Honestly we really should just revert runes

PhantomGG·Aug 2, 2018·47 votes·11,970 views

Core complaitns

-Damage creep is to high -No defensive runes -Snow balling feels insane

1-All the most popular runes involve more damage and offensive stats 2-Defensive rune tree sucks dick, for than you miss out on the great special abilities that the offensive rune trees give you 3- Half of the runes involve stacks that you get through kills, and are worthless if they don't stack, which puts the team that is behind at a even great disadvantage for they can't get their stacks.

54 Comments

Support PositionAug 2, 201814 votes

Old runes and mastery tree was also a LOT of freedom and more fun to play with. Now you're literally stuck with only playing with 1 run set for all champions. (Champ only uses 1 can't change it or its shit.)

It's annoying. Before you could have whatever runes you wanted for any champions and it would work. Same with the old masteries the customization was amazing. Now theres none.

Pika FoxAug 2, 20184 votes

I think you have old and new mixed up. Old runes and masteries everyone literally only ran 1 set. You could reasonably hit challenger with just 2 rune pages, just swapping armor/level for MR/level and base armor for base mr depending on lane matchup.

New runes and masteries every champ in the game has at least 2 keystones they can and need to know how to use, and most can run 3+.

The only people who think old runes had any customization are the people who didnt know old runes well. There was literally only 1 correct option.

LightIsMyPathAug 2, 20184 votes

Yeah? Cdr on blues vs ap vs mr. Magic pen on reds vs ad. Ap vs ms on quints. Hp vs armor in yellows. Thunderlord vs dft. 2 trees vs 3, cdr/mana vs more damage ecc. Now it's comet vs aery and null orb vs manaflow, literally the only choices

Pika FoxAug 2, 20183 votes

MR, cdr, and armor blues were the only viable options, pen was always the correct answer as long as you were comfortable last hitting, quints were the only real choice, yellows were almost always armor or mr, unless you had specific lane setups on specific champs.

They were just stats. And theres always an optimal stat.

LightIsMyPathAug 2, 20181 votes

the optimal stat can hugely depend on matchup though, and playstyle . If you can auto a lot/need shove very early AD red was convenient, mr yellows were honestly terrible and hp were better (see? even in such a simple system we are in disagreement about the setup), and AP blues were good in good matchups, while armor were meh (again, a different opinion on stats)

Pika FoxAug 3, 20181 votes

No, there was an always optimal setup. You only took AD reds to get enough AD to last hit comfortably. Pen reds were ALWAYS better, as they were more gold efficient. All other runes had the same issue. There was a defacto correct choice because some runes were worth more gold, or the stats just harder to get.

Warlord RhinarkAug 2, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-08-02T19:07:45.500+0000)

I think you have old and new mixed up. Old runes and masteries everyone literally only ran 1 set. You could reasonably hit challenger with just 2 rune pages, just swapping armor/level for MR/level and base armor for base mr depending on lane matchup.

New runes and masteries every champ in the game has at least 2 keystones they can and need to know how to use, and most can run 3+.

The only people who think old runes had any customization are the people who didnt know old runes well. There was literally only 1 correct option.

And how are new runes every different?

You talk about new runes being more customizable and every champion being able to use more than one keystone, but are they gonna?

How often do you see an Ezreal or Gangplank that doesn't take Kleptomancy?

How often do you see a Hecarim that doesn't take Predator?

How often do you see a Janna or Karma that doesn't take Aery?

How often do you see a Lee Sin or Zed that doesn't take Electrocute?

How often do you see an Alistar or Ornn that doesn't take Aftershock?

How often do you see a Udyr or Urgot that doesn't take Press the Attack?

Pika FoxAug 2, 20185 votes

Quite often, actually. Ez does well with harvest, comet, and glacial. Depending on enemy matchup and build, all are viable and used.

GP can also run electrocute.

Janna/karma also HAVE to run spellbook in some games, all supports have to. They can also run electro and comet depending on what other runes and secondary you need. Guardian also works for the defensive tree.

Lee can also run guardian. Zed can also harvest.

Predator on WW and hec are mostly because movespeed interacts with their kits, they can also run electro, harvest, or aftershock.

Ali has to run spellbook at times too, as hes a support. He can also run electro, but lesser extent.

Urgot runs comet just as much, pta is probably one of his weakest runes. Udyr also benefits from pred, aftershock, electro, harvest, phase....

Warlord RhinarkAug 2, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-02T20:47:35.919+0000)

Quite often, actually. Ez does well with harvest, comet, and glacial. Depending on enemy matchup and build, all are viable and used.

But Kleptomancy is still the undisputed best choice.

GP can also run electrocute.

Yeah, and how often do you see this exactly?

Janna/karma also HAVE to run spellbook in some games, all supports have to. They can also run electro and comet depending on what other runes and secondary you need. Guardian also works for the defensive tree.

Electrocute and comet on Janna/Karma?

Seriously?

That sounds like borderline trolling.

And what do you mean by "HAVE TO" run spellbook? I thought you were the one talking about customizable here, not being forced to take something.

And who takes Guardian besides Tank supports?

Lee can also run guardian. Zed can also harvest.

Zed with Harvest seems likely, but it doesn't happen as often as Electrocute.

And honestly, why would you take Resolve tree as your main path as Lee. That sounds ridiculous.

Predator on WW and hec are mostly because movespeed interacts with their kits, they can also run electro, harvest, or aftershock.

They CAN, but do they?

Ali has to run spellbook at times too, as hes a support.

Still don't know what you mean by this. It doesn't sound much customizable to be forced to take something, like what you implied with the old system.

He can also run electro, but lesser extent.

Pffft.

As if you've ever actually seen this yourself unless it was a full AP Alistar mid.

Urgot runs comet just as much, pta is probably one of his weakest runes. Udyr also benefits from pred, aftershock, electro, harvest, phase....

I'll give you Comet, but no Urgot takes any of the last.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20182 votes

Supports need spellbook in situations where they need exhaust late game for an assassin or carry such as yi. Supports take ignite early, adcs take heal, so supports later have to swap to exhaust in certain matchups.

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=000400000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T14:05:23.827+0000)

Supports need spellbook in situations where they need exhaust late game for an assassin or carry such as yi. Supports take ignite early, adcs take heal, so supports later have to swap to exhaust in certain matchups.

I find it hard to believe that these Supports would give up the versatility of Aery, for the sole reason of having an Exhaust in the late game/taking an Ignite in the early game.

That says more about how strong Ignite is/how important it is to snowball, rather than how bad the old rune system was.

I never see this at least. Is there some place to see the statistics of how often this is actually picked?

Pika FoxAug 3, 20182 votes

Happens more often in higher ELOs. And it has nothing to do with ignite being broken, exhaust just isnt good in lane. Enemies dont do a ton of damage in lane to warrant using it, and most of it is burst damage, which exhaust is only useful for if you exhaust before the burst.

Ignite cuts healing, which makes it good since ADCs run heal, and helps net early kills better than exhaust. Also good vs healer supports.

Late game, if grievs is needed ADCs run it via executioners, so you dont need it nor the extra damage from ignite, so if theres a powerful diver youre afraid of or an assassin etc youll run spellbook and swap to exhaust so their dive is negated pretty hard, leaving them without abilities and without a kill.

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=00040000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T15:02:47.796+0000)

Happens more often in higher ELOs. And it has nothing to do with ignite being broken, exhaust just isnt good in lane. Enemies dont do a ton of damage in lane to warrant using it, and most of it is burst damage, which exhaust is only useful for if you exhaust before the burst.

Ignite cuts healing, which makes it good since ADCs run heal, and helps net early kills better than exhaust. Also good vs healer supports.

Late game, if grievs is needed ADCs run it via executioners, so you dont need it nor the extra damage from ignite, so if theres a powerful diver youre afraid of or an assassin etc youll run spellbook and swap to exhaust so their dive is negated pretty hard, leaving them without abilities and without a kill.

I mean.

That's a pretty valid explanation.

But you didn't explain any of the others.

Examples like Alistar taking Electrocute and Lee Sin taking Guardian.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20182 votes

Matchup dependant and what you want to do/need to do to win the game. Ali doesnt necessarily need aftershock post 6, so guardian or electro can be used instead depending on role and what you feel youll need to do (esp non SR).

Lee is similar; he falls off late and electro wont really help him there. If he feels he needs other stats, guardian, grasp, phase rush... Theres plenty of options that work and work well depending on what you feel you need to do.

The main difference between old runes and new runes is that old runes were stat sticks of varying gold values, thus the higher gold value was always better. New runes are based on how you opt to play the champion for that game.

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=0004000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T16:46:45.802+0000)

Matchup dependant and what you want to do/need to do to win the game. Ali doesnt necessarily need aftershock post 6, so guardian or electro can be used instead depending on role and what you feel youll need to do (esp non SR).

Lee is similar; he falls off late and electro wont really help him there. If he feels he needs other stats, guardian, grasp, phase rush... Theres plenty of options that work and work well depending on what you feel you need to do.

The main difference between old runes and new runes is that old runes were stat sticks of varying gold values, thus the higher gold value was always better. New runes are based on how you opt to play the champion for that game.

Hmmm.

I mean, I can see where you're coming from.

But I still prefer the old system.

Small stat boosts are way easier to balance (I think) than when you start adding all kinds of gimmicks.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20182 votes

They honestly werent. People would just pick whatever was more gold efficient and cointered their lane opponent. If things were equal in gold value, then it was just whatever they could use that they had the hardest time building or the largest early game impact.

Not to mention the vast majority of the runes were traps.

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=000400000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T17:49:43.393+0000)

They honestly werent. People would just pick whatever was more gold efficient and cointered their lane opponent. If things were equal in gold value, then it was just whatever they could use that they had the hardest time building or the largest early game impact.

Not to mention the vast majority of the runes were traps.

So why not just make everything gold efficient?

What's the problem?

Pika FoxAug 3, 20181 votes

Second half; even if everything were equal, theres still no actual choice because youre not selecting runes depending on how you want to play the game or what you need to do to win, just whatever counters your lane opponent (mr or ar) and whatever is the least abundant in your build that you need (pen always beats out flat AD or AP)

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=00040000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T17:54:38.678+0000)

Second half; even if everything were equal, theres still no actual choice because youre not selecting runes depending on how you want to play the game or what you need to do to win, just whatever counters your lane opponent (mr or ar) and whatever is the least abundant in your build that you need (pen always beats out flat AD or AP)

But how are new runes any different?

Like you said, certain match ups require you to take certain runes (Unsealed Spellbook).

The NidjaAug 2, 20182 votes

That's odd I guess when I was diamond II and changed my runes between every game to mid/max it I didn't know what I was doing.

SangreDeNocheAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-08-02T19:07:45.500+0000)

Old runes and masteries everyone literally only ran 1 set. You could reasonably hit challenger with just 2 rune pages, just swapping armor/level for MR/level and base armor for base mr depending on lane matchup.

That's 4 pages in your 2 page example.

Support PositionAug 4, 20181 votes

I never ran 1 set. I always customized what I felt as a player I needed more. Not what "pros" or "challenger" say. I still do to this day aswell as much as I can help it.

Pika FoxAug 5, 20182 votes

You can do that with new runes, as new runes are picked based on playstyle. Old runes doing this just flat out gimped your champion, and cost you IP to intentionally gimp yourself.

Support PositionAug 5, 20181 votes

Never gimped me. I won 65% of my games back then. Now I win around 30%.

PercentagesAug 2, 201812 votes

I would kill your cat in a sacrifice to satan to have old runes back...

chipndip1Aug 2, 20189 votes

Here's the core issue: Popularity

It isn't that you don't have options. It's that people don't want to use them. For example, if you're a scaling marksman, you can use Resolve Secondary if you're up against some strong all-ins. You could also use Taste of Blood from the Domination tree alongside Fleet Footwork to try to sustain through lane. However, most people will still go Sorcery for Gathering Storm. Sure, it's a good late game rune, but you just forwent all sustain/defensive options for more damage. That's not the game's fault. That's your decision making.

Also can people stop whining about the Resolve Tree? It houses some of the best runes in the game, and it's either standard or "pretty dang good" on almost any champ.

Done25Aug 2, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Here's the core issue: Popularity

It isn't that you don't have options. It's that people don't want to use them. For example, if you're a scaling marksman, you can use Resolve Secondary if you're up against some strong all-ins. You could also use Taste of Blood from the Domination tree alongside Fleet Footwork to try to sustain through lane. However, most people will still go Sorcery for Gathering Storm. Sure, it's a good late game rune, but you just forwent all sustain/defensive options for more damage. That's not the game's fault. That's your decision making.

Also can people stop whining about the Resolve Tree? It houses some of the best runes in the game, and it's either standard or "pretty dang good" on almost any champ.

Chip knows what he's talking about. It's not that defensive and utility options don't exist. People simply don't want to take them base they "have" to go maximum damage.

Dokueki KenshinAug 2, 20181 votes

Right there with you. They need to tone down the damage values on runes and also look into buffing certain defensive and utility rune options. Like, for Aftershock, instead of a damaging AoE, it would be cool if the burst actually imposed either a slow or maybe even something like an armor/MR debuff.

flibitydooAug 2, 20187 votes

I think one of the things that's keeping the balance team from outright reverting them is season 7.

Season 7, the beginning, had complaints about the masteries as well. There was complaining that we were in a damage meta and that masteries were the biggest contributor to this. A big part of it was all the %damage increases that were loaded into the ferocity and cunning trees.

the other big part was brand and zyra dominating the support role and topscoring damage every game.

The masteries were fixed at some point though, when they outright nerfed the %damage increases all around the trees and the only problem that existed with the game then became ardent censer.

I can only assume that the reason why the refuse to just revert to the old system when it was functionally perfection, is because they believe that they can fix the current runes the same way.

Personally I think one of the best changes they could do, is to remove the passive stats (attackspeed, ad/ap adaptive/flat health) and just put that power into our starting items. One of the things we were going to get with runes reforged was a rework to our starting items (a dorans blade variant that came with attackspeed for instance) but it never came because of time constraints.

RainXBladeAug 2, 20187 votes

I would personally love to have the old runes and masteries back because of the freedom it gave for build choices and allowed you to maximize whatever stats your champ needs. Those stats didn't have to be all around damage but rather, some were for utility to make the champion smoother to play.

I also agree with the fact that all Runes Reforged did was just increase damage all across the board. But sadly, I do think Riot can't undo that; the reason being they poured in a lot of resources into it. Scrapping Runes Reforged itself would mean Riot effectively wasted their money and resources for it.

Teridax68Aug 2, 20186 votes

I personally vote that we remove runes altogether at this point. For sure, the old system was better than the current one, but it had some serious issues as well, namely that the stat customization options it offered were fixed in the vast majority of cases. Keystones from the previous seasons also warped gameplay, whereas the masteries beforehand all offered less visible bonuses that may have well been more stats or item passives (many of the new ones could be the latter as well). In every case, there was little choice involved, because people still gravitated towards around one set build per champion. Cutting out all of this, and instead allowing champions better customization within matches, I think should be the way to go.

Pika FoxAug 2, 20185 votes

Yeah, no. New runes are infinitely better than the old runes.

More engaging for the player. Easier to balance. Defensive rune tree is just as busted as it always was.

Theres literally 0 reason to revert runes other than nostalgia bias. They were garbage.

Subject 5Aug 2, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-08-02T18:55:37.159+0000)

Yeah, no. New runes are infinitely better than the old runes.

More engaging for the player. Easier to balance. Defensive rune tree is just as busted as it always was.

Theres literally 0 reason to revert runes other than nostalgia bias. They were garbage.

How much crack by the way?

Pika FoxAug 2, 20184 votes

None. This is just the plain truth.

Subject 5Aug 2, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NENJ5fGG,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T19:02:55.976+0000)

None. This is just the plain truth.

https://puu.sh/AwKP6/bad82427c7.jpg

TheSingularityAug 2, 20185 votes

Easier to balance.

SO why aren't they balanced?

Defensive rune tree is just as busted as it always was.

Where's my 30 armor from old runes? Combined with heaps of health and a sick shield from courage of the colossus? Where my dedicated MR stat? +same deal?

Oh but you get 2 trees dedicated to damage and we get band aid runes

Pika FoxAug 3, 20181 votes

Almost everyone got base ar buffs after runes reforged. You also have powerful defense runes still like bone plate, aftershock gives literally over 100 of both resists, just selecting resolve gives defensive stats.

Its like everyone just willfully ignores all the changes and just claims things are worse.

TheSingularityAug 3, 20181 votes

just selecting resolve gives defensive stats.

And just selecting every other tree gives offensive stats. What's your point? Tanks lost 850 hp and 55 armor through item changes. Everyone else has gained nothing but damage through AD item changes, true dmg and armor pen changes

The armor and MR from aftershock is conditional, so unless I could keep it going, which is impossible (2.5 second duration, 35 second cooldown) no I don't just get 100 of both resists. I get a boost when ever I engage with a cc spell for 2.5 seconds.

Pika FoxAug 4, 20182 votes

If you cant kill a priority target in 2.5s, thats a you problem.

SmokingrubyAug 2, 20185 votes

When you say revert runes do you mean revert them back to just runes or runes and masteries because those are 2 completely different things.

Im going to assume you mean to runes and masteries.

Starting with runes the old ones sucked. It was usually static stats that were worth about 1000 gold that you spent ip on and if you didn't want to you put your self at a huge disadvantage. Runes were also very expensive and couldn't be changed in champ select. This basicly forced you to by more rune pages which were 6300 ip. Old runes were necessary and expensive.

Masteries were ok, but felt like they had little impact on how you played. They were almost never situational and you always took the best keystone for your champ with almost no exception.

Warlord RhinarkAug 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Starting with runes the old ones sucked. It was usually static stats that were worth about 1000 gold that you spent ip on and if you didn't want to you put your self at a huge disadvantage. Runes were also very expensive and couldn't be changed in champ select. This basicly forced you to by more rune pages which were 6300 ip. Old runes were necessary and expensive.

This could easily be solved by just making them free and making them editable in champ select.

SmokingrubyAug 3, 20181 votes

Sure i can agree with you on that point but it still doesn't solve the problem with masteries and how bland and underwhelming most of them felt

Warlord RhinarkAug 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sure i can agree with you on that point but it still doesn't solve the problem with masteries and how bland and underwhelming most of them felt

"Bland and underwhelming"?

What's the problem with something being simple?

That's the whole point of the mastery/rune system.

It wasn't supposed to be this major thing that can win or lose you the game.

It was just supposed to be some minor buffs to help you out in the game.

New runes aren't bland or underwhelming, but they're overpowered and unhealthy for the game.

They've become the opposite of what the original mastery/rune system was.

Which would you rather have?

LeftyRaydyAug 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Core complaitns

-Damage creep is to high -No defensive runes -Snow balling feels insane

1-All the most popular runes involve more damage and offensive stats 2-Defensive rune tree sucks dick, for than you miss out on the great special abilities that the offensive rune trees give you 3- Half of the runes involve stacks that you get through kills, and are worthless if they don't stack, which puts the team that is behind at a even great disadvantage for they can't get their stacks.

Look old runes were terrible as well, but they did allow you to customize your champion to how you wanted to play it at least. I don't think reverting runes to the old system is a good idea, as we should strive for something that allows you to customize how you want to play your champions!

Critmaster GarenAug 2, 20183 votes

its easy to give up.

the old rune system wasnt any better. most people ran exactly the same rune page every single time. it was pretty much just static base stats.

the mastery system was basically the exact same as the current rune system, that was just as solved as the current runes.

having two separate customization systems was outdated design.

what they can do from here:

further tweak and change the currently existing runes
add new rune pathes to add more variety to champions who dont have a lot of options (especially a second defensive rune tree feels like its needed)
change the way base stats are bound to rune pathes
do a rework of starting items like they originally planned to give people more options for lvl 1 stat customization.

The NidjaAug 2, 20181 votes

Some what agree with the solve state on runes. No matter what riot does for the most part runes/masteries will be solved, however in the old system you had to more points of variation. You could go 6/3 or 5/4 on glyphs which added more depth you could try to really mid/max. It also allowed for some really creative/funny builds like the all ad rune pages.

In the new system you might change your runes when the enemy is picking all burst champions to include resolve but otherwise it feels very same-like. Every champion with aery uses it the same way same with lethal tempo and so on. In the old system runes changed the stats that each champion used differently. The only example of new doing this is when the champion is getting way to much out of the runes.

Quiet DudeAug 2, 20181 votes

Why not just keep the new runes and bring back the old runes to fine tune your character

OnlyMostlyTrashAug 3, 20181 votes

Let's chat, my friend.

1-All the most popular runes involve more damage and offensive stats

$30 t shirts with nothing but a company logo are also popular. Just because it's popular doesn't make it necessary, or the only option.

2-Defensive rune tree sucks dick, for than you miss out on the great special abilities that the offensive rune trees give you

So again, you WANT the damage stats, so you're CHOOSING those paths. Maybe it's my fondness for tanks, but resolve has a ton of really good runes IF you're willing to pass on some damage, which most people aren't. I get questioned about it but aftershock is really effective in my experience, but you HAVE to take electrocute, right?

3- Half of the runes involve stacks that you get through kills, and are worthless if they don't stack, which puts the team that is behind at a even great disadvantage for they can't get their stacks.

This.. this is an entirely valid point I had not previously considered. Given snowball is an issue they're looking at they should really review that function.

GirI GamerAug 3, 20181 votes

you realize that not all of us are willing to pay insane amount of RP in order to have runes for every possible situation?XD

HyquiemAug 3, 20181 votes

Downvote me if you want. But does everyone forget the complaining on grinding ip for runes? Reverting would ask for that option. But do not forget! The mastery system would be screwed since the lvl 30 cap is gone. You guys need to look at spectrum the cons will be harsh. The pros may fix the current problem but then other problems would rise.