@Riot the state of Nidalee, and her absence from the Assassin rework

SwiftKitten88··6 votes·1,402 views

TLDR: this is a VERY long post, but it contains FACTS backed up by riots patch notes.. and statistical DATA that has it source linked. i only ask that if u DO downvote (and likewise upvote) please only do so after READING the ENTIRE post. and specificallyif you do downvote.. i would like you to post WHY you disagree with the facts i have posted. but if you not goign to read the whole post then just read this

the ENTIRE point of nidalee's rework in season 4 was to stop her "throwing spears all day" and to get her to pounce into melee range where she isn't safe and has counterplay. the nerf you did to her in patch 6.11 removed her ability to pounce in and then pounce OUT after a trade, by effectively removing the pounce reset, and therefore her ability to come out of the trade with an advantage. by REMOVING the ability for her to POUNCE OUT until you hit lvl 16, you REMOVE the ability for her to POUNCE IN, and therefore nidalee is AGAIN just "throwing spears all day"

/tldr

for the longest time nidalee was a laning champs she had 3 lanes.. top, middle, and support

now during season 4 nidalee got a FANTASTIC rework. it not only made her much more balanced by buffing her weak areas and nerfing her strong areas, it gave her much more counterplay.. and it made her MUCH more fun to play, no longer do i just sit and throws spears all day.. i can actaully use kitty form pre 6.. i can farm for FREE in it.. but i risk goign into melee range vs many ranged champs. i can trade, but i STILL need to land the skillshot in order to do so, as my spear doesn't hit for crazy damage like it used to. i LOVED her rework.. it was perfect

and after a few teaks to her after her rework.. nid has achieved a solid 50% win rate in top AND mid and was at a 48% win rate as support.

and now we are at patch 4.17 where nidalee is balanced and not only BALANCED, the epitome of balance. THREE balanced lanes without bring broken in any.. AP, AD or hybrid, tank or squishy, she could do almost everything, and at the same time wasn't crazy good and broken in any of those area. she had great burst and was a mobile assassin.. but relied completely on landing a skillshot to do that damage. (edit: great burst .. but she also does have a great bust...) she is hard countered by tanks, yet has ONE tool to use against them, her traps. yet she still cant force them to walk on them. again... balance at its perfection

now me and a couple other avid nidalee player kept asking riot why with nidalee's lore being from the jungle.. who she could never jungle.

and like a monkeys paw... we got what we wished for... patch 5.2 and at first it, i thought was perfect.

but then BUG was found.. a error that allowed nidalee to instantly reset all her cooldowns. luckily this was fixed... in patch 5.3, but by then nid jungle had hit the radar... and sicnce it was bugged in a crazy OP way when it did.. thngs started goign downhill really fast

thats why in patch 5.5 the mess start happening

because her traps which has been completely reworked were now capped at 200 vs monsters they were perfect

but with her being able to jungle.. this was too strong now..

so instead of riot making the MOST OBVIOUS DECISION OF ALL TIME, which would have been.. idk LOWER THE CAP

the decide to completely remove her % hp damage. which BTW was the ONLY % hp damage on ANY skill in the game that can be AVOIDED.

not only did they remove her % hp and change them to direct damage... the reduced to traps to HALF their previous value.. AND they still lost EVERY effect from the rework.. which means they now no longer die aoe. no longer revealed stealthed champs now did half the damage of pre-reworked and no longer had armor and magic shred have the worst scaling of any skill i know of

but at least they rooted jungle mobs and her clear was good

except this change killed her support role.. and it DESTROYED every use for her traps OUTSIDE the jungle so overall.. sight nerf to her jungle HUGE nerf to her lanes

in the mean time.. cait traps were given charges so they could be spammed at all once.. and because cait traps were never proced by minions they could be used to defend or siege, and cait traps STILL buff her headshot

just like nid traps buff nid's pounce

and what ISN'T listed ANYWHERE is the hidden bug that made nidalee spears invisible now THIS is what made nidalee's ban rate jump to 80% and it wasnt fixed until a MUCH later date but thing you should know.. nidalee's invisible spear bug. is VERY hard to accidentally do. so if you EVER had to face it.. the chances are they were INTENTIONALLY using a glitch to their advantage.. i played nid about 95% of the time and only ONCE did i have someone tell me i trhew an invisble spears. yet FREQUENTLY i got told "thanks for not cheating nid"

next.. patch 5.7 straight out nerfs to nids base health and health per lvl

again HUGE nerf to her lanes... but in jungle she has a heal and a root so no real nerf to her there and riot still hasn't fixed the invisible spear bug

patch 5.15 increased cast time on spear again no nerf to her jungle as vs player she usually throws from fog of war and jungle mobs are STATIONARY? they DON'T CARE about cast time

they also nerfed her damage later in the game.. which was ALWAYS her weak point as nid's early game was always her strongest

and a nerf to her traps for vision on placement. which i still find stupid as other champs like cait still get the same vision on placement

and stuff like shako boxes give FULL vision even AFTER placement and even teemo shroom and jhin traps give slight vision while on the ground

somewhere between patch 5.14 and the release of challenger nid skin.. the invisible spear was fixed SECRETLY and not listed in patch notes.. not acknowledged. and the hate for nidalee start to die down

now in 6.6 another HUGE nerf comes to nidalee.. the removal of her root on traps previously because her traps rooted nidalee was able to do a safe full clear, even leashless

but after they nerf nidalee now needs to kite the mobs. now because way back during the post rework nerfs in in patch 4.17 her auto attack damage was nerfed and well as her attack speed because of her top laning these another with other changes were done to make her more AP and less hybrid

but now without the root, the lower damage and now less less hp from the previous nerf which previously only affected her laning.. now affect her jungle

as "compensation" hr pounce was _slightly _ buffed at lower levels but also had its auto attack reset removed

the net change of this was was disturbed me most.. because at higher elos.. this change did pretty much next to nothing.. and yet at LOWER elos.. (aka those below plat where 90% of the population is) nid's early clear became INCREDIBLY hard.

aka you went from doing a full leash less clear with only 1 pot and then ganking at near full hp.

to you get executed at lvl 2 from your blue buff or level 1 if you tried to do it leash less

but again because at HIGH LEVEL PLAY these nerfs did very little infact it EVEN INCREASED her clear speed. her pounce damage takes a nerf mostly kitting the previous compensation nerf

which again slightly hurt higher elos.. but made it EVEN WORSE for lower elos.

now for the first time in TWO YEARS, in patch 6.9 riot actually did something right for nid they slightly nerfed her early takedown damage but increased it lategame. overall it hit her where she was strongest and buffed her where she was weakest.

and for the first time in two years i thought.. YAY maybe riot will actually FIX nidalee now. they are finally making PROGRESS

but in patch 6.11 those hopes were shattered as another HUGE nerf comes to the live servers a slight nerf to her passive raius for prowl movement speed, but a HUGE nerf to her pounce reset cooldowns until she hit 16

now this change was SOO HUGE it actually DID affect even the higher elo players but what makes it even worse for me, that that this change, once and for all completly DESTROYS any hope laning nid ever had of coming back.

because the WAY nidalee can trade and come out ahead is her ability to LAND that skillshot and pounce in.. deal some damage (and take some) and pounce out. now that "pounce out" has been removed meaning if we DO go in we have NO WAY of getting back out for 4 seconds meaning all the damage we did.. they can just deal right back to us and then some.. aka we ONLY pounce in for the kill, and no longer pounce in to "trade" and this DESTROYS the ENTIRE point of nidalee REWORK which was to STOP her from just "throwing spears all day" and GET her to pounce in which is what gave her counterplay.

because for the past 2 years.. nidalee was always about VERY strong mid game and early game.. and horrible late game.

but what all the nerfs did was.. they KILLED her early game. now she is CRAZY weak early game because of this she has much weaker mid game.. and by the time late game comes around and she has the gold to be productive.. its now lategame.. and she lost her chance to do anything.

now yes i play nidalee, yes she is my main. and while i do have a certain about of bias. EVERYTHING piece of DATA i posted here is FACT and is backed up by patch notes.

you can check them HERE http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Background down in patch notes

now because this community doesn't seem to give a shit about lower elo players despite the fact that they represent 90% of the population of league they have chosen to IGNORE the fact that at LOWER elos.. nidalee win rate is below 45% and is the 2nd lowest of ANY champ in the game

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-loserate&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=normal&league=ranked

because people ignore the fact that most player DON'T PLAT RANKED anymore.. and the ones who do do it in premades or else they're screwed.. pretty much totally screws up the "ranked" winrate stats

but even so... nidalee winrate in ranked in still in the lowest 10 of any champ until plat elo

and because EVERYONE is so focused on talking about higher elo play.. and "the only stats at matter are plat +.. they go to sites that ONLY look at the higher elo data.. such as champion.gg or op.gg and are like... ok nids winrate is at 50% at high elos.. lets completely ignore the fact that we DESTROYED Nidalee FOR NINETY PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.

and don't say "nid is just too hard to play for those lower elos" i have been playing nidalee for THREE years.. i am silver elo. during all that time.. nidalee was never "too hard" for me to play. and suddenly because of nerfs i "should play an easier champ" because i "don't have the skill to play her".

now with the upcoming "assassin rework" nidalee's ONE remaining change of actually getting to lane again.

and she isn't on the list..

so riot. PLEASE take a look at nidalee during the assassin rework. because DESPITE the fact that you pretty much STOPPED her from being an assassin because you removed her ability to pounce and and to ever trade, thereby FORCING her to just siege all day.. she IS or rather is SUPPOSED TO BE, or at least WAS. and assassin.. and she is in DIRE need of your love and care right now. so PLEASE bring back who ever did nidalee's season 4 rework. and let them UNDO the mess you have made with her. because right now... she isn't the champ i fell in love with. and for that matter league really isn't the same game i fell in love with. and while fixing nidalee wont fix league. it will at least made all of us nidalee players.. stay at least a little while longer...

15 Comments

Caítlyn2 votes

Sorry didnt read.

I just want the Nida from S3 back again. She was my go-to mid pick and now she sucks.

I still remember chucking spears and dealing 70% of a dudes hp.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry didnt read.

I just want the Nida from S3 back again. She was my go-to mid pick and now she sucks.

I still remember chucking spears and dealing 70% of a dudes hp.

they still do that don't they

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

they still do that don't they

lol nidalee would have to be building full AP 700+ AP and be late game and they would have to have no mr and have less than 2k hp for that to happen unless your fighting beginner bots that isn't likely to happen.

i mean i HAVE seen it happen like 8 months ago when she could potentially snowball a lead if they gave it to her.. but that was before all her recent nerfs.. and she isn't going get anywhere near far enough ahead for that to happen now unless she is a high level smurf playing vs bronzes

which now that i think about it... isn't really that unlikely to happen with ranked being a disaster from dynamic que. i haven't faced any plat + nidalees myself.. but i have CERTAINLY faced plat + other smurfs.. on a FAR to frequent basis now

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

lol nidalee would have to be building full AP 700+ AP and be late game and they would have to have no mr and have less than 2k hp for that to happen unless your fighting beginner bots that isn't likely to happen.

i mean i HAVE seen it happen like 8 months ago when she could potentially snowball a lead if they gave it to her.. but that was before all her recent nerfs.. and she isn't going get anywhere near far enough ahead for that to happen now unless she is a high level smurf playing vs bronzes

which now that i think about it... isn't really that unlikely to happen with ranked being a disaster from dynamic que. i haven't faced any plat + nidalees myself.. but i have CERTAINLY faced plat + other smurfs.. on a FAR to frequent basis now

your joking right. 200 ap and her spears chunk 75% health of a squishie

Eedat1 votes

Nidalee isnt an assassin. She also offers a shit ton of utility as well. How is it fair that an "assassin" should get super high low-risk burst, great poke, awesome zoning, and lots of utility?

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee isnt an assassin. She also offers a shit ton of utility as well. How is it fair that an "assassin" should get super high low-risk burst, great poke, awesome zoning, and lots of utility?

nidalee is not only an assassin she is (or rather WAS, before the jungle fiasco) the ONLY balanced assassin. riot could learn a LOT from her original rework. but instead they seem intent on ruining her, and to hell with when she was actually a perfect example of the epitome of balance

Valor Bot1 votes

Assassins

  • Zed
  • Kha’zix
  • Fizz
  • LeBlanc
  • Akali
  • Talon
  • Katarina
  • Kassadin
  • Shaco
  • Rengar
  • Nidalee (hybrid Artillery)

Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Eedat1 votes

hybrid

hybrid

HYBRID

Valor Bot1 votes

She's an Assassin with Artillery Mage qualities; hence, "hybrid Artillery." Not sure what you're trying to get at here...? Just because she's a hybrid doesn't mean she isn't an Assassin first and foremost.

Eedat1 votes

LOL no no no no. I'm not going to sit here and let you attempt to tell me you dont know what HYBRID means. It means shes PART assassin and PART mage. Hence my entire argument of how she shouldnt get the full on burst of a full assassin AND the full utility of a mage. She doesn't get 100% of the benefits of both classes without giving something up

Valor Bot2 votes

"Full utility of a mage"? What utility does Nidalee bring to the table, exactly? She doesn't have the hard crowd control of a Lux, Morgana, or Anivia. Heck, she doesn't have any crowd control abilities at all. And for being a primary Assassin, she sure lacks the safety of one -- at least Zed and LeBlanc have toggleable blinks for getting in and out; Nidalee is completely reliant upon landing her spear (or trap) on the target and then engaging/disengaging with her leap to get a kill, all while being 100% vulnerable during the fight.

I'm not trying to say that Nidalee isn't too strong, but the claim that she has the best of both worlds with no downsides to it is probably stretching the truth a bit.

By the way, there's a reason why she's under the Assassin list with a "hybrid Artillery" tag rather than vice versa. It's because she shines at being an Assassin first and foremost, not an Artillery Mage, who would just chuck spears at people from far away for most of the game. For that, you could just pick Xerath or Ziggs, who could do the job way better.

So, yes. She's "part" Assassin and "part" Artillery Mage. But her gameplay is far more characteristic of an Assassin's play pattern, and she pays the price for her mage-like versatility in the form of low safety during engagements (which put her in melee range) and absolutely no crowd control.

Just my two cents

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

A great rundown of changes. I always wanted Nidalee to be balanced and fun to play with/against (I don't play her, but I am a jungler main.), so I support your argument. I also dislike any dominance in jungle by her, so RIOT PLS

SwiftKitten881 votes

Edit: fixed some grammatical errors and missing words in the OP.. should be a bit clearer now

SwiftKitten881 votes

yeah well the "hybrid artillery" is kinda pulling at strings on riots part, back when she could lane this was certainly a possible build, but unless you have 2 or 3 stacks of ocean drake or nid is runningitem 3040 which she doesn't unless she is in a lane... which thanks to riot isn't possible anymore or has a very strange non-meta build, she wont have the max mana or the mana regen to keep throwing spears during an extended fight.

not since they threw her into the jungle

item 1410 might give her near infinite mana in the jungle. but unless she leaves the fight to go back into the jungle to kill some mobs to get some mana back

she is goign to run out of mana. especially considering she will also probably be healing up damage to her team with her E and possibly placing some traps down for vision

if she is spamming spells and the fight lasts over 30 seconds.. she is goign to run out of mana with any normal build you would see on a jungle nidalee.

the reason she DOESN'T run out of mana in extended fight is because she ISN'T randomly throwing spears like an "artillery mage".

i mean i suppose you technically COULD choose to be an artillery mage nidalee... if you REALLY wanted to. I mean its still POSSIBLE with the right build... but that build isn't anywhere near as effective as her assassin build.. so unless you decided as a 5 man team to make a siege comp with like Nidalee Ziggs Varus Jayce and a either a tanky support in case they do engage on or a Lux support for more siege. i dont see this happening... certainly not in a non-premade team.

but then again... right now riot seems to only care about premades at the moment, so it really isn't too surprising to see her listed with a build that would only ever be used in a pre-made

EDIT: although ironically, like i listed in the OP... she IS going to turn back into more of an "artillery mage" if nothing is done about the pounce reset nerf... becuase she will never be able to trade becuase she cant pounce out unti lvl 16.. at which point there really isnt much "trading" of damage with goign in and out anyways

at that point it's you go in.. and one of you end up with a respawn timer. and if you TRY to trade with nid pre-16, unless you have a sizeable lead, its likely goign to be you with that timer..

SwiftKitten881 votes

i was going to write a new OP with this but because its so relevant to this thread i decided to add it here

nidalee was balanced in patch 4.17

now if we ASSUME for the moment that nidalee is currently balanced here in patch 6.13 (which i don't think she is, but for now for the sake of argument lets assume she is)

then that means this change

Prowl:

Nidalee can now Hunt Neutral monsters.

is equivalent to

General

Base health decreased to 511 from 541.
Health per level decreased to 80 from 90. 

Bushwhack

Damage changed to 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+20% AP) magic damage from 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18% (+2% AP)% current health).  
On-cast vision radius reduced to 400. 

Javelin Toss

Cast time increased to 0.25 seconds from 0.125.
Minimum damage changed to 60 / 77.5 / 95 / 112.5 / 130 from 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150.
Maximum damage changed to 180 / 232.5 / 285 / 337.5 / 390 from 150 / 225 / 300 / 375 / 450. 

Pounce

Base damage changed to 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 from 50 / 100 / 150 / 200.
Cooldown refund reduced to 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% from 70% at all ranks. 
Removed: Resets autoattack timer. 

Prowl Enhanced bonus movement speed range reduced to 1400 from 5500 against enemy champions.

now granted in patch 6.9 this was also done

Takedown

Execution amplifier changed to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 % bonus damage per 1% missing health from 1.5 % at all ranks.
    Maximum base damage changed to to 8 / 45 / 125 / 247.5 from 10 / 50 / 125 / 225.
    Maximum AD ratio changed to 150 / 168.75 / 187.5 / 206.25% AD from 187.5% AD at all ranks.
    Maximum AP ratio changed to 72 / 81 / 90 / 99% AP from 90% AP at all ranks. 

but i fully support this change

now to me personally... this REALLY doesn't seem like a fair trade..

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