to the general playerbase.

I should also mention that it's unwise to say that Riot knows what they're doing balance-wise. The new runes are still broken as a whole, there is still too much damage in the game, there is still too much CC in the game, every time they introduce a new champ/rework/item they just bring with it a plethora of design issues that just aren't fundamentally fun to face, they often don't listen to the general community (it took them 2 full years to give Kat her "instant" Shunpo) as is reflected by their slap on the wrist nerfs to Riven and Vayne which don't actually solve any of the problems to do with them.

Honestly, Riot has shown us that they're so out of touch with their playerbase when it comes to what is actually broken, and when it comes to newly introduced aspects to the game Riot really puts their foot down in a stubborn manner. Such an example of this would be instead of removing Essence Flare as a passive they instead shifted it over to a bruiser item, which is now an even bigger issue, which it looks like they just won't address (I'm talking about Spear of Shojin by the way). Then we also have the new Conqueror, which can never be balanced, same to Aftershock and Stopwatch. Yet Riot refuses to remove these from the game since they do not want to acknowledge that they made some rather major oversights both in game design and balance.

With all that said, you are right though, Riot does "bend over backwards" at times for the playerbase when they really don't have to, case and point, the assassin update; which was neither needed nor wanted by a majority of the playerbase.

DeadUnborn1 votes

I think some of it has to do with people not tracking her stacks and dash reset potential because it isn't clear enough if you don't read her abilities. If you fight an unfed irelia with low stacks you win trades easily

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Oh wow this is kinda ridiculous.

OP you basically complain about a few things to summarize it.

  • Point and click damage,
  • Difficulty in itemization against her
  • CC buffering
  • Mobility
  • Conqueror.
  • Damage.
  • No weak time to abuse.
  • Item abuse

Now lets correct you.

  • Her auto attack damage is extremely reliant on stacking her passive, this she does by killing minions with her Q or hitting you with abilities, however her E and R can be dodged.
  • E is fairly easy to dodge, which means her combo falls apart rapidly,,,,meaning she is actually E and R reliant.
  • Difficulty in counter-itemization? Her magic damage is truly miniscule to the point where a full armor malphite takes little damage from her even if she stacks her passive first.
  • CC buffering? Which toplaner doesnt have this or unavoidable CC?
  • Infinite mobility.....that relies on being able to reset her Q via her R or E or oneshotting minions.
  • Conqueror? Irelia is legit bad at using this keystone, by the time she manages to activate it in a 1v1 she has already burnt through most of her combo and the fight is already decided, only point its good at is in teamfights.....but for who is this not the case? If you want a good conqueror user look at Riven or Hecarim.
  • Her damage? Entirely reliant on her passive and Q resets, screw any of these up and she does none.
  • Her early before her first recall is beyond awful, does barely any damage without a fully stacked passive.....but Q does like 100 damage to minions meaning you cant stack it well.
  • Item abuse? Which champion does not have some item or items that they have great synergy with? This is typically their so called core item/s........almost all toplaners have them and very few are truly free to do whatever.

Then for some of your "claims"

Bruiser is not a fricking category for crying out loud! She is a bloody fricking diver you ......careless person.''

Divers are mobile fighter class- melee who often pack quite a bit of damage, but in return their damage is inferior to assassins while being more durable&having fairly reliable CC.

I dont know about Irelia but i know a Zed at max build does about 6000-7000 damage to a squishy with a perfect combo, and i know Irelia does in no way do that much, at least not to a single target.

Heal for a lot? At max rank its 20% of her AD.

With 150 AD she then heals 30 per cast, this by the time she has both tiamant and trinity force as she has low base AD, so for a full wave of minions she can heal 180.....at a time when she has like 1600 health.

Lots of healing my ass, 1 Q from say Garen in the meanwhile does nearly 400 damage.

Outscale? Outscale who in the world?

The only ones she beats hard are Gnar, Ryze and Singled, literally everyone else outscales her hard.

Irelia isnt made for or even particularly good 1v1 at all, nor does she scale that well really.....what she is, is a teamfighting monster and thats her niche, as if her AOE E and R+Q reset mechanics werent indication enough.

One can tell half your claims are ......poorly thought out&lacking in research just looking at her mains reddit matchups guide (the old one) or OP.GG matchup winrates.

Are you sure you are complaining about Irelia or Jax /Fiora MasterYi

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Oh wow this is kinda ridiculous.

OP you basically complain about a few things to summarize it.

  • Point and click damage,

  • Difficulty in itemization against her

  • CC buffering

  • Mobility

  • Conqueror.

  • Damage.

  • No weak time to abuse.

  • Item abuse

Now lets correct you.

  • Her auto attack damage is extremely reliant on stacking her passive, this she does by killing minions with her Q or hitting you with abilities, however her E and R can be dodged.
  • E is fairly easy to dodge, which means her combo falls apart rapidly,,,,meaning she is actually E and R reliant.
  • Difficulty in counter-itemization? Her magic damage is truly miniscule to the point where a full armor malphite takes little damage from her even if she stacks her passive first.
  • CC buffering? Which toplaner doesnt have this or unavoidable CC?
  • Infinite mobility.....that relies on being able to reset her Q via her R or E or oneshotting minions.
  • Conqueror? Irelia is legit bad at using this keystone, by the time she manages to activate it in a 1v1 she has already burnt through most of her combo and the fight is already decided, only point its good at is in teamfights.....but for who is this not the case? If you want a good conqueror user look at Riven or Hecarim.
  • Her damage? Entirely reliant on her passive and Q resets, screw any of these up and she does none.
  • Her early before her first recall is beyond awful, does barely any damage without a fully stacked passive.....but Q does like 100 damage to minions meaning you cant stack it well.
  • Item abuse? Which champion does not have some item or items that they have great synergy with? This is typically their so called core item/s........almost all toplaners have them and very few are truly free to do whatever.

Then for some of your "claims"

Bruiser is not a fricking category for crying out loud! She is a bloody fricking diver you ......careless person.''

Divers are mobile fighter class- melee who often pack quite a bit of damage, but in return their damage is inferior to assassins while being more durable&having fairly reliable CC.

I dont know about Irelia but i know a Zed at max build does about 6000-7000 damage to a squishy with a perfect combo, and i know Irelia does in no way do that much, at least not to a single target.

Heal for a lot? At max rank its 20% of her AD.

With 150 AD she then heals 30 per cast, this by the time she has both tiamant and trinity force as she has low base AD, so for a full wave of minions she can heal 180.....at a time when she has like 1600 health.

Lots of healing my ass, 1 Q from say Garen in the meanwhile does nearly 400 damage.

Outscale? Outscale who in the world?

The only ones she beats hard are Gnar, Ryze and Singled, literally everyone else outscales her hard.

Irelia isnt made for or even particularly good 1v1 at all, nor does she scale that well really.....what she is, is a teamfighting monster and thats her niche, as if her AOE E and R+Q reset mechanics werent indication enough.

One can tell half your claims are ......poorly thought out&lacking in research just looking at her mains reddit matchups guide (the old one) or OP.GG matchup winrates.

Are you sure you are complaining about Irelia or Jax /Fiora MasterYi

Irelia does more damage than assassins for one, and she's actually far more mobile and versatile, all while being able to itemise somewhat defensively; giving up very little damage in the process.

She can stack her passive by auto'ing you as well, so by that logic it only really takes 2 Qs on creeps and 2 autos on you before she starts to hurt. But then if she hits you with E and/or Ult she can pretty much instantly stack her passive. Then you factor in Sheen+Tiamat...and oh, she can now kill every minion in sight and instantly stack her passive.

Zed full build does 4k to a single target, 5k at most if they have no armour or bonus HP. Irelia does around about the same amount while also being comparatively more tanky than Zed.

Yep, that's near infinite mobility. There are 6 creeps to a wave, and with R that's around about 4 dashes on average in a teamfight. That's already more mobile than a Katarina who Shunpo resets both daggers and gets a reset or two.

Multiply that healing by around about 6 thanks to the number of minions to a wave. Also don't forget to account for Conqueror, Ravenous Hunter and Taste of Blood. In relation to this, who picks Garen nowadays? Picking Garen usually results in your team losing since he gets outscaled and is awful outside of lane.

You can't screw her passive up since she can stack it just by auto'ing you.

As for your point about Conqueror that's false since you've forgotten entirely about the fact that Irelia can and does auto you, she doesn't just Q reset to proc it. So she could Q to a minion->auto->auto->auto->Q->auto and that's Conqueror popped. If she hits E she can Q->auto->auto->insta W->Q-auto, thus proc'ing Conqueror twice all while you're stunned. Then don't forget about her level 6 where she can get ~4 procs of Conqueror off cleanly on you if it connects (it's not hard to hit).

Her early game is actually one of the strongest in the game. Listen to any high elo player and they will say that her early game is amazing. The only time her early game is ever bad is when the jungler gets involved, and that's really it.

By CC buffering I'm guessing you're talking about her W's CC pseudo-negation? If so, which top laner HAS THIS?

As for her scaling, your comment simply isn't true. The only champ that can "outscale" her is Tryndamere, but he just loses early game to her, as well as teamfights.

"One can tell half your claims are ......poorly thought out&lacking in research just looking at her mains reddit matchups guide (the old one) or OP.GG matchup winrates."

Pity OP.GG doesn't account for Irelia MAINS and only really counts ALL Irelia players, thus skewing matchup winrates. To be quite frank with you I don't need to research much about Irelia when I can see with my own eyes what her problems are, both from playing as her and against her. Personal experience really is the best kind of research tbh.

That's not what I'm talking about when I say "item abuse". I mean that not only does she abuse items, she also makes it impossible for Riot to release any new items with mechanics she could abuse, such as something like the reworked Wit's End, which is simply ridiculous both on her and every other champion that uses it since that item is disgusting. It's just that it's moreso disgusting on Irelia (and Yi).

Ok, well if Irelia does fit that niche they should take away some of her dueling power to compensate. She can't be both like she is now, especially not if she can build semi-tanky and deal damage on par with assassins.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

:....Did you read anything i wrote?=

She does not do more damage than assassins, period.

Zed does more at all stages of the game post 6, nothing she does will ever catchup to him, and other assassins are not far behind.

Itemize defensively? You mean hybrid itemization such as item 3053 item 3026 item 3748 etc? Which melee fighter does not use these?

And holy hells you are .......ignorant, yes, ignorant, and you havent even bothered to research her at all which just makes things insulting to those who make actual effort to make posts.

No, irelia cannot stack her passive with auto attacks, she can stack conqueror, but not her passive.

To activate her passive from scratch 1v1 it takes 5 ability hits, Q-W-E-Q-R

Miss her E or R and you dont get to have the real benefit from her passive unless you stacked off a minion....but doing so exposes you to stuff like Garen Q which effectively chunks you, or a riven combo or a darius hook or a kled all in.

Any of those later ones either kills ya or forces a recall.

Sheen+tiamant? Yeah she spent a shitton of gold to be able to waveclear and stack her passive, but by the time she gets these its usually too late, Jax will have sheen+phage and will just straight up wreck her 1v1.

Fiora wrecks irelia at all times, Riven wrecks her at all times post 6, Renekton, Darius, garen....they all take her no questions asked.

And Zed only does about 4500-5000 damage if his target buys a significant amount of armor and he does not get max armor pen,

But comparing their damage.

Zed =

290 bonus AD and 120 base.

Passive 10% max health as magic damage.

Duskblade = 150

Electrolute=180+40% bonus AD.

3Q = 660+300% bonus AD.

E =170 + 80% bonus AD.

R = Total AD+ 55% of previous damage dealt.

Irelia =

Base AD 131

20 AD from runes = , build = item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 item 3026 =175 bonus Ad.

3Q = 660 + 180% AD.

W = 70 + 50% AD base and max = 140+100% AD.

E = 230 + 80% AP.

R = 325 (+ 70% AP) + 275 (+ 70% AP), second part only if they walk through the wall.

.....Like no matter how i look at this, Zed comes out as way superior in terms of damage numbers, his build has way more AD, he builds anti armor which reduces enemy resistances(key part) and he packs a massive number on his R.

Irelia? Comparable damage to Zed? Lol no.

What mobility comparable to katarina?

All her abilities except her ult gain a reset when she gets an assist/kill, meaning as long as she keeps killing&helping then she can jump 12 times.

2x Irelia.

And again, did you read anything? I explicitly wrote =

With 150 AD she then heals 30 per cast, this by the time she has both tiamant and trinity force as she has low base AD, so for a full wave of minions she can heal 180.....at a time when she has like 1600 health.

And you line about this :

As for your point about Conqueror that's false since you've forgotten entirely about the fact that Irelia can and does auto you, she doesn't just Q reset to proc it. So she could Q to a minion->auto->auto->auto->Q->auto and that's Conqueror popped. If she hits E she can Q->auto->auto->insta W->Q-auto, thus proc'ing Conqueror twice all while you're stunned. Then don't forget about her level 6 where she can get ~4 procs of Conqueror off cleanly on you if it connects (it's not hard to hit).

What the heck are you doing when she is going through those first autos?

Wiping your ass? Cleaning your nails?

Riven, jax, renekton or Darius all kill her in that time, and this is provided they are dumb enough to let her land that obvious E.

And those combos? You realize that by the time Conqueror activates for any of these then she has already used almost all her damage or spent a ton of time auto attacking? She either loses a heap of damage by activating it with abilities or she spends a huge amount of time on it with auto attacks.

You dont just want to activate conqueror, you want to use your stuff while its up to gain a massive damage boost to your combo, this is why Riven and hecarim are so good with it.

Because they can start it very damn quickly without spending too much of their combo for it.

If talking just synergies 1v1 then PTA is by far the best on Irelia, she can activate it with her Q´s and autos and it´s fast enough to not waste too much on her combo at it, and its great early game.

Good early game? That is renekton, Darius or Riven, not irelia.

Irelia is good once she has tiamant + sheen/phage, at which point she is still behind those guys.

And again, did you read anything i wrote?

CC buffering? Which toplaner doesnt have this or unavoidable CC?

Tell me, which good toplaner doesnt have something like Fiora W, Jax E or a nigh unavoidable CC like Renekton W, Garen Q, Darius E.

Heck Garen actually has both CC and a buffer in his W, Riven can animation cancel enemy CC, Darius can also buffer a lot of CC, as can urgot.

....Dude do you even know what outscale means?

It means grow stronger, and Irelia is among the weakest if we talk purely 1v1.

The only area she is good in is teamfights, but she is worse than any tank as they are specialized in it.

And again, did you read anything?

I wrote that you can easily check both OP.GG and the irelia mains subbreddit for detailed info on her matchups, the later have multiple high diamond mains who have written in to formulate how things work and play out, dont you agree they know the matchups the best by far?

Personal experience? Reeks of bias, lacks in credibility and worst of all by far, extremely lacking in sample size.

And what the hells, your comment on wits end.

That's not what I'm talking about when I say "item abuse". I mean that not only does she abuse items, she also makes it impossible for Riot to release any new items with mechanics she could abuse, such as something like the reworked Wit's End, which is simply ridiculous both on her and every other champion that uses it since that item is disgusting. It's just that it's moreso disgusting on Irelia (and Yi).

"It was disgusting on her and everyone else but mainly her and yi" - is what you are saying her.

Which is just pure pullshit.

Before PBE wits end was heavily nerfed the worst offenders in abusing it were Kayle who used it to invalidate AP matchups, Jax, yi, Shyvana, Trundle, warwhick, Tryndamere and a heap of marksmen, despite the so called limitations for ranged.

Irelia was one of the two worst? Pure damn bias.

And dueling power?

Do tell me, whom does she beat 1v1, aside from ranged champs? Aside from those who are truly weak early like Mundo or Ornn that pretty much anyone beats?

I can tell ya, she loses 1v1 to malphite post the first recall, she loses to mundo post 2-3 items, she loses to jax and Fiora right from the start no matter what, she cannot beat Garen, Darius or Volibear.

I have played her, i have played Jax, i read guides, i have stalked her reddit mains page since the rework.......the only thing i did not do was watch her being streamed really.

And i used to main her before the rework, and jax,,,,,they were my two main toplaners.

And post the rework that i only recently started trying out for real i can unconditionally say, she sucks horribly hard into competent melee matchups, is insanely OP into ranged ones, and is absolutely awful generally post 4 items.

If you wana carry then Jax is by far superior in all regards be it from 1v1, to splitpushing to being a absolute beast in teamfights.-----......the only lacking thing about jax is the fun factor as well as having no style or flashiness.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

:....Did you read anything i wrote?=

She does not do more damage than assassins, period.

Zed does more at all stages of the game post 6, nothing she does will ever catchup to him, and other assassins are not far behind.

Itemize defensively? You mean hybrid itemization such as item 3053 item 3026 item 3748 etc? Which melee fighter does not use these?

And holy hells you are .......ignorant, yes, ignorant, and you havent even bothered to research her at all which just makes things insulting to those who make actual effort to make posts.

No, irelia cannot stack her passive with auto attacks, she can stack conqueror, but not her passive.

To activate her passive from scratch 1v1 it takes 5 ability hits, Q-W-E-Q-R

Miss her E or R and you dont get to have the real benefit from her passive unless you stacked off a minion....but doing so exposes you to stuff like Garen Q which effectively chunks you, or a riven combo or a darius hook or a kled all in.

Any of those later ones either kills ya or forces a recall.

Sheen+tiamant? Yeah she spent a shitton of gold to be able to waveclear and stack her passive, but by the time she gets these its usually too late, Jax will have sheen+phage and will just straight up wreck her 1v1.

Fiora wrecks irelia at all times, Riven wrecks her at all times post 6, Renekton, Darius, garen....they all take her no questions asked.

And Zed only does about 4500-5000 damage if his target buys a significant amount of armor and he does not get max armor pen,

But comparing their damage.

Zed =

290 bonus AD and 120 base.

Passive 10% max health as magic damage.

Duskblade = 150

Electrolute=180+40% bonus AD.

3Q = 660+300% bonus AD.

E =170 + 80% bonus AD.

R = Total AD+ 55% of previous damage dealt.

Irelia =

Base AD 131

20 AD from runes = , build = item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 item 3026 =175 bonus Ad.

3Q = 660 + 180% AD.

W = 70 + 50% AD base and max = 140+100% AD.

E = 230 + 80% AP.

R = 325 (+ 70% AP) + 275 (+ 70% AP), second part only if they walk through the wall.

.....Like no matter how i look at this, Zed comes out as way superior in terms of damage numbers, his build has way more AD, he builds anti armor which reduces enemy resistances(key part) and he packs a massive number on his R.

Irelia? Comparable damage to Zed? Lol no.

What mobility comparable to katarina?

All her abilities except her ult gain a reset when she gets an assist/kill, meaning as long as she keeps killing&helping then she can jump 12 times.

2x Irelia.

And again, did you read anything? I explicitly wrote =

And you line about this :

What the heck are you doing when she is going through those first autos?

Wiping your ass? Cleaning your nails?

Riven, jax, renekton or Darius all kill her in that time, and this is provided they are dumb enough to let her land that obvious E.

And those combos? You realize that by the time Conqueror activates for any of these then she has already used almost all her damage or spent a ton of time auto attacking? She either loses a heap of damage by activating it with abilities or she spends a huge amount of time on it with auto attacks.

You dont just want to activate conqueror, you want to use your stuff while its up to gain a massive damage boost to your combo, this is why Riven and hecarim are so good with it.

Because they can start it very damn quickly without spending too much of their combo for it.

If talking just synergies 1v1 then PTA is by far the best on Irelia, she can activate it with her Q´s and autos and it´s fast enough to not waste too much on her combo at it, and its great early game.

Good early game? That is renekton, Darius or Riven, not irelia.

Irelia is good once she has tiamant + sheen/phage, at which point she is still behind those guys.

And again, did you read anything i wrote?

Tell me, which good toplaner doesnt have something like Fiora W, Jax E or a nigh unavoidable CC like Renekton W, Garen Q, Darius E.

Heck Garen actually has both CC and a buffer in his W, Riven can animation cancel enemy CC, Darius can also buffer a lot of CC, as can urgot.

....Dude do you even know what outscale means?

It means grow stronger, and Irelia is among the weakest if we talk purely 1v1.

The only area she is good in is teamfights, but she is worse than any tank as they are specialized in it.

And again, did you read anything?

I wrote that you can easily check both OP.GG and the irelia mains subbreddit for detailed info on her matchups, the later have multiple high diamond mains who have written in to formulate how things work and play out, dont you agree they know the matchups the best by far?

Personal experience? Reeks of bias, lacks in credibility and worst of all by far, extremely lacking in sample size.

And what the hells, your comment on wits end.

"It was disgusting on her and everyone else but mainly her and yi" - is what you are saying her.

Which is just pure pullshit.

Before PBE wits end was heavily nerfed the worst offenders in abusing it were Kayle who used it to invalidate AP matchups, Jax, yi, Shyvana, Trundle, warwhick, Tryndamere and a heap of marksmen, despite the so called limitations for ranged.

Irelia was one of the two worst? Pure damn bias.

And dueling power?

Do tell me, whom does she beat 1v1, aside from ranged champs? Aside from those who are truly weak early like Mundo or Ornn that pretty much anyone beats?

I can tell ya, she loses 1v1 to malphite post the first recall, she loses to mundo post 2-3 items, she loses to jax and Fiora right from the start no matter what, she cannot beat Garen, Darius or Volibear.

I have played her, i have played Jax, i read guides, i have stalked her reddit mains page since the rework.......the only thing i did not do was watch her being streamed really.

And i used to main her before the rework, and jax,,,,,they were my two main toplaners.

And post the rework that i only recently started trying out for real i can unconditionally say, she sucks horribly hard into competent melee matchups, is insanely OP into ranged ones, and is absolutely awful generally post 4 items.

If you wana carry then Jax is by far superior in all regards be it from 1v1, to splitpushing to being a absolute beast in teamfights.-----......the only lacking thing about jax is the fun factor as well as having no style or flashiness.

Hmm, I never knew you needed exact stats for everything when making a complaint about something :o

Anyways, my bad with her passive, doesn't matter though since she stacks it extremely quickly anyways due to lane dynamics. I'll admit defeat there, I honest to god thought you could, except it DOES reset the timer which might be why I got so muddled up. However, please do not try to use ad-hominem to prove your point, as it invalidates your credibility. Insults don't prove anything and they're incredibly boring.

The difference between Zed and Irelia is that Irelia does a comparable amount of damage to Zed while building bruiser items, which is beyond obnoxious. If Zed were to do the same and it proved to be effective he would be nerfed in a heartbeat since people hate assassins, so again, blatant bias here (although Zed does need a nerf on that note).

As for your point about Kat.....Kat doesn't have any in-built sustain (outside factors excluded), has no CC (again outside factors excluded) and has to build squishy to do her job. Irelia is the polar opposite, and honestly she does a far better job than Kat does as a flanking 1v5 machine. While Kat does get more blinks, she most definitely can't use ALL of them since she's a SQUISHY champion, unlike Irelia.

Irelia vs Riven is a skill matchup, Darius vs Irelia is winnable for Irelia so long as she manipulates the wave properly; same to Renekton, and she actually beats Jax in lane (although outside of lane it does get messy).

Irelia isn't exactly comparable to a full tank, I'll give you that, she still needs some form of engage most of the time to do anything, however I still do believe she gets far too tanky while possessing so many amazing attributes.

PtA is only stronger early game, Conqueror is universally stronger past level 6.

I'll check the matchup chart out on /r/IreliaMains, however I stand by my point that OP.GG is not a reliable source for determining how good Irelia is.

Yes, but all of those champs still get CC'd, Irelia during W seems to reduce the duration.


Who does she beat 1v1? All mages, all assassins, Yasuo, the aforementioned weak top laners (Nasus, Ornn, Mundo etc.), Aatrox (ask Hashinshin about that one lmao), Jax (in lane), Tryndamere (in lane), Riven (pre 6, though quite a skill matchup), most tanks (Cho'gath, Malphite etc.), Gnar, Singed, Camille (post level 2).

Trust me, she decimates mages and assassins especially. Oh, I should've mentioned this, I specifically hate mid lane Irelia. It's high time that she gets out of mid lane as she makes the lane incredibly anti-fun unless she's perma-banned. Yeah, come to think of it it's literally just mid lane Irelia. Top lane Irelia seems to be somewhat ok, it's just the fact that she wins almost all matchups mid that makes me hate her so. The worst matchup for her mid off the top of my head would be Cassiopeia, but even then she kicks her teeth in.

If Irelia pisses off out of mid lane then I'll probably be happy with her.


As for Wit's End, I suggest that you re-read the word before the item, that being "reworked". It's just a free healing item WITH magic resist attached to it. It needs to be reverted ASAP.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

You know what "the exact stats" are?

Tangible proof, otherwise its just your word against anyone else´s, and you proved yourself to not know the real numbers or facts well enough before.

And i´d be much less drawn to be insulting if i felt you showed enough respect to take your time to actually verify your claims, which you clearly do not. Instead your constantly make baseless and incorrect statements as if they are the obvious truth.

Its like facing a wall sprouting shit, incredibly unpleasant.

And what Irelia doing comparable damage to Zed ?

Zed with his ult alone does like 1,500 to 2000 damage, that´s like Irelia´s entire combo combined, post reductions.

The main difference between the two is the fact that Irelia builds no armor pen, no lethality and she has AP based damage that she cant increase normally........Zed meanwhile is all AD, builds lethality and armor pen to get past enemy resistances which minimizes resistance reduction.

Irelia can never catch up to Zed in damage, never, because he is entirely damage focused while she splits in far too many directions like CC, like defence and even a manner of utility with her ult.

As for builds, no Irelia does not do comparable damage to Zed no matter what she builds, i already provided the numbers to prove that well enough.

What they both do as mobile melee, is kill ranged champs that lack protection if they get on them, but if protection exist then Zed is far superior as his damage greatly exceeds Irelia's.

And you know what Katarina does unlike Irelia ? Tons of AOE, meaning if she gets off properly she does way more damage than Irelia, this combined with frequently building both gunblade and death´s dance means she actually heals more too, a lot more.

Heck some even use conqueror on Katarina to heal even more to a point where she can contest Riven in healing.

Irelia vs Riven boils down to the question of if Riven is dumb enough to either let Irelia stack her passive on minions before a full engage or let Irelia hit her E, if the answer is no then irelia loses, period.

Its about as much of a skill matchup as Darius is overall, it all boils down to more of a "will the opponent make a horrible mistake and let me win or will they not?"........said horrible mistake usually being going near him which tends to mean towerfarming until laning is over or he makes a terrible mistake.

Post 6 Riven wins, because damage.

Renekton similarly only gets beaten if bad, as long as he has fury Irelia cannot outtrade him.

Wave manipulation? Does not work at all if both sides know how it works without outside intervention.

Far too tanky? Her W blocks AD damage only for a short moment, her base resistance are not high by any means and her main build is AD and health.

We´re talking Jax if talking too tanky for how much damage he deals and takes, between his R and E +item 3161 he´s ridiculous.

Yes, but all of those champs still get CC'd, Irelia during W seems to reduce the duration.

And ......again, my point with you doing 0 research whatsoever is still valid, and its still maddening.

Her W cannot be interrupted by others, that is literally all there is to it, exactly like Jax E or Fiora W, it doesnt reduce the length of CC at all.

What it does, is to buffer the CC, exactly what say Jax does if he activate´s his E just before enemy support starts to CC him while the enemy marksman shoots him, he cant move but they cant do anything about it.

Same as Irelia really,except she takes full damage from all AP sources.

Others like say Darius wont have their Q´s cancelled because stunned, or Urgot ´s charge, or a number of dashes vs stuns&roots, using an ability of your own to ignore enemy CC or start something that cant be cancelled to keep yourself active through CC, this is buffering.

Garen ´s E cant be stopped with CC.

And again, you read really nothing that i write, ......hells i wrote "whom does she beat except ranged, the really weak early champs and those who are universally beaten?"

Then you go off to ramble up "all the mages"" all the weak early picks"" all the assassins"

.....All the assassins? Well fair enough actually.

Now, as for midlane vs toplane.........like........did i not pretty much write that Irelia is pretty dang shit at almost all the melee matchups and she gets outscaled very damn hard`? Pretty sure i did?And she beats ranged matchups, because she is a mobile damage dealing diver with CC.

This means, she is only really good toplane into ranged matchups, and really good midlane where there are only ranged matchups aside from a few assassins that are overly weak against anyone that can build item 3047 resistance and item 3044 health early on.

So naturally, even with the W magic damage reduction removed and damage nerfed, she still does better midlane overall as like 40 outa 45-50 picks toplane either beat her or outscale her, hard.

For midlane she instead has a good shot at beating like ...25-30 outa 45- ish matchups.

Her entire design is anti ranged, which is partly why she is soo good in teamfights, her ability to ult ( not unconditionally) and dash in bypassing enemy frontliners to get on the enemy backline is why she is so much more amazing than say Darius or Fiora really.

She sucks awfully 1v1, she scales pretty poorly overall, but she is truly an ideal diver.

After all, the real 1v1 specialists are the skirmishers like jax/fiora, the truly hard scaling ones are the juggernauts&tanks, others usually overtake her at a point but she does have her times to shine.

Well her winrates are currently crap though and pickrates are sinking.

Wits end was reworked to be more useful for the originally intended users being the fighter class champions instead of the onhit users, present state is pretty much where that lands.

Shouldnt you be happy about more useful items for the fighter class instead of like 3-4 other using it?

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Has anyone mentioned the inexplicable 200 auto range yet? Makes her extremely difficult to trade with as any melee champ.

KidnapperMorde1 votes

Aatrox rework is also a failure, kept nothing of the old champ and is impossible to balance

pls rito revert

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox rework is also a failure, kept nothing of the old champ and is impossible to balance

pls rito revert

Aatrox is quite fun now though. But yeah, balance wise he's a mess, definitely doing better now though (like the mini-rework of the rework).

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