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Hot take: "high damage" is just an excuse for poor macro and bad play.

Marshbouy··15 votes·2,585 views

People who tend to rant about how high damage is on the forums have bad macro and bad positioning.

Often times someone makes a pretty major mistake and them comes to the boards to complain about how high damage caused them to die or lose.

  1. People don't respect roams from other lanes or do not ward properly. They then get caught out with a numbers disadvantage, die, and then get mad that they were killed 2v1, 2v3, 1v3, etc.

  2. People don't respect their opponent's matchups or powerspikes and try to 1v1 lucian at level 6 as Kai'Sa and then get mad that they lost. Or people don't respect the bot lane level 2 spike and don't prepare for it.

  3. People don't position accordingly and then get mad when they're caught out, blaming "damage" for them dying.

  4. People don't recognize champions who have strong level 2 ganks and don't prepare for it.

People who want "low damage" just want to make mistakes and not get punished for them. They want to be able to survive a gank 1v2 after getting caught out at enemy tower. They want to be able to be perfectly fine after getting caught by a thresh. They want to be able to facecheck a bush full of enemies and get away without any problems.

Change my mind.

EDIT: or someone tries to 1v1 a carry who's ~5k gold ahead of them and then gets mad when they die, blaming ADC being OP or damage being to high as the culprit, not the fact they are massively behind.

EDIT: If i don't have an upvote/downvote ratio that is close to 50%, I'm not doing my job right.

41 Comments

haaaaaaalp13 votes

You have it reversed. High damage favors players with good micro play and poor macro play. A high damage meta benefits players who have poor macro because it allows teams to go for picks and fights regardless of map setup. A low damage meta benefits macro heavy players who rely on playing through map pressure and less on directly bursting down enemy champions.

Marshbouy3 votes

Please read my post before commenting.

haaaaaaalp2 votes

{quoted}

Please read my post before commenting.

Your comment doesn't address the issue properly so I was correcting you on where you went wrong.

Guzergus2 votes

You have it reversed. High damage favors players with good micro play and poor macro play.

Not at all. I've played at all levels up to ~d3-d4 and I can definitely say a lot of mistakes people make are not because of micro.

haaaaaaalp2 votes

{quoted}

Not at all. I've played at all levels up to ~d3-d4 and I can definitely say a lot of mistakes people make are not because of micro.

We aren't talking about mistakes, we are talking about the overall meta. People make mistakes in every meta.

You have to look at the difference between a high damage and a low damage meta. Micro and macro play are both rewarded and micro and macro mistakes are both punished in every meta but to a different degree. Compared to a high damage meta, a low damage meta favors macro play more.

Guzergus2 votes

a low damage meta favors macro play more.

That's not what you've written. You said high damage favours 'players with good micro play and poor macro play' and I disagree. It may reward micro more, but it doesn't mean all of a sudden poor macro is OK if you can press the buttons (I don't consider wave management and itemisation a micro skill since there is no reaction element to it).

haaaaaaalp1 votes

Compared to a low damage meta, a high damage meta favors poor macro play more simply because poor macro play doesn't matter as much.

You can't look at it in a vacuum, you have to compared to its alternatives. Again, poor macro play is punished in every meta but not to the same degree. There will be some metas where poor macro play means less and therefore is favored compared to other metas.

Vulkus I5 votes

yes because undodgeable autos from the 10/0 adc that kills me in 3 shots is totally ok

Marshbouy4 votes

incredibly thoughtful response to my post 10/10 thank you

Vulkus I3 votes

{quoted}

incredibly thoughtful response to my post 10/10 thank you

welcome bb

Fízz v21 votes

adcs dont need counterplay because they arent assassins bruhddy

ModWulf Helhammer8 votes

Yeah see the point is to stop them before they’re 10/0.

Marshbouy2 votes

exactly. Two things need to happen for someone to get 10/0.

  1. people need to screw up, big time, repeatedly.

  2. someone is inting, in which case the game is already over.

ADCs don't just load into the game with 10 kills.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Because we are totally in control of our teammates.

Illabethe5 votes

Here's an intelligent Question:

How do you stop an adc? A 10/0 adc does the same damage as a 10/10 adc. Killing doesn't do it, and deaths aren't nearly as punishing as they should.

CS? Ironically, Allies, not enemies, are better at depriving adcs of CS. A Csing support, or post lane wave clears by teams do more do damage adc CS climbing than any enemy factors. What you're REALLY saying is, "Hope and pray the adc has a team who steals her CS."

Sir Saltarin5 votes

A 10/0 adc does the same damage as a 10/10 adc.

The 10/10 adc has been dead 10 times which means that he has gotten less xp so he'll be down in levels and of course he will have less cs and total gold than the 10/0 adc which means that he's going to be ahead in items compared to the 10/10 adc.

So no, both dont deal the same dmg and if what you were trying to say is that adcs dont get punished for being behind I think you are playing other game.

Illabethe1 votes

10 deaths does not always mean less XP (There's XP catchup mechanics, and death penalties are not actually punishing people a lot; there's a reason Talons are often 25/10).

In good play, both adcs have kills/deaths.

And an adc like Vayne can be destroyed all lane and still come back to bite an entire team.....

It depends on the Adc, how it affected their farm.

And as I said in another reply:

Normally, it's actually the adcs own team which creates differences in adc power, not the adcs themselves, or their opponent. Supports steal or outright destroy lane CS( as in no one gets it), and post lane, everyone gets greedy and wave clears ahead of the adc in every lane, so it's pretty hard for her to farm at that point.

Sometimes the winner of a 1v1 adc trade is just who has the better processing power/reaction times, btw.... but at that point..... the fight is decided in literally 1.5 seconds. Which ..... says a lot, because an adc has the fastest kit to deal with an adc, and if they die that fast, so do their teammates....

2 days ago, I carried a Jinx to a 24/3 game, where she did 43k damage vs the opponent team champs doing an average of 10-12k in the same time. By level 6-7, we were 2-3 shotting everyone. And, I never had to recall as I had my good ole ...item 3003

Sir Saltarin4 votes

10 deaths does not always mean less XP (There's XP catchup mechanics, and death penal etc

On how many actual games does an ADC with 10 deaths have the same level or the same farn that an ADC that hasn't died once?

You know exactly that it's what happens in most of your games and yet you are so damm arrogant to keep talking about everything else without admitting that your "Intelligent Question" is based on a false premise.

On real games dying 10 times matters, it impacts the pace of your game, the farm the level and therebefore the dps potencial of that ADC, and if you think otherwise you are fooling yourself.

Illabethe1 votes

It actually happens often. Feeding support, or a roaming adc getting kills elsewhere. And the point is, the XP gap is so minimal due to catch up XP, that it doesn't exist that much.

Also, some Adcs can clear waves and die. Sivir, for example, can be the 10/10 and a Jinx be the 10/10, and the Sivir still has a good chance of winning, because her farm game went online earlier.

Marshbouy2 votes

Many things don't have much counterplay as or right before they're happening, but their counterplay is leading up to it. For example, there's little you can do in a 1v1 vs an assassin as an ADC, there's not a lot of immediate counterplay to a malphite ult (barring high CD spells), you can't defend 3v5 against a team with baron, etc. Does that mean these things necessarily deserve immediate counterplay? No. Their counterplay happens ahead of time.

You need to position properly around a malphite, you need to position properly and not overextend as an ADC, and you need to teamfight properly around baron.

The same kind of thing is present with ADCs.

In order for an ADC to get 10/0 something has to have happened.

  1. Bot lane is basically inting

  2. No one has ever done anything to them in teamfights or in laning phase.

If you start seeing a carry get fed, it's a good idea to head down there with 4 people and shut them down during laning phase, prioritize them with everything you have in team fights, TP gank early to create a lead, try to catch them out so they can't be protected, etc.

Or in other words, a large part of League of Legends is preventing situations in which there is little to nothing for you to do.

Illabethe1 votes

You do realize that "Abstinence" only works for so long. Eventually, you do have to defend your turrets..... take objectives... and by playing the abstinence game forever, you basically give them free CS.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're right. But I'm pointing out the PROBLEM with that being right. Which is why adc is a contention point.

Marshbouy2 votes

that's completely and utterly irrelevant to what I commented.

Illabethe1 votes

You basically said, "don't fight them when you can't win."

I know you said, "Enlist your team" etc, but what you really said was the prior, because that simply is not a feature of Solo/duo Queue in most instances.

Marshbouy2 votes

No, I said "fight them before they get 10/0"

Guzergus2 votes

I wholeheartedly agree. I do notice that the damage is a bit explosive right now, but there are still a lot of decisions you have to make which are much more macro-oriented or at least not as simple and dull as 'who presses the buttons first'. For instance, wave management, jungle paths and their prediction, correct itemisation are still present and relevant.

In the end, what people want to do is to win and kill others and if they can't do it, they usually complain instead of trying to step their game up. It's been like that before and I'm sure it will always be the same. If the damage goes lower, we'll suddenly get the complaints 'I played perfectly and yet didn't kill the enemy', 'i have a lead and can't even finish the game', etc.

SEKAI2 votes

While I can agree the points made in the OP, that people basically comes down to "people use this and that as scapegoat for avoiding to admit the they may have misplayed". But I still think that damage is bs in the game atm tho.

When I'm playing Mundo with close to full-build (full tank build) and still die or at least almost die in a matter of 2-3 seconds after initiating fights with uti on, I think there is a problem to the game's damage vs defence scale.

The thigh guy2 votes

Issues arise when the game turns into dodgeball. One skillshot hits and you’re done.

The 800 you dodged before that are completely irrelevant because one stray ludens proc took 1/3 of your hp (wish I was exaggerating)

Marshbouy1 votes

Okay, I will admit that that is fair. Ludens+liandrys+scorch+comet can easily do 400+ damage lategame (slightly less if they take aery for guaranteed damage) and is essentially impossible to dodge.

Don't get me wrong, I would like many sources of damage in the game slightly toned down. But I take issue with the constant rant posts on Gameplay that boil down to "me get caught out, me die, game no skill, reeee"

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I will admit that that is fair. Ludens+liandrys+scorch+comet can easily do 400+ damage lategame (slightly less if they take aery for guaranteed damage) and is essentially impossible to dodge.

Don't get me wrong, I would like many sources of damage in the game slightly toned down. But I take issue with the constant rant posts on Gameplay that boil down to "me get caught out, me die, game no skill, reeee"

It isn’t even getting caught out at this point. What do you do when a bruiser runs at you with ghost and righteous glory? You bite the pillow and hope he doesn’t go in dry.

What do you do when the 850 ms talon jumps 9 walls and is invisible to you cause of duskblade? Same deal

What do you do when the game goes past 7 minutes and a 1k ap veigar happens to press r? (Really exaggerated)

The amount of things they aren’t even you being caught out, but more so just choosing to exist at all killing you is absurd.

Marshbouy1 votes

It isn’t even getting caught out at this point. What do you do when a bruiser runs at you with ghost and righteous glory? You bite the pillow and hope he doesn’t go in dry.

if you're teammates aren't nearby, you're basically screwed. If you're going in alone near a bruiser with ghost an righteous glory, wtf are you thinking?

What do you do when the 850 ms talon jumps 9 walls and is invisible to you cause of duskblade? Same deal

pretty much the same thing as above, if you're a squishy and you're going it alone, you deserve to die. Plus, if Talon is MIA and objectives are warded, it's probably safe to assume he's coming towards you.

What do you do when the game goes past 7 minutes and a 1k ap veigar happens to press r? (Really exaggerated)

I know you're exaggerating, but Veigar is completely immobile and has nothing in his kit to make himself live. If he doesn't land his E (or you cleanse it ), he's dead or forced to back off in most scenarios.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

if you're teammates aren't nearby, you're basically screwed. If you're going in alone near a bruiser with ghost an righteous glory, wtf are you thinking?

pretty much the same thing as above, if you're a squishy and you're going it alone, you deserve to die. Plus, if Talon is MIA and objectives are warded, it's probably safe to assume he's coming towards you.

I know you're exaggerating, but Veigar is completely immobile and has nothing in his kit to make himself live. If he doesn't land his E (or you cleanse it ), he's dead or forced to back off in most scenarios.

That’s the point. You aren’t with your team all game every game.

Talon does this during laning phase. So your option to deal with him is “hope your team can deal with him?” That’s not counterplay.

His r is relatively long range point and click. So if he just happens to get even a little close to you, you die. Nothing to dodge, nothing to outplay. You die.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

High damage has been attributed by low item cost, earlier power spikes because of minion gold, lower base armor/MR, runes that output damage.

Change my mind.

Marshbouy1 votes

I agree. I think that people are hitting items much sooner into the game, which leads to late game coming sooner. OFC people take longer to die in those clips of season 4 games when people have only 1.5 items at 20 min instead of 2.5

Illabethe1 votes

The Purest answer: Some are. Some aren't.

I'd love for someone backing this argument to try to defend Lee Sin's Q. Lee Sin in a nutshell: Can't engage him because he stays 1300 range from you waiting for a Q opportunity. Can't survive him engaging YOU, because the second part of his Q does increased damage based on missing HP, which he caused in large amounts by his first Q.

If Lee Sin misses a Q, not punished because he's too far away. If Lee Sin is being chased, any good Lee Sin will automatically be able to hit Q, and almost erase his target. This mechanic didn't used to exist, until Season 9's rework of his Q. it used to be that you could CC him when he Q'd to you, and disrupt his W/E. Now you're lucky if you survive that long.

Adc: I half agree with existing comments. An adc has to have done something to be able to 3 shot. However...... this isn't always true..... Sivir and Jinx or Kog Ma or Twitch can all do the Instant erase damage without being fed, simply because they are powerfarmers with insanely scaling damage. Ever try to get within 1000 range of a Kog ma right now once he has a Guinsoo's? He will 100-10% you in the first 1 second, and when you turn around to try to escape, he will R you twice for the remainder. Go watch some pros play against Kog Ma. I've seen WillyP, the best Udyr in the game..... get erased by an unfed, feeding Kog Ma, without even being that close to him.

Mages: Yes. Generally, if they do a ton of damage, your team screwed up.

Nasus: Buffed infinite scaling is only dangerous when it is a Pro playing it. You won't see a true reflection of his strength when ran by players who make poor or even "okay" macro decisions. The OP damage is there. But it isn't always expressed.

Shadow Kayn: He generally wins or loses in champ select. Tank team..... he'll just go red instead. If Squishy team, he has no counterplay. If you have a mixed team, you have a chance, but he will still 1 shot some. Try playing Nami vs a Blue Kayn. He will erase her even if he's unfed, and she's building tanky, and he moves so fast through walls many times it's unavoidable.

Leblanc; depends on the mobility of her opponents. If the other team has a Miss Fortune, she will completely dominate the game.

Miss Fortune: Dunno how you can justify her Kit. As a Mage, or Adc, E is near spammable, and controls every champ in the game but Master Yi. R can get up to 8700 damage per cast. That's not OP damage? Shredding 4-5 people in 2 seconds? Most of the times it's used, there really aren't many options for the opponents, and if the opponents avoid "everything" to avoid her R, she just runs the game in other ways.

AP Shyvana: I play it and I KNOW it's OP.

macspam1 votes

Even a slighly ahead tank can 100-0 a squishy in a single rotation, when building pure tank. I think them winning trades, or out DPSing their opponent is fine but it seems like almost every fight is an automatic all-in where you have to kill them in a single rotation or they will kill you

Saianna1 votes

I wonder, have you even played when damage wasn't creeped up? If you did, maybe you don't remember the damage we used to have. Back then champions did deal lots of damage, sure, but the damage wasn't based on burst, but was spread in time. Back then sustained damage was something everyone understood. Now? Everyone bursts. Items are "have-it-all" with higher stats, true damage is everywhere, armor is at its worst since ever, champions are far overbuffed. Do I even have to write about runes?

People who want "low damage" just want to make mistakes and not get punished for them.

This part is idiotic tbh. Let me try doing it your way, for you:

People who want "high damage" just want to compensate for having small penises

See what I did there? It's just as equally stupid as your argument and it's just as true for some of players.

Bursting shit up is not a "good play". It's just: bursting. shit. up. That is all.

Change my mind.

I don't think you'd actually want to change your mind. You just wrote it cause it was popular thing in twitter some time ago I think.

Marshbouy2 votes

read my post before commenting, thank you.

Saianna1 votes

Well, you got me. I've read the one part that was somewhat most visible (the one I quoted) and from that I deducted from it and the title "oh.. It's yet another trashy thread about why high damage is fine and low damage pleb should l2p".

From the looks of it, you've gone different road... Which is also.. Arguable.

Overall you just make baseless argumentation for the other side, making soft jabs at everyone who dislikes high burst damage we have right now. It's stupid.

This thing:

They want to be able to survive a gank 1v2 after getting caught out at enemy tower.

wasn't possible even in "low damage" era. You just make things up as you go only to make the other side look worse.

Alzon1 votes

I partially agree with you. Yes, those examples are all because of bad macro play, and you are correct in saying that “high damage” is just an excuse used for those situations. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems with the overall amount of damage in the game.

As a tank player, I realize that burst has gone up slightly in recent times (but still a bit less than when DFG was a thing), while DPS has remained about the same. I am fine with this.

My issue is that I can get a perfect engage with my team right behind me and heroically die while absorbing all the enemy cooldowns... only for my team to all get hit with those abilities again. Then they die because everyone who isn’t a crit marksman has at least 40% CDR, and there is no punishment for using an ability on a tank instead of saving it for a more important target. The term “cooldown” no longer has any meaning past lane phase. Hell, I’ll see champs like Lissandra or Malzahar ult twice in a single fight because 40% CDR + Presence of Mind. I’ve done it before, too.

I’m not talking about “going in one at a time”, either. I’m talking about engaging as a Vanguard, taking all the cooldowns and surviving with 1/2 HP or less, and then dying to the marksman’s unavoidable DPS (read: 4/5 autos max) while my team takes those abilities immediately off cooldown.

Yes, damage has gone up, but mostly in the form of poke (hello Ludens + Comet + Scorch + Liandrys) and in the sheer repeatability of burst. The latter is what hurts and punishes tanks, which have long been regarded as essential for macro play in many, many games.

floo1 votes

Should getting hooked by Thresh, which happens from time to time, at level 2 be already a death sentence? And following every 3 minutes anew because of this godforsaken piece of garbage? summoner 14

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