Why is Kha'zix the only assassin besides Zed that hasn't been reworked?

Śhunpo·Feb 12, 2019·7 votes·2,615 views

Kha'zix has always been unhealthy and obnoxious since his release, and every "mini-rework" he gets seems to just break him further. Not only that, but he seems immune to nerfs, the moment he gets nerfed Riot makes sure to overbuff another area of his kit in the same patch. I don't think he's ever truly been "unviable" or not meta. Why is this the case?

Oh, and to make matters worse he's an incredibly safe champion so even if you do catch him unless you one-tap him he's just going to jump and/or stealth right the fuck out of any situation he's in.

I can understand why Zed hasn't been reworked (I don't count micro-changes) but Kha'zix? He's easily the most unhealthy assassin alongside Leblanc.

31 Comments

Moody PFeb 12, 20196 votes

kha has been reworked almost as much as Ryze, just not to the same extreme

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NIkMUEGv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-12T11:43:39.598+0000)

kha has been reworked almost as much as Ryze, just not to the same extreme

"Reworked", you mean when they nerf his damage and then buff any and all utility aspects on his W and R. That's not really what I consider a rework.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 12, 20193 votes

Kha and zed are both pretty healthy in their kit. Zed has deleyed burst ult and Kha isolation mechanic makes his strong points counterable by grouping, his escape is tied to his kill potential making him risky to dive in if you cant commit to execute your target, plus his evolution thing is pretty unique.

The fact they remain viable regardless if they are OP or UP shows their kit is alright (except for the time Kha had perma stealth), no champion should be intentionally made unviable, unless they are toxic and need bigger reworks (akali, old yorick).

That's my opinion tho, i'd rather face kha than talon rengar or LB

ApexInTheCircleFeb 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kha and zed are both pretty healthy in their kit. Zed has deleyed burst ult and Kha isolation mechanic makes his strong points counterable by grouping, his escape is tied to his kill potential making him risky to dive in if you cant commit to execute your target, plus his evolution thing is pretty unique.

The fact they remain viable regardless if they are OP or UP shows their kit is alright (except for the time Kha had perma stealth), no champion should be intentionally made unviable, unless they are toxic and need bigger reworks (akali, old yorick).

That's my opinion tho, i'd rather face kha than talon rengar or LB

Zed's damage should be delayed, but sadly it's not. He no longer needs his ult to kill you, just to get ontop of you. One Q, auto and E with electrocute and ignite are enough to kill anyone who's not a tank.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 12, 20191 votes

Im talking straight up about the kit, not numbers. OP is talking about mini reworks to the kit, not damage nerfs.

Yes damage is overtuned but in terms of kit, both offer good counterplay for their class in terms of how they play.

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kha and zed are both pretty healthy in their kit. Zed has deleyed burst ult and Kha isolation mechanic makes his strong points counterable by grouping, his escape is tied to his kill potential making him risky to dive in if you cant commit to execute your target, plus his evolution thing is pretty unique.

The fact they remain viable regardless if they are OP or UP shows their kit is alright (except for the time Kha had perma stealth), no champion should be intentionally made unviable, unless they are toxic and need bigger reworks (akali, old yorick).

That's my opinion tho, i'd rather face kha than talon rengar or LB

Kha doesn't even need you to be isolated when he's moderately fed due to the AD scaling he has on his passive now+Duskblade. Oh, and now he has a 90% slow on his evolved W as well, just in case you actually WANTED to move.

I'd rather face Talon or Rengar tbh.

haaaaaaalpFeb 12, 20193 votes

Because he has a healthy base kit. He is a mana based melee champion with reasonable cast times short range no cc and clear drawbacks on each of his spells. The only thing which would potentially cause a problem is resetting mobility which is slower than kat who has also had reserving mobility in the past. He never needed a large rework, just shuffling around his upgrade mechanic which was not well thought out on release.

VolatileAkaliFeb 12, 20192 votes

Mana does not equal Healthy kit. Mages are a prime example of that, even if they have high cost skills they have items to pretty much spam their abilities 24/7. Kha doesn't waste as much mana after he lvl 6+.

Doge2020Feb 12, 20191 votes

But mana costs make a champ much more easier to fight. You can easily beat a fed kha if he is out of mana and can’t jump to run away or to you to one shot you with duskblade.

Mana restricts the availability of a champ’s abilities.

Mana does not always equal totally balanced, but mana does make it far more easier for Riot to balance those champs.

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But mana costs make a champ much more easier to fight. You can easily beat a fed kha if he is out of mana and can’t jump to run away or to you to one shot you with duskblade.

Mana restricts the availability of a champ’s abilities.

Mana does not always equal totally balanced, but mana does make it far more easier for Riot to balance those champs.

Kha'zix only requires 70 mana to oneshot you. Mana does not restrict Kha'zix in the slightest unless he is below that mana threshold.

VolatileAkaliFeb 13, 20191 votes

The problem is a fed Kha'Zix will have so much mana the he didn't spent. His abilities aren't high in mana cos.

They do to until their mana pools get large as fuck or their items pretty much make the mana pool so large they can spam 24/7 abilities with no repercussions.

One word. Mages.

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because he has a healthy base kit. He is a mana based melee champion with reasonable cast times short range no cc and clear drawbacks on each of his spells. The only thing which would potentially cause a problem is resetting mobility which is slower than kat who has also had reserving mobility in the past. He never needed a large rework, just shuffling around his upgrade mechanic which was not well thought out on release.

No CC? NO CC? Did you not read any of the patch notes? Did you not read his passive? Trust me, Kha'zix has CC.

Reasonable cast times? He doesn't even have any cast times besides tiny ones on Q and W, E is instant.

Resettable mobility is indeed an issue, and the thing is....even old Kat had restrictions. Kha'zix still to this day only has one restriction, travel time. Apart from that he can use his jump liberally whenever he wants, it's just the however he wants that matters. Kat isn't even comparable to Kha'zix in this aspect since Kat's Shunpo is still to targeted to this day.

"He never needed a large rework, just shuffling around his upgrade mechanic which was not well thought out on release." His passive and Q definitely need reworks. They're the unhealthiest part of his kit and yet they haven't been significantly changed outside of number changes. Hell, his passive was even mega-buffed. Oh, and then we get to his "Evolution" concept, which has honestly never been balanced outside of E which is the only somewhat balanced evolution, then you have one of the other 3 being broken until Riot fixes the one and breaks another. Since release this entire concept has been broken.

tl;dr Q and passive are broken, W, E and R are fine (although stealth in general needs another rework for counterplay) and the "Evolution" part of his kit is fundamentally broken.

Also, Kat had a healthy base kit before her rework and yet she still got reworked, so I'd say there's certainly room for Kha'zix on the rework train.

SucctionFeb 14, 20192 votes

A single Isolated Kha'Zix Q has 10% less of a bonus AD Ratio than a triple Zed Q. Just thought it was a funny piece of info.

JunkοFeb 12, 20192 votes

Kha'zix has been reworked. His evolutions have been changed a million times, his W no longer slows, Q doesn't deal % health damage, E isn't also a damage nuke anymore, ult doesn't give damage reduction.

Tons of changes.

VolatileAkaliFeb 12, 20192 votes

Those are changes, buffs and nerfs. Not mini-reworks or reworks. Do you want an example? Shyvana mini-rework, and Akali full vgu rework.

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Milim Nava,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NIkMUEGv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-12T11:52:18.130+0000)

Kha'zix has been reworked. His evolutions have been changed a million times, his W no longer slows, Q doesn't deal % health damage, E isn't also a damage nuke anymore, ult doesn't give damage reduction.

Tons of changes.

Yeeeah those are basic changes. Changes to his evolutions can't even be considered mini-reworks tbh since his base kit has remained the same.

five oh tree Feb 12, 20192 votes

All of this is just your opinion. What objectively points to him being unhealthy?

The answer is simple: He has not been reworked because he's not unhealthy. That's the only logical reason. You're looking for a conspiracy to fit your claim instead of reevaluating your claim.

Work smarter, not harder.

Edit: I see the denizens of gameplay smelled me defending an assassin and had to intervene, how unexpected.

SucctionFeb 14, 20192 votes

Vayne is terribly unhealthy, no rework

Yi is equally unhealthy (As much as I love him), yet no rework for him either

They just made Akali, and look how wonderful that champion was for the game?

Riot aren't above mistakes, lol.

five oh tree Feb 14, 20191 votes

Ah you're doing what he's doing now.

Vayne is terribly unhealthy, no rework

says who? I will say she's strong due to the unnecessary buff a few patches ago, but what part of her is bad for game health?

Yi is equally unhealthy (As much as I love him), yet no rework for him either

Sounds like an opinion to me.

They just made Akali, and look how wonderful that champion was for the game?

That was DUE to a rework that failed to bring her from unhealthy to healthy. This actually proves my point quite nicely. She WAS unhealthy, so they reworked her. Now they have dumpstered her until they can find a way to make her healthy.

See where I'm going with this? A champ being strong =/= a champ being unhealthy

SucctionFeb 14, 20191 votes

Her compete disregard for all melee champions' existence post two items is a pretty big one. Otherwise it'd be her permastealth that they just added for no reason despite it being terrible for the game and completely lacking counterplay.

You can't counter every fact you don't like with "Bruh that's just like your opinion". That's not how facts work.

Kha'Zix is unhealthy due to his inherent lack of counterplay beyond "always share xp and never use any trinket except blue"

five oh tree Feb 14, 20191 votes

It is though. It's your opinion that she makes the game unhealthy. Facts are as follows: Vayne invalidates melees. Correct. Your opinion about that is: It's unhealthy.

It's not necessarily incorrect, but it is not factual.

You can try phrasing it like, "The fact that vayne invalidates melees hurts game health" and argue that point.

Beyond that, Kha'zix's counterplay is identical to every other assassin: don't be alone unless you can kill them 1v1. There's nothing special about him other than the fact that it usually happens from stealth when you're walking somewhere you shouldn't be.

I don't like or dislike facts; I dislike when opinions are stated as facts.

Anyway, I think vayne is overpowered, but not unhealthy. It takes some time for her to ramp up and her ult is her window of extreme power. It's obnoxious and hard to play against, but she's defenseless while it's on cooldown. If I thought she was unhealthy, I'd have to argue the same thing for every ult reliant champ in the game, and I don't want to do that. Thus, I just call her overtuned, ban her, and move on with my life.

ŚhunpoFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ah you're doing what he's doing now.

says who? I will say she's strong due to the unnecessary buff a few patches ago, but what part of her is bad for game health?

Sounds like an opinion to me.

That was DUE to a rework that failed to bring her from unhealthy to healthy. This actually proves my point quite nicely. She WAS unhealthy, so they reworked her. Now they have dumpstered her until they can find a way to make her healthy.

See where I'm going with this? A champ being strong =/= a champ being unhealthy

says who? I will say she's strong due to the unnecessary buff a few patches ago, but what part of her is bad for game health?

True damage with effectively no cooldown (and Guinsoo's exists), an extremely low cooldown repositioning tool that also functions as an auto reset, one of the best situational CC abilities in the game and an ult that allows for what I like to call the "outplay factor" where if you make one mistake against her you die, whereas she can make multiple mistakes and have it considered to be an outplay since she'll kill you anyways. The buff to her ult->Q just made this worse.....

Sounds like an opinion to me.

Doubt it. True damage, he abuses items to such an extent he breaks them; thanks to his passive (similar to Vayne only he did it before Vayne did), untargetability that he can easily get back up just by doing his job (autoing).

That was DUE to a rework that failed to bring her from unhealthy to healthy. This actually proves my point quite nicely. She WAS unhealthy, so they reworked her. Now they have dumpstered her until they can find a way to make her healthy.

Akali was unhealthy due to shroud upon rework. Riot did not target shroud when initially nerfing her, so now we're stuck with this gutted champ until Riot decides to buff her. Although I will say kit wise only her shroud was really "broken" per say.

five oh tree Feb 14, 20191 votes

True damage with effectively no cooldown (and Guinsoo's exists), an extremely low cooldown repositioning tool that also functions as an auto reset, one of the best situational CC abilities in the game and an ult that allows for what I like to call the "outplay factor" where if you make one mistake against her you die, whereas she can make multiple mistakes and have it considered to be an outplay since she'll kill you anyways. The buff to her ult->Q just made this worse.....

It has no cooldown because it requires her to hit one target consecutively. Her "auto reset" actually slows her auto attacks down after something like 1.4-1.5 attack speed unless she's standing on a wall and resets towards the wall.

Her condemn is not "one of the best situational cc abilities in the game" at all. That is salty hyperbole. It's decent at best and can only be used defensively 95% of the time. It also has a long cooldown, little damage, and short range.

Her ult is her window of power, as I mentioned to the other person that replied to me. It is annoying and overbearing, yes. I also agree that the buff to her ult -> Q was ridiculous and unneeded. We are on the same page there.

Doubt it. True damage, he abuses items to such an extent he breaks them; thanks to his passive (similar to Vayne only he did it before Vayne did), untargetability that he can easily get back up just by doing his job (autoing).

For the record, it was an opinion; that is undeniable. True damage does not make things inherently unhealthy. Calling yi unhealthy is going to make anyone above silver laugh at you. He has almost an exactly 50% winrate according to multiple sites (Champion.gg and League of Graphs) and 7% playrate. Those statistics are saying he's a good champion that is balanced.

Akali was unhealthy due to shroud upon rework. Riot did not target shroud when initially nerfing her, so now we're stuck with this gutted champ until Riot decides to buff her. Although I will say kit wise only her shroud was really "broken" per say.

No argument here, unless we're talking about master+ where the shroud was only part of the problem.

The Highest NoonFeb 13, 20191 votes

They both were. Zed and Khazix got an entire passive before Khazix was reverted because that shit was too strong.

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NIkMUEGv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-13T01:35:48.906+0000)

They both were. Zed and Khazix got an entire passive before Khazix was reverted because that shit was too strong.

Yeah, the ult passive was reverted, but everything else stayed.

SaezioFeb 13, 20191 votes

Rengar was reworked and reverted. Also, his rework was actually successful introducing many small intricacies with his Q.

But riot didn't like it because scrubs didn't enjoy new rengar than needed actual skill so he was reverted to a oneshot champ

ŚhunpoFeb 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Rengar was reworked and reverted. Also, his rework was actually successful introducing many small intricacies with his Q.

But riot didn't like it because scrubs didn't enjoy new rengar than needed actual skill so he was reverted to a oneshot champ

His rework was also insanely broken to the point where even if you built tank you'd still oneshot, so long as you had a Black Cleaver. I'm glad that abomination is gone.

SaezioFeb 13, 20191 votes

Ye, I'm sure you had a lot of trouble with reworked rengar in normals. his winrates were sky high right?

Wrong, the only places he was truly strong were pro and very high elo.

ŚhunpoFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ye, I'm sure you had a lot of trouble with reworked rengar in normals. his winrates were sky high right?

Wrong, the only places he was truly strong were pro and very high elo.

No....he was broken even above Plat. Maybe if you were IN Plat or above you might actually be able to understand that he was beyond busted.