It’s not a “damage meta” anymore. Damage has become the core aspect of this game.

HateDaddy··94 votes·18,877 views

It is clear that Riot wants their game balanced around damage. Everything does damage, even supports. Riot does not want styles of play to vary greatly and would rather champions be viable based on the amount of damage they can do - everything else they bring to the table is just a benefit. These secondary traits are where the meta is then defined. If the majority of the champions bursting you down are tanks, it’s a tank meta. If it’s assassins, it’s an assassin meta. If it’s mages, it’s a mage meta. Damage is simply like flash at this point based on years of horrible balancing concepts: every needs it and every does it, so it just exists in the background as an after thought rather than a special feature.

This is also why I was never keen on the term “damage creep” because it implies riot has accidentally raised damage and the damage in the game is a miscalculated side effect of poor balancing. It’s not. It was calculated and it continues to be because riot balances in a lazy fashion. Rather than allow unique designs to carry through other means (disruption, engaging, split pushing, objective power, utility in genera), Riot balances so that carrying is done one way: damage and burst. As unique as all of these different kits are, Riot has created one way to carry and that is why so many of these champions are prone to abuse (tanks killing everything; adcs having burst; utility mages/supports having burst potential because AP itemization is valued by its damage and not its passives or uniqueness). And this is honestly why the game has become trash because strategy is out the window and everyone just deathball zergs down middle for 25 minutes until someone knocks themselves out on a brick wall after banging their head on it for that entire duration.

65 Comments

Åshe16 votes

League is the CoD of the MOBA genre.

Nea1041 votes

Yeah really, it's all a big skirmishing to one-shot the other guy before he one-sjots you. Strategy at his best. Even if I'm thinking they're trying to make more like a mob-ile game, than a MOBA.

Cavesloth2 votes

Yeah, if I wanted to play COD I'd play COD. Oh wait, I went back to it, because of league sucking so hard.

Dayvigilante11 votes

Dealing damage to enemy champions was, at some point, not a core part of the game?

https://houseofgeekery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jackie-chan-whut.jpg

Rαy25 votes

{quoted}

Dealing damage to enemy champions was, at some point, not a core part of the game?

https://houseofgeekery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jackie-chan-whut.jpg

Someone did not get this post.

Back to topic: it is sad, but true. Riot wants their game to be completely dumbed down, despite the community feeling miserable about it.

iamthegoatofwar19 votes

It's mostly cause of the popularity in places like asia ect. Tencent is the death of many games.

saltran8 votes

Tencent has owned majority of (93%) Riot Games since 2011 btw, sorry if the facts goes against your narrative.

iamthegoatofwar2 votes

It can take a while for corruption and influence to spread. Once league picked up massive popularity in china and the like that's when you'd want to change the game to fit their needs.

dome02510 votes

Tencent wanted Riot to make a mobile moba. Did they follow Tencent´s instruction? No, but Tencent then made a mobile moba on their own (Arena of Valor).

So again, Riot still make decisions on their own. They get instructions from Tencent but they don´t necessarily follow them.

Making damage so damn high was probably Riot´s own decision.

Death by Glamour1 votes

When did they aquire the license to get the game into the chinese market ?

Leetri1 votes

They released League on the Garena server in 2010, so they probably got the license a while before that.

Nausicäa 2 votes

{quoted}

Tencent has owned majority of (93%) Riot Games since 2011 btw, sorry if the facts goes against your narrative.

And how exactly does this prove that Riot isnt catering to the Asian market because of Tencent? This is bad reasoning. Simply because something wasnt the case 7 years ago, doesnt mean it hasnt changed and isnt the case now.

You realize that things in business and life evolve and change and dont remain constant right? China has become increasingly important in terms of player numbers and viewer numbers for Riot and League of Legends. Other games have come out in the West like Overwatch, Fortnite and PUBG that have taken players away from LoL and the MOBA genre is no longer top dog. Meanwhile the game continues to be massive in the Asian market.

Its safe to say that Asia is the MOST important market for LoL at this time. Do you honestly think that if market research determined that Asians like faster paced, higher damage and shorter games that Riot wouldnt modify the game to maximize their profits in the region with their largest player base? Clearly they would not outright acknowledge this, because while the West is less important and they are willing to sacrifice some numbers there they want to alienate as few as possible. Its for this reason they continue to make the game faster paced while remaining silent to the complaints, they are walking a fine line changing the game for the Asian market and at the same time trying to avoid upsetting Western players.

If you honestly think that Riot is more concerned with Western players than making money then you're incredibly naive about business and the ways of the world.

PaladinNO2 votes

{quoted}

Dealing damage to enemy champions was, at some point, not a core part of the game?

Yes, but not 3000 damage in 3 seconds or less.

EDIT:

I've posted some screenshots here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuFMZD__7mN2kCXsIoEUpRDXFgjG

HyperTechno1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but not 3000 damage in 3 seconds or less.

Never been done. I can assure you, that is way too much even for Dota standards. That number is made up.

PaladinNO1 votes

{quoted}

Never been done. I can assure you, that is way too much even for Dota standards. That number is made up.

Well, if you say so...

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuFMZD__7mN2kCXsIoEUpRDXFgjG

HyperTechno1 votes

{quoted}

Well, if you say so...

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuFMZD__7mN2kCXsIoEUpRDXFgjG

The indicator there is not accurate, which is supported by many players. 3000 damage in 3 seconds would be one-shooting a tank or bruiser, which is, in fact, imposable even for old Zoe standards. Only a DPS champion like Yi or Jax would almost be able to reach those feet, but even they cannot reach that level of damage in three seconds on a tank or bruiser. The max time it would take them would be 6 seconds if they keep hitting the target if they are ahead. Else, the number is unrealistic.

Secondly, only one shows 3000 damage in three seconds, even that is inaccurate since you had 2899 health, and you go hit by a fucking three-man. Rengar was ahead, while you had no armor as Orianna, buy a item 3157, I am not surprised he one-shot you. Shaco killed you because you build no armor, also because he is at full build, again not surprised.

Thirdly, trying to justify the OP damage argument on ARAM games is stupid in itself. In ARAM you will always snowball faster than in a regular game. So this Bs you can go somewhere else with.

Some advice, League is not all about damage. It is about how you can do damage while staying alive. Prioritizing damage over strategy is Bronze level ideology. Even when you got Urgot, you build zero sustain, armor, or any survival items. Except for item 3022. Also by looking at your score, 3/8/8, it is no surprise that you would die with ease.

PaladinNO1 votes

{quoted}

Secondly, only one shows 3000 damage in three seconds, even that is inaccurate since you had 2899 health, and you go hit by a fucking three-man. Rengar was ahead, while you had no armor as Orianna, buy a item 3157, I am not surprised he one-shot you. Shaco killed you because you build no armor, also because he is at full build, again not surprised.

Yes, because 2000 damage in 0,5 seconds is not 3000 damage in 3 seconds...

Not building armor and whatever match mode it is does not take away the fact that dealing that amount of damage is such a short amount of time is possible in the first place. And being ARAM, it's impossible to "get ahead" like you refer to. Well, it's possible, but that's screwing up to an extreme degree.

I'd post the match histories, but I get the sense your mind is already made up about this, without any interest in discussing it further. The Urgot fight was a proper gangbang, and in the Kayle screenshot I had like 4 HP anyway.

HyperTechno1 votes

You missed the point. In all seriousness, when did 2000 damage to a champion in 0.5 seconds become the same as dealing 3000 damage in 3 seconds, no correlations. Squshies like Orianna will, for the most part, have a maximum of 2000 health, even with item 3157, and will still be easy to burst.

The only champions able or would build towards that much health will be tanks and bruisers. Even Zed, Zoe, and many burst champions will have a hard time dealing enough damage to one-shot them. Tanks and bruisers have a much larger armor, MR, and health growth than other champions. Plus, they build resistance.

The "Not building armor and whatever match mode..." is not an argument to strengthen it. People will deal that kind of damage to a person who cares more about dealing damage than avoiding others damage. There is a reason why Diamond players and up, think most of us down here are easy to play against. Because most of us in low elo will rather kill than prioritizing strategy, making most of us easy to punish. The case is the same for you. Instead of admitting that you let them damage you for free, you call broken or tilt out of your mind.

OneMustFall10 votes

Original content right here folks. Now if only someone could post a topic about Dark Harvest we'd be all set.

HateDaddy23 votes

{quoted}

Original content right here folks. Now if only someone could post a topic about Dark Harvest we'd be all set.

I mean, with that logic none of us should post. I’m sure I am not the only one to dispute “the damage meta” as a misnomer given how damage is balanced. I suppose I should’ve found a topic lacking research, discussed related research, broke it down in APA format and then provided my citations. My bad Professor, please forgive my lack of scientific writing and my lack of empirically supported theories to support my hypothesis. I’ll do better next time.

The Goodest Boy3 votes

LOOOOL jesus christ you destroyed that guy.

its almost like if a topic affects everyone, everyone is gonna post about it. plus, this thread provides actual genuine insight to the damage creep argument thats been going on. why shit on this post specifically?

people just wanna be upset

Cavesloth3 votes

Well you've got the schills that will defend Riot no matter what they do, and the guys who will attack anything posted on the gameplay boards because they are so deluded they think RIot listened to the boards and that's why the game is shit, and they BOTH hate these kinda threads so....

HyperTechno3 votes

{quoted}

I mean, with that logic none of us should post. I’m sure I am not the only one to dispute “the damage meta” as a misnomer given how damage is balanced. I suppose I should’ve found a topic lacking research, discussed related research, broke it down in APA format and then provided my citations. My bad Professor, please forgive my lack of scientific writing and my lack of empirically supported theories to support my hypothesis. I’ll do better next time.

What fucking damage meta? Damaging a fucking champion has always been the thing in League. Zed and Zoe still do massive damage but is far down from the number 1 spot, in DAMAGE META. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Everything I League depends on skill, dealing that, high amount of damage will only be if you can land your abilities. Dota you can click on a champion and they are dead. Your post also is very telling that you have not played many games outside of League. League is by far the most balanced MOBA out there. If you think I am lying, go outside your safe space and try other MOBA games. YOU WILL HAVE SO MUCH FUN, BY POINT-CLICK BS.

Talh1 votes

I think Smite might be the most balanced, IMO

HyperTechno1 votes

{quoted}

I think Smite might be the most balanced, IMO

Ah ok, fair point. I will give you that. At least your not one of the people blowing up in my face because I am right, thank you.

If you find other MOBA's like League or Smite, then please give me a heads up. I would love to play those games as well.

GL HF

[vlad-salute]

OHminus1 votes

because I am right

you sure seem full of yourself

HyperTechno1 votes

{quoted}

you sure seem full of yourself

Yes, because I know I am right. And people in my League friend circle agree that I am right 85% of the time when it comes to balancing. Me saying I am 100% right is a stretch of mine, MB, but I know for a fact that damage indeed is not too high, in fact, it has been this high since I started.

But thanks for the catch, I was being overconfident.

GL HF

[vlad-salute]

Radiant Wukong1 votes

{quoted}

Original content right here folks. Now if only someone could post a topic about Conqueror we'd be all set.

Ftfy

AR URF9 votes

I keep seeing people play damage champions as support

Velkoz Brand Lux Zyra. It's like actual supports like Janna Sona Nami have no place in this game anymore.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-30T13:20:24.495+0000)

I keep seeing people play damage champions as support

Velkoz Brand Lux Zyra. It's like actual supports like Janna Sona Nami have no place in this game anymore.

Of course because they are just as good as locking down entire teams as supports are. Healing, shielding and auras only matter if they can contribute to making someone else’s damage unbearable to deal with. If, as a utility based champion, your traits do not enhance these values then you are completely worthless. Remember, the last time most of these champions were good is when their core item acted as an insane power spike of damage in an ally.

It is important to note: because of this concept, uniqueness is loss across the board. Whatever can build or enhance damage the cheapest, fastest and most effective way will be what is good.

Moody P1 votes

Debuffs would also work the same way, but there are too few of those in LoL right now and Sona is the only enchanter with one iirc

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

No, this one is on the Players. People who bring damage supports bot are people who aren't going to be playing enchanter supports or tanks anyways. It's the same reason why Pyke was made, a support that would appeal to Assassin players who got forced Support. Zyra, Brand, Velkoz and the like, are mage players going bot.

The truth of the matter is that Enchanter /Wardens players are, the original playerbase of supports that had them being the insta-que monsters they were in Team builder. You see more damage supports, because more people are being autofilled into Support, who aren't normal support players.

Ηuawei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2018-12-01T00:08:51.232+0000)

No, this one is on the Players. People who bring damage supports bot are people who aren't going to be playing enchanter supports or tanks anyways. It's the same reason why Pyke was made, a support that would appeal to Assassin players who got forced Support. Zyra, Brand, Velkoz and the like, are mage players going bot.

The truth of the matter is that Enchanter /Wardens players are, the original playerbase of supports that had them being the insta-que monsters they were in Team builder. You see more damage supports, because more people are being autofilled into Support, who aren't normal support players.

People played damage "supports" since forever. Lux was a semi-popular pick before brand "support" became mainstream.

The issue is that now Janna can't shield off Brand's damage, Leona has a lot of trouble tanking Brand's skills even though she has so much armour and MR combined with W and aftershock.

No shield or armor can protect you from all the damage anymore.

I used to pick Leona and feel like a real tank, going in and absorbing a lot of damage before i go down unless we were in late game and they had vayne.

Nowadays i have 300 armour and i melt faster than ice-cream in a desert. I want to play tank to absord damage and stun people. I'm not having fun when i can't play my darn role. I hate this game each time i play something that doesn't have damage because i feel useless and can't fulfill the role i have in mind.

Janna shield used to counter zed's ult. Now it's just a small nuisance and gives 0.3 seconds delay to the burst.

3TWarrior1 votes

maybe it's just that most traditional supports have very little "visible" impact in the game. It gets boring. While it can be enjoyable (I like harrassing with soraka, sona and other traditional supports) , it feels a lot better if you do the same job, only you scale into something that has an impact

in season 5 and 6, chogath was my favorite support: high damage, can build tank, easy disengage, good poke, can lock down flash, dash and blink users, yada yada, but riot changed the sustain and i'm not sure if it works now

SSW Talon2 votes

Janna, Nami and Sona are all good in soloq right now.

Talh1 votes

The funny thing is... all these supports can actually deal a good deal of dmg now. Especially early game.

HyperTechno2 votes

{quoted}

The funny thing is... all these supports can actually deal a good deal of dmg now. Especially early game.

For the most part, they are strong early, but their damage falls off quick during the mid-game. During mid to late game, keeping the carry safe with shields and heal or helping the carry with CC, will become the priority for supports. Unless if your Pyke, Brand, Vel, you know.

Else, for the most part, you correct. But Riot has been mentioning that they are looking to get damage supports out off that role, except Pyke, which is understandable.

If I misunderstood anything, please, correct me.

GL HF

[vlad-salute]

Marshbouy2 votes

As someone who plays shitloads of Lulu support, you're pretty accurate. Lulu can deal respectable damage for the first 15 or so minutes of the game, but after that she tickles.

SSW Talon2 votes

Sona does respectable damage later on because of how spammable her Q is + powerchord. She also tends to get a bit more AP than the others that were mentioned.

Ηuawei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-30T13:20:24.495+0000)

I keep seeing people play damage champions as support

Velkoz Brand Lux Zyra. It's like actual supports like Janna Sona Nami have no place in this game anymore.

Everytime i don't pick a poke / burst mage for support i regret it. When i play Leona i want to cry most of the time.

I found more success playing Karthus support than Leona. It's ridiculous

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ákali exe,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-12-01T03:04:35.979+0000)

Everytime i don't pick a poke / burst mage for support i regret it. When i play Leona i want to cry most of the time.

I found more success playing Karthus support than Leona. It's ridiculous

Karthus support is legit oppressive to play against as well.

Marshbouy2 votes

I found more success playing Karthus support than Leona. It's ridiculous

I find it very interesting that you're doing poorly on the third best support according to OP.GG...I wonder why that is? http://na.op.gg/champion/leona/statistics/support

Marshbouy2 votes

That's because many of those champions were completely dominant in the ardent censer meta. So dominant that not picking them was borderline trolling at times.

Janna and Soraka are also tier 1 champions according to OP.gg, so I'm not sure how enchanters "no longer have a place in league."

chipndip15 votes

"Gameplay and Strawmen"

King Braum4 votes

The fact that Bard's main playstyle is a roaming assassin, completely losing his core character is somewhat upsetting to me stil..

Handy Sandy 4 votes

Rather than allow unique designs to carry through other means (disruption, engaging, split pushing, objective power, utility in genera), Riot balances so that carrying is done one way: damage and burst.

All the meta top laners aside from viktor are splitpushers. All the meta supports aside from Pyke are engaging/disrupting tanks. If damage was valued over that, Brand/Zyra/Vel'koz would be the top tier.

(Brand is a high tier on op.gg, but following this list there's another contradiction because Janna and Soraka are also high tiered.)

Mid/Jg/ADC have always been damage roles because league, and every other game, needs damage in order to actually make 5 minutes mean something different from 50 minutes.

why is damage being a core part of the game a problem? CC -> Sets up for damage. Tanks -> Tank damage for backline. Carries -> Deal damage. How do you play a game without damage? I don't think a concept like that has ever been done or is possible. Everything in this game has a connection to deal or evade damage, just in different ways.

What would you replace damage with? Walk me through something to replace it.

To win you must kill nexus To kill nexus you must kill towers To kill towers you must kill champions defending them To kill champions you need to do more damage than they do to you

That's been league since the start of it, that's the same flow every combat game has. What's the point of this post? Ctrl+6ing people to death?

DarkSoul19944 votes

Well put. People just want something to be collectively angry about when they don't understand or can't/refuse to adapt to the current state of the game after the meta shifts.

I've been playing a bunch of Shaco lately trying to finally get him to Mastery 7. If damage is so high and Dark Harvest is so busted I should be able to 1-shot the enemy Kai'sa before she and her support can react, right? No. She pops E to buy time for her Braum to throw down his E and Q me so the Kai'sa can stun and kill me.

There's thousands of team compositions that completely cuck my ability to deal damage on any given champion. But just because OP was in a counter matchup or the enemy backline had enough CC and/or mobility to kite his Nasus/Jax in any given game he feels entitled to come onto the forums and cry about how busted damage is because the chimp facetanked a thresh Q into an entire culling.

Nishant2 votes

Riot literally doesn't care. There's no point of discussing it. I'm almost 100 percent sure the balance team thinks this is the perfect Preseason and that all their goals have been met.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

Damage has always been the core of this game. It was always about "how to apply damage to objectives" when it all boils down to it. To do that, maybe you might use your damage to kill the enemy to get them out of the way, then apply that damage onto the now free objective. Or it could be protecting the "super duper damage factory Vayne KogMaw" so that they can produce more damage to apply onto enemies and objectives. That has never changed until this day, except that now everything does damage.

rtbf2216514122 votes

Good thing Soraka damages herself otherwise she wouldn't fit in somehow.

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