Here's my problem with Illaoi

HateDaddy··25 votes·2,956 views

Before you spam the downvote button and flip out, understand that several high Elo players find her to be a pain in the ass to deal with during lane phase. But she's not powerful enough currently to justify banning her but that doesn't mean that she doesn't offer incredibly frustrating gameplay elements with very little meaningful counterplay for certain champions.

Honestly, I don't even think Illaoi is overpowered simply because she gets ran over pretty hard by ranged top laners and quite frankly, because of worlds, that's what the meta has basically become excluding Rumble. But the experience of playing against her as a melee champion is so painful and you feel like you're left with almost no real options to deal with her. But in fairness to Illaoi, this isn't exclusive to her.

Many melee players feel the same about champions like Darius and Pantheon. But the big difference is, even Darius and Pantheon can be prone to losing if they manage to lose their strength (pantheons passive in an all-in or Darius' axe on his Q). But with Illaoi, as a melee champion, you're almost never in a position where you can actually fight her excluding very early levels. But once she hits about level 5, forget it, you can't fight her anymore. Trying to fight back, whether it be to protect your soul if it gets taken or to remove vessels is time where you're taking aggro you can't play around. If you fight for your soul, you likely eat some tentacles or even minion aggro and ultimately you'll lose out there. If you focus tentacles, Illaoi gets free shots at you.

Post 6 it gets worse. Yes, you can disengage from her ult but the moment you try to deny her your soul or clear a tentacle as a melee, she just all-ins you and yes, you can disengage but you can't:

A) ever fight back in this situation, which is stupid as fuck in its own right

and

B) you're gonna get chunked pretty hard. Hard enough that you can't simply just go back in and fight her. And then you sit back and are forced to deal with her spam.

and lastly

C) she is probably the best wave clearing bruiser. It's so fucking hard to push against her so she forces you to always be pushed up and eat tentacles and be in danger to fight them.

Yes, I'm aware this makes her prone to ganks. Yes I'm aware this is a predictable play pattern however, depending on ganks isn't counterplay because you can't survive on your own honestly and her predictable play leaves you with no options to fight her back. I know how to play against her, the issue is I have no real options as a melee champion.

Also, before you start pointing out that her 5v5 is easily outplayed, I know. Good Illaois in high Elo don't ever 5v5. They push non stop and eventually they get to a point where they can straight up 1v2 your top and jungler by pressing R. Even when you disengage and look to go back in, the sheer amount of uncontested pressure she provides just by existing with almost no real way to play around it as a melee makes her impossible to deal with.

I shouldn't auto lose for playing a melee champion. This game isn't fucking rock/paper/scissors. Even extreme melee lane bullies like pantheon and Darius can be played around. Pantheon is prone to dying in all-ins, especially post 6. Darius HAS to land his outer Qs to win fights. But with Illaoi, trying to fight her is a death losing effort because of the fact you're left with no real options. Ranged champions can simply click her tentacles and never be in real danger of her but melees don't have that benefit.

And lastly, her fucking comeback potential is so retarded. I've had games as Nasus, Jax and even Malphite where I've been up 2-3 kills on her through jungle pressure or early cheese where it doesn't matter post 6 because she shoves harder than I do and I still can't jump on her and kill her for being too close cuz she pops R and chunks the shit out of me.

All around she just isn't in a healthy spot. Auto losing vs ranged but auto winning vs 98% of the melee roster isn't good gameplay. I think her kit has very interesting elements and I really do love her character despite all the jokes I make but it's not being executed properly and it's become this binary as fuck kit that basically becomes a game of rock/paper/scissors at champ select and that should never be the case in general match-ups.

All in all, as I said, I don't think she's overpowered but she's not fun to play against at all as a melee champion and the experience really is so frustrating that I've considered leaving games in the past. I've never left a game in 5k+ games.

68 Comments

Desolas Arterius8 votes

The thing with Illaoi is she's supposed to bully melee champs. Just like Gnar and Darius do to melee champs. Yasuo is a good example of a champion designed to counter immobile mages, and Kassadin used to be a mage slayer as well.

It's not exactly a bad design. She's a juggernaut so she's meant to bully and deal damage, but not offer anything teamfight wise.

I know it seems lame to have to rely on a jungler, but that's the simplest way to beat Illaoi and get her behind. Most get cocky with their bully potential and over extend almost all the time. In those cases you should farm under the tower and freeze the lane till your jungler comes to help. It does suck but that's usually how you deal with every juggernaut in top lane. Punish them for overextending since they have no way to get out without wasting flash.

If anything Illaoi is actually weaker than during her launch. They nerfed her hard to reduce the amount of bullying she does with her E. Because of that she's fairly healthy in terms of play rate/win rate. She isn't played every game, and is more of a niche pick when you don't really want to rely on your team/jungler. She's great for split pushing, but absolutely terrible for team fighting. Which is fine.

It would be a major issue if she was great at both, hence the nerf to her E which gave her a small boost to her teamplay potential.

I do agree she's annoying to play against, but she's not that difficult if you know her weakness which are: no gap closer/escapes, poor mana regen, no teamfighting or cc, over extends consistently, also item 3165 and/or item 3033 are your best friends against her. Makes her tentacle regen nonexistent.

I play Illaoi a lot so even I'm guilty of overextending when I'm getting too cocky about shutting down my opponent :P

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

^^^ This.

Tentacle regen negation OP.

Desolas Arterius2 votes

Yep. Even Ignite counters her regen and makes her ult/tentacles worthless. Without her health regen from her tentacles she wont last long in the fight.

Oh what's that? She ulted when me and my jungler are trying to fight her? Here let me just ignite you and watch your health drop to 0~

EZPZ lol

Nkeyo6 votes

Illaoi has what is the single most glaring counterplay in the game: movement. Being able to effectively sidestep tentacles is all you need to do to win against Illaoi, or just out sustain and don't go in until she's burnt up her mana which is also a horrible weakness. The biggest thing you don't do is mindlessly dive her, especially if she lands E.

Once she misses E, if you go in she'll probably W you immediately, you move where you need to to avoid the tentacle slam, and then you fight back and auto win pre 6. Post 6, that gets kinda hard, but it's still able to be done, and it's pretty much the same thing where you side step and auto win. Build swifty boots, or run ghost and pop it when you all in, or run exhaust and just use it when she ults, or play a highly mobile top laner such as Riven, Singed, or Teemo and dodge with ease. Playing Darius? When she hits W step back dodging the tentacle then E her into you and win. Pantheon? You picked a low mobility dive champion into a juggernaut? You deserve to feed. Jax? Dodge E, back off when she uses W, gap close with Q, win trade. Post 6? Go in, Q out when she ults and wait it out, go in while it's cooling and win. Nasus? Rush IBG and face tank her whole ult while you Q her to death. If she rushes Black Cleaver then her regular damage will be garbage without her tentacles, and she'll be much more vulnerable to ganks since she'll be squishier.

I regularly carry as Illaoi top, I regularly 1v2 the enemy top and jg, and kill pretty much everyone else that comes up as well. Why is this? Most junglers are either assassins or tanks, both have to dive, and that plays right into Illaoi, same with most top laners right now. She thrives against low-mobility dive champions, and struggles against high mobility and ranged champions because most of her damage comes from her tentacles, and anyone able to avoid them consistently just auto wins, melee or not. Quite frankly, if you dodge her E most people can kill her through her ult anyway; For the purpose of spawning tentacles, her E counts as a champion and spawns one, and if you and your spirit both happen to get hit by a tentacle at the same time the damage is massive. If her E gets denied it's incredibly crippling to her.

Lugg3 votes

Hitting skill shots with Illaoi is actually pretty easy. You just wait until they go in to CS and hit them with your Q. They either give up the CS or eat the damage. It's a win either way. On average I would say that I land 75% of her Qs.

I agree with the OP that a lot of the melee champs have VERY little counterplay to her.

Nkeyo6 votes

Fake her out, just move in like you're going to cs, then back up and let her waste her Q. She burns her mana very fast early and mid game just spamming skills, you might miss a cs or two, but once she runs out she's just a free kill. Alternatively, bait the E then just engage on her if you dodge it and out trade or kill her. Her E starts with a 20s cooldown, and while it's down her dueling power is trashed. A pre 6 gank when she has wasted E is about as free as it gets.

Miraweave2 votes

{quoted}

Fake her out, just move in like you're going to cs, then back up and let her waste her Q. She burns her mana very fast early and mid game just spamming skills, you might miss a cs or two, but once she runs out she's just a free kill. Alternatively, bait the E then just engage on her if you dodge it and out trade or kill her. Her E starts with a 20s cooldown, and while it's down her dueling power is trashed. A pre 6 gank when she has wasted E is about as free as it gets.

"Move in like you're going to CS" still results in you losing CS. Unless she's dumb and goes for it when there aren't any minions that are going to die anyway.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Except that illaoi is going to lose CS to if you know how to wave management. If she does this she will push the wave, leaving her open for you to freeze it and nail her on point for some ganks.

Lugg2 votes

You can't fake her out unless she's an idiot. If you don't actually move in to get the CS, you lose it.

The key to beating Illaoi is to kill the tentacles as soon as they spawn, avoiding the spirit grab and tentacle smash, and running away when she ults. If you can do these, she isn't that tough. However, good players make this hard to do.

LimpingWólf1 votes

when i play against illoai i usually go Renekton ignore her tenticle spawns make her feel comfortable, wait for her to use a Q and then dodge it or she misses an E and then just all in her, she Ws with her tenticles spawned i use my second E dodge them stun her maybe she throws a Q im right on-top her i just stop what Im doing walk out of it then i go back to killing the crap out of her, if its a long trade and she ults I Burst her When tentacle smash comes up on map I move in between them staying on top of her its pretty damn easy and fun. I don't ever have to worry about faking her out.. as I can just stop what i am in the middle of doing and walk out of all of her dmg.

Lugg1 votes

Ren is one of the VERY few melee champs that can deal with her simple due to his double dash allowing him to get away from the ult and his stun to interrupt her. Any melee that can't get away from her ult quickly is pretty much screwed against her.

Requiemsfire1 votes

The issue with the concept of baiting skills out is that you're relying on them making the mistake of failing to use their abilities appropriately and when you try and force it to happen you run the risk of being caught up and being punished for it even harder. That while avoiding skill shots is counterplay in its own way, it shouldn't be the only accessible counterplay to one's kit.

Nkeyo1 votes

If she's not actively using her abilities to capitalize on the fact that she's a lane bully then it's just a farm fest, assuming you're a dive champion; if you're not you can win that matchup pretty easily by sidestepping and just using your range. The fact of the matter is that she is going to use her abilities in lane instead of trying to kill you from full hp, and they are dodgeable, so dodge them. In addition to that, she auto pushes the wave with her abilities, and even her autos. So freeze, because she's free with a gank pre 6. Post 6, you can do pretty much anything you want except dive her.

Don't like having to actually move when you're fighting? Too busy smashing your mouse against the desk and slapping your hand on your keyboard trying to attack faster? Freezing too complex? Don't want to play a ranged champ top? Well there's this cool thing called armor that makes her do less damage. Wow!. Doesn't fit into your build path and you can't figure out how to dive into her, playing into her biggest strength, and still win anyway? Well then I guess there's no counter play since you refuse to use any of it.

Here are top lane champions that destroy Illaoi:

Any ranged champion + a handful of braincells Teemo Singed Post early Nasus Dr. Mundo Lissandra Yorick Early game Fiora Ryze

Champions that go pretty even:

Darius Garen Graves Tank Ekko Yasuo Renekton Kled Cho'gath Alistar

Champions that get dumpstered:

Any dive champion that isn't a juggernaut Post early Riven Non-tank Ekko Non-tank Yasuo Mid to late game Fiora Tryndamere Trundle Aaxtrox Post early Irelia Post early Lee Sin

LimpingWólf2 votes

illoai 95% skill shot. Leaves red icons to dodge all of her dmg and healing. Her ult is literally the funnest thing to go up against, dodge maybe 1 or 2 tenticle smash's and shes dead.

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

Yeah Darius and Pantheon are really annoying to lane against but you can still beat them if you play it right. Against Illaoi there is nothing you can really do except for farm at your turret and avoid getting your soul pulled. Forget about ganking her after 6 because it's just free double kills. When you try to trade with her in lane it's basically a 3v1 at all times because she can press W and have her two nearby tentacles do tons of damage to you which guarantees winning the trade considering she gets healed from it too.

The heal on her tentacles is especially frustrating because it makes it really hard to all in her when she's drain tanking all of your damage with her heal. Going in with a gank just makes it so she can heal off of two people at once. Pantheon makes me wanna rip my hair out but Illaoi is just infinitely worse. She is manageable outside of lane but laning phase I just wanna afk until it's over.

Linna Excel5 votes

I've got a fair question about Illaoi: what is her counterplay?

statelesskiller2 votes

literally dont fight her. like just DONT feed her kills. dont fight her. give up some CS most people out scale her as long as you dont die to her

Jet Sett1 votes

And there lies the issue at hand.

Ulquiorra9957 votes

What makes that issue so different from other early champions? Don't fight them early and outscale them late feels like a good tradeoff. And that is done especially easy with her - while she does more damage than most other lane bullies, she also has no way to force you to fight her. Darius has his pull, Gnar has a slow and a gapcloser, Pantheon has a gapcloser with a stun attached. Illaoi has nothing - you can literally walk away from her.

YumaS2Astral5 votes

Well, at least Illaoi does not have means to force you to fight, right?

Astôlfo4 votes

Kill her tentacle spawns. Don't fight inside a place with multiple passively spawned tentacles. Don't fight inside her ultimate. Dodge her E before you try to fight her. Get Grievous Wounds/armor penetration. Kite her at range. CC her.

Miudmon3 votes

{quoted}

Kill her tentacle spawns. Don't fight inside a place with multiple passively spawned tentacles. Don't fight inside her ultimate. Dodge her E before you try to fight her. Get Grievous Wounds/armor penetration. Kite her at range. CC her.

to add on to that - pre-6, should she miss her e, which is fairly easy to Dodge, you can very much go ham on her the next 20 seconds or so. a lot of her dueling power lay on that spirit. don't be afraid to simply walk away should she ult, either. besides the short w dash, she has no mobillity.

LimpingWólf3 votes

Wrong you can definatly fight her in her tenticles. And in her ult. wait for the red icons from tenticles move inbetween them and shit on her. Rinse and repeat, anything beats her with patient smart trading.......

Astôlfo2 votes

You can, it's just a lot harder.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Its like a boss fight lol.

Talisid1 votes

Riven and Yasuo can probably manage that but its pretty difficult for low mobility top laners.

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NW8kEliG,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-10-04T02:03:31.338+0000)

I've got a fair question about Illaoi: what is her counterplay?

Dodged her E? Slam her face in. Didnt dodge her E? Run.

LimpingWólf5 votes

mobility dude how the hell are people still having trouble playing against her. She is 100% skill shot. Next time your in lane against her focus on dodging her tenticles and trading. Easy matchup counter for illoai Renekton.... e around her tenticles during her Ult. The problem is people just sit in her ults and don't move.... here is the problem you have you all in her and get tunnel vision she ults are you to focused on bursting her to stop your auto attacks to move out of her tenticles you just continue to stay in them and heal her until she shits on you....

Anu3isII4 votes

Winning the laning phase doesn't mean Auto-Win the game though.

There are many match-ups that feel unfair to play, but there are methods to play around them. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to adapt to the match-up, especially teammates. If you have a coordinated team, she is much weaker.

Nagoh Shan4 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi/Top

Looking at Illaoi counters, half of the ten highest winrate counters are melee. Two of the ranged counters in the top ten are close ranged, in Swain and Graves. So 7 of ten of Illaoi's worst matchups like to be in close range.

I used to spam the hell out of Illaoi, and one of the biggest mistakes I saw people make was this:

But with Illaoi, as a melee champion, you're almost never in a position where you can actually fight her excluding very early levels. But once she hits about level 5, forget it, you can't fight her anymore. Trying to fight back, whether it be to protect your soul if it gets taken or to remove vessels is time where you're taking aggro you can't play around. If you fight for your soul, you likely eat some tentacles or even minion aggro and ultimately you'll lose out there. If you focus tentacles, Illaoi gets free shots at you.

People think she's some sort of god when she E's them, and they refuse to fight when they're actually stronger. I always saw her E as a release valve, because if I'm getting pressured by my opponent too much, landing an E automatically makes them scared for some God unknowable reason, when they should just take the engage and kill me.

I kind of hope to see her played this worlds as a counter to some of the dive comps. TSM vs RNG would have been an interesting Illaoi game I think. 4 people dive right into you, and you're just living the Illaoi dream with 4 melee's wanting to be as close to you as possible with an Ori shield and ult on standby.

Lugg3 votes

I had a game with Illaoi where I took 7 towers and all 2 inhibs by myself. But nah, she's balanced.

Astôlfo16 votes

That means nothing without any other contextual information.

Arakadia3 votes

Well said.

ltmetal3 votes

Do I think Illaoi is too strong? No. Do I think her matchups between melee and ranged are too polarizing? Yes. Here are some balance changes I humbly suggest to make her less whacked out.

  1. Give her tentacles 3 health, make melee autos deal 1.5 bars (similar to Teemo shrooms).
  2. Change Test of Spirit to time out much faster when she takes a melee auto. Increase cooldown when failing to create a vessel, decrease cooldown when succeeding.
  3. Charge Illaoi mana for each tentacle that swings as a result of Harsh Lesson, reducing her ability to shove.
  4. Create a range indicator visible to enemies and Illaoi around her tentacles. Nobody seems to realize that Illaoi is super dependent on positioning, and forecasting to her enemies when she wants to trade would do a lot for this.
The Governer4 votes

{quoted}

Do I think Illaoi is too strong? No. Do I think her matchups between melee and ranged are too polarizing? Yes. Here are some balance changes I humbly suggest to make her less whacked out.

  1. Give her tentacles 3 health, make melee autos deal 1.5 bars (similar to Teemo shrooms).
  2. Change Test of Spirit to time out much faster when she takes a melee auto. Increase cooldown when failing to create a vessel, decrease cooldown when succeeding.
  3. Charge Illaoi mana for each tentacle that swings as a result of Harsh Lesson, reducing her ability to shove.
  4. Create a range indicator visible to enemies and Illaoi around her tentacles. Nobody seems to realize that Illaoi is super dependent on positioning, and forecasting to her enemies when she wants to trade would do a lot for this.

I like all of your suggestions except for 3 and 4. If Illaoi happens to spawn more tentacles than usual (especially during her ultimate where she can use her W on a 2 second cooldown), 3 will drain her mana fast that she won't be able to do anything at all, making the entire point of picking her pointless, unless it is done while buffing her mana pool.

4 creates a lot of visual clutter which is not only confusing to the enemies but also to Illaoi.

1st Movement2 votes

i treat illaoi as freelo easy to gank

Take exh to outtrade and survive

Rivuo8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaver MHX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NW8kEliG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-03T21:58:47.347+0000)

i treat illaoi as freelo easy to gank

Take exh to outtrade and survive

You have obviously never fought an illaoi past silver.

Shes literally made to 2v1.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Marksmen have more ridiculous comeback potential you know. Also she's gotta back sometime; use her disappearance to remove any tentacles on the field, early game her passive has a long cooldown. Treat her like a melee version of heimerdinger and move to avoid aoe. At least her attacks are dodgable unlike some other melee champions.

the weeaboo2 votes

There's this thing called dodging her E and tentacles, both of which have rather long casting animations. Even if she destroys the soul the tentacles are pretty much dodged by standing still until it spawns then sidestepping. Don't engage on her in an area where she has a wall tentacle

LimpingWólf2 votes

Honestly illoai isn't bad for melee champs especially Renekton, Renekton just shits on her with his mobility. All you have to do to beat illoa is dodge her skill shots. she is almost 100% skill shot and the best part is you know where he abilities are going to land. When she ults take a second to watch were her tentacles are going to land... move in-between them and then burst her hell even just aa her to death during the phase she wont get any hp back as long as you dodge and she only is gonna hit you with her W that isn't going to do a great deal of dmg as its maxed last, and all you have to do is wait to dodge the tentacle (all the dmg from her w...). she can be toyed with fairly easily so long as you are mobile enough to move in-between the red icons on your summoner. bad match ups against illoai anything that stacks health early and is immobile... but still everything is a skill match-up in lane as she is an entire skill shot based bruiser.

Dracocrash1 votes

IMo they just need to cap illaois healing against multiple targets for hitting a tentacle, like darius is capped at 3 champions (i believe) to receive healing from his Q, illaoi should have a cap too..

Ulquiorra9955 votes

Darius still heals more from hitting 3 champions than Illaoi does for landing 7 tentacle hits.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

She has a cap. No matter how many tentacles hit it is always 5% healing.

Dracocrash1 votes

oh. I was not aware of that lol. I just felt like she healed more with multiple people, must have been cause her ult + more people = more tentacles = more healing.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

"98% of the melee roster"

Darius feels good to be in the 2% that can duel her Darius

Ralanr1 votes

Just like how so few melee can duel Darius.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Just like how so few melee can duel Darius.

Eh a good amount can.

Illaoi, trundle, jax, yasuo, riven, irelia (though she has a bit of a disadvantage) and renekton can all duel him. That's already a sizable portion of the melee roster.

The thing with juggernauts is that they can abuse pretty much 100% of the tank roster since their damage output makes them threatening and their inherent tankiness far exceeds early game tank base damages.

Ralanr1 votes

I'm pretty sure Yasuo shouldn't be able to duel Darius early game. In fact I'm certain that leads to Yasuo heavily losing lane.

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Yeah. As a Sion main I have learned several times the hard way not to fight 1v1 vs Illaoi. I can doge her skill shots all day but she is going to land a few if I ever try to use my abilities to fight and probably regen some of her health in the process. My biggest problem with her is it never seems like I have a window to fight her. If I'm close to her I'll have to be moving and not attacking if I want to survive.

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