so we're nerfing teleport because it's used by everyone

D357R0Y3R·Jul 13, 2018·40 votes·12,209 views

why not just leave it as it is? that's what we did with flash and everyone is happy with it

we need teleport or the game would be even more snowbally

54 Comments

The WhamboozlerJul 13, 201812 votes

They have nerfed flash several times, actually.

Also flash being on everyone doesn't snowball the GAME. Teleport being on everyone can... because it lets a snowballing lane snowball other lanes, thus snowballing the entire game.

I'm not saying the choice is right or wrong... but do attempt to understand that it is not the same beast as flash and the problem/issue is not the same as flash being on everyone.

LordGeovanniJul 14, 20181 votes

They have so why doesnt it have a longer cooldown compared to every other summoner in the game and is the same cooldown as tp which has a 4 second channel time no Rune to give it a secondary effect and Only taken by top lane and now mid lane.

The WhamboozlerJul 15, 20181 votes

I won't pretend to be an expert on game design but let me see if I can muddle through my best attempt at an explanation here.

Teleport isn't strong because teleport is too strong. Teleport is strong because the meta has been forced into one where teleport is pretty much mandatory for many roles to not fall behind and be at a severe disadvantage.

Now that the game is more about teamplay over individual ability to carry (a push riot has been intentionally making, and you can argue for or against it being a good thing) teleport is just the best spell for getting a TEAM lead. Teleport ganks weren't a thing when nearly any laner could snowball on their own and carry the game. Now the whole TEAM needs to be strong, and being able to tele in to fights from sidelanes or to gank other lanes suddenly no matter where you are is very valuable.

Teleport won't really be "balanced" as long as the meta favors the things teleport allows you to do. If teleport is on too long a cooldown to be efficient, people will drop it entirely. If it's on a short enough cooldown to be useful, it'll be almost mandatory. There's not really a change that can make middle of the road balanced barring making the game one where snowballing to solo carry a game is possible but coordinated teamplay is somehow EQUALLY powerful. People will all lean towards whichever is seen as stronger, so good fuckin' luck making both of those strats equally valid. If you can figure out how to do that, please let us all know.

LordGeovanniJul 16, 20181 votes

So how come everything else gets to be meta when the meta favors it and nothing else can be used but when the meta favors Teleport riot nerfs it several times every time. Flash is always meta so why isnt that nerfed for always being meta and crowding out other combinations.

The WhamboozlerJul 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Whamboozler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NUlANEyW,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-13T21:44:42.450+0000)

They have nerfed flash several times, actually.

Since you seem to have forgotten.

And ALSO since you seem to have forgotten.... Flash being strong means one person can occasionally make a slick outplay, catch someone they normally wouldn't... escape someone they normally wouldn't... etc. It's a PERSONAL spell. It makes ONE champion do a little dash, essentially.

Teleport puts you nearly anywhere on the god-damned map... meaning Teleport by definition almost ALWAYS affects a TON MORE THINGS than one person. It lets you push a lane but also not deprive your team of your presence. That fact alone is 90% of the reason why it's problematic. Because it gives you wave control and massive amounts of pressure while not depriving you of the ability to defend your team if a fight happens. It can also gank lanes to snowball them, pop you back to lane to avoid giving up a lead if you have to B and a ton of other useful utility things. But mostly it is that ONE thing where it lets you pressure the whole map. It enables an entire playstyle and changes almost everything about the game... and in a way that is rather punishing and lose-lose if you're up against it. Respond in force to the splitpusher and you're probably wasting your time AND going to lose objectives or the like to his team while you do... or ignore him and he'll either take all yo' shit or just appear in the fight anyways. There isn't a proper answer to it except to let him not get ahead in the first place.

If you personally cannot see how an ability that lets you cross the entire map to have a presence anywhere you need to be in the game is a little more powerful and influential to the overall strategy of the game and thus the success of your team than an (admittedly instant) ability with a longer cooldown that moves you roughly the distance of an Urgot auto attack. CAN a well timed flash win the game? Sure. By getting a nice pick or setting up a great wombo or something... but teleport has SO MUCH MORE utility and is useful for so much more than just getting a little distance to hit/dodge something or hop a wall.

I mean, fuck... my loadout any time I can get away with it is to take BOTH. Why don't you?

LordGeovanniJul 20, 20181 votes

Your logic is that because teleport can help the team it has to be nerfed more bot there are many flash combos in the game that help allies. Malphite flash R Annie flash R passive stun Sejuani flash Q. none of those are only personal out plays. and even in the case of personal outplays it undoes the work one or more plays do to set up a good play and they dont get that benifit to have them snowball instead of the other way around where they get snowballed on for various reasons. Teleport is only strong because of the way riot is forceing the meta to go. Teleport isnt a viable way to get across the map for fights because of the redicilously long channel time they put on it and the increasingly short amount of time it takes for damage to do anything. Tp is also less nessicary for alot of new champions because of lots of unconditional mobility on low cooldowns and cost to just cross the map quickly

The WhamboozlerJul 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Teleport is only strong because of the way riot is forceing the meta to go. Teleport isnt a viable way to get across the map for fights because of the redicilously long channel time they put on it and the increasingly short amount of time it takes for damage to do anything. Tp is also less nessicary for alot of new champions because of lots of unconditional mobility on low cooldowns and cost to just cross the map quickly

Ok. You're dangerously close to actually understanding what I'm saying here. Teleport IS strong because Riot has been pushing for a more team-oriented game for a long time. Back in the day, you could stomp lane and solo carry from... well... almost any lane. Now stomping lane and non-stop pushing your lane doesn't win you the game like it used to. You need to use your power in teamfights, or draw so many people to deal with you that your team is basically ASSURED to win fights if you do. I said ALL of this already. I am glad to see that you seem to agree... or at least are aware of what I'm talking about.

On to the second thing though... Did you just say that teleport was "not viable for getting across the map quickly"? WUT. That is literally the ONLY THING the spell does. Oh sure, if the enemy springs a fight on your team and you're not prepared beforehand it's got a long enough channel time that you might show up with the fight already lost... but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work dude. Walking from top lane to bot lane sure as FUCK takes longer than teleporting there... even if you're relatively close to a base base and the distance between is fairly short. But again, teleport is strong during LANE and the midgame pushing phases, when the fighting tends to take place in or around the middle of each lane and thus you are often as far from the other side of the map as you can physically BE in the game.

But let me ask this instead of trying to figure out what you smoked to decide teleport wasn't good at the only thing it does. Why are you so freakin' hung up on teleport and seem to want it on a lower cooldown or buffed in some way. Clearly you must think the spell has some kind of use or you wouldn't be arguing that it needs improving. You clearly use it or WANT to use it for something. So what do you feel teleport is good for and why do you feel it needs a buff to do it's thing better? Not even bein' sarcastic here. If you don't take it to splitpush while still being able to join teamfights if needed... why do you use the spell?

LordGeovanniJul 21, 20181 votes

Because it doesnt get you across the map quickly in the terms of an ongoing fight by time teleport takes effect you have taken 70% of a team fight trying to get there

The WhamboozlerJul 22, 20181 votes

And this is still faster than WALKING THERE. That is my point. Teleport gives you the option of coming into a teamfight despite being elsewhere putting pressure on the map. Therefore... teleport is a spell that's primary use is putting pressure on the map. And putting pressure on the map is strong. Being able to be anyplace you need to be in about a 4 second channel time is very good. Yeah, it won't save your team if they pick a dumb fight and die before you arrive... but flash won't save you from death if you're fighting the whole team with no place to run. Ignite probably won't win a teamfight for you by itself either... in fact it's mostly only good for the heal reduction once laning is over.

Also, if you have teleport and you are doin' the splitpush thing with your team floating around someplace else... it's not THAT hard to watch the map and see when a fight seems to be breaking out and teleport in a bit early. Sometimes you coming in will prevent a fight entirely and the enemy will bail. Sometimes they'll dive in anyway and you can turn it around. Sometimes you'll just tele in and die. I can't tell you when is best to do it... but if you only ever try to tele into a fight AFTER the enemy has say.... malphite/Yasuo comboed your team and is cleaning them up, you're doing it wrong. I assure you, it is possible if you're paying attention and half-decent at predicting what people are/will do to teleport to something other than a pile of corpses. If you can't manage it, maybe teleport isn't for you...

But if you feel it's not going to help you out, why do you care about it at all? Just take a spell you feel IS worthwhile. Clearly you like the spell, want to use the spell or see how the spell is strong if you're pushing so hard about it.

Rıots Bad ClientJul 14, 20188 votes

Just buff every other non offensive summoner.

summoner 6 summoner 7 summoner 3 summoner 21 summoner 1 ( I know you can use these aggressively)

Seer of MindJul 14, 20187 votes

We're not nerfing Ignite because its very balanced.

The WhamboozlerJul 21, 20181 votes

Not sure if sarcasm or genuine statement.

Would you kindly explain which and why you feel it is/isn't balanced? I'm curious.

Seer of MindJul 21, 20181 votes

Its that ignite is just free point and click true damage, adding to the burst that assassins get for free, its scaling is very good and its cool down is short, which in my opinion is unhealthy in this current meta as it can make laning against someone who has ignite and you don't, feel oppressive because at any moment they could jump on you and almost all of your health is gone, to only be finished off by true damage.

Its basically a challenging smite without the auto to activate. Thoughts?

The WhamboozlerJul 22, 20181 votes

I mean... all you really did was explain what ignite does, but k. So you feel it's unbalanced because it... kills you too well? I mean, that's ALL it does and I can't speak for everyone but as the game goes on it seems to ME like Ignite becomes less and less useful.

Hear me out. Early on, fights are one and lost by narrow margins, so yeah an extra bit o' true damage VERY much helps. Not having ignite when the enemy does often means fighting them is a losing proposition for you. But I kinda think that's FAIR. I mean, the enemy took a summoner spell that has NO USE outside of letting him 1v1 you a little better. If you want to 1v1 people in lane.... take ignite. That's what it's there for. If you're taking other spells, it HAS to be because you are admitting that other spells are more useful overall... otherwise why not take ignite yourself? If you feel the enemy having ignite makes it IMPOSSIBLE to lane against them without them killing you, um... either you're being too aggro against someone you should know is stronger than you... or they're outplaying you to put you in a bad spot and kill you with it. Both of those seem fair to me.

BECAUSE ignite falls off. It's still nice outside of lane... able to get a kill here or there and all that... but the longer the game goes on the less ignite matters outside of it's healing reduction. As tanky champs and bruisers get more burly the small amount of true damage ignite does matters MUCH less... and squishy champs kinda die just fine without you dropping a summoner spell on them. It's still useful and the healing reduction especially can be INCREDIBLY useful in some situations, but it's hardly a "I have this so I win" button. It is a single target heal reducer with a little true damage DoT attached. Ignite doesn't win teamfights often.... unless it is VITAL that you burn down an ulting Mundo or Swain or something. It is a spell that mostly strong early and meant to snowball people who take it, with the risk being that taking it and NOT snowballing leaves you far less useful overall than if you took Teleport... it's debatably less useful in some situations than Heal or even Exhaust.

So yeah, while I see why you dislike it I don't really agree. It can be frustrating to play against some over-aggressive snowball champion that takes ignite and jumps down your throat for kills whenever he can. Doubly so if he succeeds. Losing a game to that kinda shit can feel awful... and I think that's what you're doing. You're equating "this is really frustrating" with "This is too strong". That or you believe things that are frustrating to deal with are bad for the game. A valid perspective I suppose, but if that's the case half the champion pool needs to go and not everyone is gonna agree on what "acceptable" levels of frustration are.

I don't think Ignite is too strong. I think it does exactly what it's supposed to to and taking it is a fair tradeoff for losing the utility of teleport or the defensive capabilities of Heal or Exhaust. I mean, there is even a summoner spell that specifically counters Ignite. Barrier. No one takes it... but it's there. Just because ignite is good at something doesn't mean it's too strong... even if that "something" that it's good at is "killing people". It's got tradeoffs, weaknesses and counters. I think it's fine. A slight cooldown increase wouldn't ruin it or anything, but I don't really feel it merits it.

Seer of MindJul 22, 20181 votes

Ignite doesn't fall off for one, its TRUE DAMAGE. The point is if you take teleport now, and you're facing someone with ignite, you're gonna be useless because you can't go in for kills because of that free damage they get for a shorter cooldown than your teleport. You can't compare Heal to Ignite because it applies Grievous Wounds. Ignite's damage scaling should either be lower or its cooldown increased.

The WhamboozlerJul 22, 20181 votes

Ignite most certainly DOES fall off, sir... true damage or not. It's single target, has a long cooldown and it's a DoT so it can't kill you instantly unless you're REALLY low already, in which case you were likely about to die already. Early on when you're fighting someone 1v1 in lane they'll have few options if ignited other than to see if they can tank it with their base stats. This is when ignite is most useful. For getting kills in lane in 1v1's and snowballing.

Later on, ignite still hurts a fair bit but when people are grouping up the likelyhood of people being able to weather an ignite are much, MUCH higher. Anyone building health is more resistant to it, because health stacking is best defense against non-% based true damage. The champs who haven't built health are usually squishy glass cannons that haven't built much of any defenses at all, and if you're a snowbally burst champ (you know, the kinda that usually like to lane with ignite so they can snowball) you likely have enough damage in your build come mid game to blow up a squishy without slapping the true damage on them too. Does it help? Sure! Is it as essential as those early 1v1's? No. Hence... falling off. Falling off doesn't mean "It becomes useless". Ignite come lategame is still useful... it's just MOST useful early.

I'm sorry dude, but I still disagree with you. Ignite is good when snowballing is good... and it's lackluster when the game is less about stomping lane. It's not broken. It's not too strong. If you keep dying to it you're probably being too aggro against an enemy laner. If you're upset that you can't duel someone who takes ignite but you yourself are unwilling to take ignite then you're fundamentally flawed in how you perceive game balance. Game balance is that the guy who keeps killing you with ignite gave up a more useful utility spell for the ability to do that, and you either need to respect that extra strength he has on you or take ignite yourself if you want to be able to fight on even footing.

But I'll ask you this outright, because I feel more than anything it will show what the problem is. If ignite is so strong, why aren't you taking it yourself? Why whine about it? Why not just use it if it's the best?

Either you're going to say it's because you want/need the ability of another summoner spell too... which kinda makes my point about them being balanced if you find another spell useful enough to take over this "OP" spell you're complaining about. OR you'll bust out some lame "because broken and I don't want to abuse broken mechanica blah blah blah" thing... which is frankly just dumb and the desperate fall back argument of someone who HAS no reasons for their argument they just wanna complain.

RexxieeJul 13, 20184 votes

Except teleport can be used to snowball other lanes.

Like if you play bot and they have a fed top laner with TP you can never do anything aggressive.

ModWuksJul 13, 201833 votes

On the other hand, shouldn’t we encourage team-focused play just as much as solo play?

Akali is SO HOTJul 13, 201815 votes

No fuk my teammates they all bronzelords 0/10 do not like

TheyCallMeJukerJul 14, 20182 votes

"I is was seson 3 silver 5 sMurF jSut FOllLoW Ma cALlS i CRary"

koshkyraJul 14, 20181 votes

That's such a pretty color!

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 14, 20184 votes

Because tp is a huge safety net that can also be used to tp to another lane and snowball you team out of control.

AirKingNeoJul 14, 20183 votes

plus some top laners take ignire instead of it even

Summonah12369Jul 13, 20182 votes

In ARURF atleast everyone uses it.

wildfox99Jul 13, 20182 votes

that's what we did with flash and everyone is happy with it

i'm not [sg-ahri-3]

btw i think an example with summoner 14 would fit better the argument

NY64Jul 14, 20182 votes

I think it would be better to nerf it by giving it like 5500 range (Same range as TF ult and Tahm Kench Ult at level 2). So that way it can’t be used from top lane to bot lane, or used for back dooring.

Backup4nowJul 14, 20182 votes

that's what we did with flash and everyone is happy with it

I don't know, I'd rather see flash gone forever... It's only ever been a balance issue, with some entire champions being balanced and created around it to this day. Either that or it's a get-out-of-jail-free card for ranged characters or a no-counterplay instant bullshit attack on characters that need to normally have good positioning, like flashing with a Darius Q or Taric stun.

Automated RivenJul 14, 20181 votes

I would actually prefer that teleport be completely removed. It allows for an individual to snowball but its severely harder for said individual to snowball the entire game while also protecting his tower. Also teleport is way to much of a crutch for certain matchups. Being able to back and tp back to lane is pretty bad design imho.

The other possibility is having a starting item that allows for 1 teleport which can only target towers. so that you get your shitty matchup out of lane without too much punishment but you lose the utility later in the game where it really becomes a problem.

InfernapeJul 14, 20182 votes

If Riot removed TP, they'd straight up nerf Shen to the bottom of the barrel because he'd be pick or ban in competitive.

Automated RivenJul 14, 20181 votes

Unless they simply diversified team comps as well. You could pick a duelist into him and counter him in the split and out macro. Since he would only have his ult it would force people to play around it. I still think it would be better to remove TP and balance the game from there.

LarrietJul 15, 20181 votes

Is Shen ult global, or just long ranged? Because I can imagine Galio being similar unless it's because his is global.

chipndip1Jul 15, 20182 votes

Global off allies, so anywhere his allies are is where Shen can be.

LordGeovanniJul 16, 20181 votes

Shen is global Galio is long ranged

GayFluffyUnicornJul 14, 20181 votes

Then jayce, kennen, gnar, teemo need to be removed from the game.

4evaJul 14, 20181 votes

[deleted]

rtbf221651412Jul 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

teleport is much more effective for general snowballing unless you are low elo where players are brainless.

Well it's also useful for** defense**.

imprôviseJul 14, 20181 votes

nerf yasuo to the ground because he's the most popular champion

FilDaFunkJul 14, 20181 votes

Promotes teamplay!

MalakJul 14, 20181 votes

I see more ignite, flash, and smite than anything. Nerf plz????

LarrietJul 15, 20181 votes

I feel like having 1 Summoner Spell being default is OK, if not ideal; but having BOTH Summoner Spells be the same every game seems like a problem (Jungling aside maybe, but I don't have the knowledge to say whether it's OK or not).

No comment on how they balanced it, though. Just the "take it every game" thing.

TegashJul 15, 20181 votes

If Riot is nerfing summoner spells simply because they're used by everyone, shouldn't they start with Ignite?

Oh wait, Ignite is a part of the Assassin meta they're enforcing, so never mind.

LordGeovanniJul 16, 20181 votes

why ignite over flash?????

TegashJul 16, 20181 votes

I honestly dislike summoner spells as a concept because most of them leave little room for counterplay.

I'm on the fence about flash, because if you use it well it can be very fun. But it's once again a case of More Mobility Wins. An Ashe with a flash isn't going to catch a Lucian or Kai'Sa with the very same ability.

LordGeovanniJul 17, 20181 votes

Mobility on the whole in the game is balanced badly. I think most summoners are fine for the cooldowns they have but not flash in relation to every other summoner

Kurt HyzanJul 22, 20181 votes

Same, I do believe sums are too forgiving

summoner 4 for instance, if a Mordekaiser Darius manage to come melee, the ranged one can just flash away and keep kiting with no effort, since most ranged champions have built-in kiting tools

Fargo79Jul 16, 20181 votes

I still lay awake in bed tryin to figure out why they felt Clarity and Clairvoyance needed to be taken out of the game..

TegashJul 16, 20181 votes

Clairvoyance was later re-added with the blue ward. Clarity was removed during the war on mana.

Fargo79Jul 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Clairvoyance was later re-added with the blue ward. Clarity was removed during the war on mana.

My point being is they didnt effect the outcome of a game. they didnt snowball anyone, they didnt even an offensive advantage over another.. i used to run Clarity mid with morg.. i could stay there until lvl 12-13 without having to recall normally... but yes then they nerfed all Mana related items and spells.. and then released numerous non mana based or less mana reliant champs for mid.. them removing Clarity only meant i had to learn to farm better and conserve mana better.. so if i had it now with those improvements i may never have to leave lane..