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Can we nerf ahri's safety/consistency to give her damage that does more than tickle

ValyrianBlade··55 votes·3,741 views

Ahri has been in a rough spot for a long time now. Her mobility makes opponents hate her. The reliability of R-W damage (possibly plus ignite) causes complaints every so often (she missed charm and orb, and still bursts the adc [although honestly she must have been fed for these to happen]). Meanwhile her lack of damage makes her feel underwhelming to play in Lane, and make her feel useless late game if she's not hitting a charm on a priority target, often necessary as a R-engage from a flank. I can consistently go 0/0/0 in Lane with her, but getting kills without jungle support is nearly impossible (while it's also too easy to survive against anything that's not huge amounts of targeted damage or targeted cc).

After putting MS on her Q as "compensation" for DFG removal, she's been hated by those playing against her, but also not fulfilling the gameplay of those playing on her (poking in Lane, then going all in behind a charm / ult charm / flash charm). She simply can't poke enemies down (even if hitting everything, she runs out of mana before she gets kill threat) low enough to get an all in, because her all in burst is so low now. However any extra damage seems unwarranted in her current state, as her initial 58% win rate after these changes were implemented shows...

So i have a few suggestions to allow ahri to fulfill her gameplay fantasy (having enough damage to be a threat in a solo Lane) while also not being OP (reducing her mobility/safety or consistency of that damage). I'll order them from smallest change to largest, where ahri's W sees larger changes the further we go (let's face it, people hate on her for having guaranteed damage, when her W is auto-targeting [much weaker than actual targeted damage] and generally the least fun to use part of her kit).

  1. Make the MS boost on Q scale with rank in the ability. This won't make too much room for more damage, but it does at least make it harder for her to dodge skillshots when trading in Lane, and brings back her more vulnerable pre-6.

  2. Move the MS boost from Q to W. She'll need to burn a lot more mana (she's using q anyways, not w) if she wants to dodge stuff. Also no longer very useful if enemy already on you (fires will shoot automatically right away). Also won't create all that much room for damage, but noticeably more than 1.

  3. Do both 1 and 2 (MS on w that scales with rank). Makes more room for damage (W is maxed second or third, so she won't get the better kiting potential until level 13 or 18).

  4. Change her W ability. On first cast it gives 3 fires like it does now, but they don't auto target. The player can then re-cast up to 3 times (cooldown between recasts of, say, 0.375sec) to shoot the fires as skillshots (relatively fast missile speed, stopped by first enemy hit, short range [similar to current w range, less range than q]). Would allow ahri to have a lot more full combo damage, as she'll only get the W off if she lands a charm (and at ranks 1-2 or 3, she'll probably only manage 1 or 2 w casts on her charmed target, and allies can intercept the w damage still). Her ult would be the only non-skillshot ability in her kit. Could also allow fires to deal (potentially bonus) damage and explode if they make contact with an enemy champion before being recast (but not reapply the cooldown, or should it). Additional hits on the same target should probably no longer do reduced damage (since they're all skillshots).

With 4, you could leave MS on q, or move it to W.

I think the last change would be the best to make ahri's w actually feel impactful and with counterplay, but any of these changes would make her a healthier champion that's both more fun to play (and actually capable of getting kills by herself) and more fun to play against (either less mobile so more easily punished, or more skillshot oriented so more able to outplay against her).

Thoughts? Do you think ahri is in a good place already (please comment, I'd like to know if most people don't actually feel this way!).

95 Comments

Risk of Fate20 votes

[deleted]

RainbowIcee3 votes

she's a pretty good pusher though. I mean yeah it sucks that's not the way you want to play her, but she does put a good deal of pressure n her lane while maintaining safe mechanisms.

Syrdon2 votes

Same feeling.

I don't think she needs changes to her kit, the real problem is itemization. Her only real strengh is her playmaking potential, but she just doesn't have the dmg to do it effectively.

The three "hextech" items are meh on her, even protobelt which gives her hp she doesn't need and a pityfull 60 ap.

She doesn't benefit that much from mpen because she deals some true dmg, so the classic morello + guise + void (which is standard on every burst mage, even mage in general) doesn't feel good.

ReshiKillim12 votes

I feel that Ahri is currently in her most well balanced spot for the last 2-3 seasons, her damage isn't too high, while her current mobility leaves plenty of room to outplay your opponents, rather than stat-check them, which is what most of the complaints about Ahri were back in the days before the micro-rework.

When it comes to mana, I'd say her mana costs are in a good spot. If you're not using your mana wisely, you'll run it out pretty quickly, even with the large amount of mana available.

In terms of any mechanical changes, I'd say her foxfires should prioritize charmed targets. It rewards you for landing it against the right target, but punishes you if land it on the wrong target. Also allows tanks to protect people by bodyblocking the charm to draw away damage.

wildfox9910 votes

{quoted}

I feel that Ahri is currently in her most balanced spot for the last 2-3 seasons, her damage isn't too high, while her current mobility leaves plenty of room to outplay your opponents, rather than stat-check them, which is what most of the complaints about Ahri were back in the days before the micro-rework.

When it comes to mana, I'd say her mana costs are in a good spot. If you're not using your mana wisely, you'll run it out pretty quickly, even with the large amount of mana available.

ahri atm is so weak (if not the weakest mid laner after viktor) but she's also so easy to carry,she's a coin toss : if your teammates are good you wont feed and they will win,if they are bad there is no way you are carrying them

2 of her skills have a lower base damage + scaling than some support abilities,she can't kill someone without a full combo + ignite (and with that i mean she have to play it perfectly) and ONLY if her targets have literally no defensive items and she is going full glass cannon,you basically feel like you have to outplay your enemy for doing as much as he does

In terms of any mechanical changes, I'd say her foxfires should prioritize charmed targets. It rewards you for landing it against the right target, but punishes you if land it on the wrong target. Also allows tanks to protect people by bodyblocking the charm to draw away damage.

she literally can't kill a target even hitting everything before the lvl 11 or if her enemy have any defensive item,what she need is damage not this kind of buff,let's allow her to hit a free W when it does no damage...having more tools in her kit for making her safe is exatly what she needs [zombie-brand-clap]

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

ahri atm is so weak (if not the weakest mid laner after viktor) but she's also so easy to carry,she's a coin toss : if your teammates are good you wont feed and they will win,if they are bad there is no way you are carrying them

2 of her skills have a lower base damage + scaling than some support abilities,she can't kill someone without a full combo + ignite (and with that i mean she have to play it perfectly) and ONLY if her targets have literally no defensive items and she is going full glass cannon,you basically feel like you have to outplay your enemy for doing as much as he does

she literally can't kill a target even hitting everything before the lvl 11 or if her enemy have any defensive item,what she need is damage not this kind of buff,let's allow her to hit a free W when it does no damage...having more tools in her kit for making her safe is exatly what she needs [zombie-brand-clap]

http://na.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid

24/43

She's middle of the pack.

wildfox993 votes

{quoted}

http://na.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid

24/43

She's middle of the pack.

first off,WR is not a nice way for determinate if a champion is balanced or not,there are so many other factors,just for making a recent example azir and kalista are getting nerfed when their win rate is below 48%

anyway for a low skill cap soloQ champ is a low win rate,she's near yasuo as WR when he's an high skill cap

atm she have less carry potential than all other mid laners,she still have a 50% wr because as i said she's totally irrelevant (she wont have any impact on the game),but due her safeness she wont feed (so she get carried so easily),all is up on your team being good or bad,so the probability of having a bad or good team is...50%?

she's underwhelming to play,even riot admitted this,we just have to wait for AP itemization update

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

first off,WR is not a nice way for determinate if a champion is balanced or not,there are so many other factors,just for making a recent example azir and kalista are getting nerfed when their win rate is below 48%

anyway for a low skill cap soloQ champ is a low win rate,she's near yasuo as WR when he's an high skill cap

atm she have less carry potential than all other mid laners,she still have a 50% wr because as i said she's totally irrelevant (she wont have any impact on the game),but due her safeness she wont feed (so she get carried so easily),all is up on your team being good or bad,so the probability of having a bad or good team is...50%?

she's underwhelming to play,even riot admitted this,we just have to wait for AP itemization update

Everyone used win rate as an excuse to get Vayne nerfed but when It's used to discuss Ahri's balance it's irrelevant?

Man Ahri mains are so far up their own asses it's unreal.

wildfox991 votes

{quoted}

Everyone used win rate as an excuse to get Vayne nerfed but when It's used to discuss Ahri's balance it's irrelevant?

Man Ahri mains are so far up their own asses it's unreal.

i've never said anything about vayne,so why do you bring it? following my reasoning,someone that were wrongly looking at only her win rate said that,yet i don't see any incoherence

btw vayne got nerfed because she was too strong,not (just) because she had an high WR an high win rate (about 55%) on a high skill cap is a signal that she was too strong but it wouldn't be enought alone,but she had almost a 40~45% pick rate,almost a 100% pick/bann rate,you needed to play 5 minutes against her for saying she was too strong

ok i'll say it in a better way,win rate is just ONE of the many components that you have to consider for saying that a champion is balanced or not

ValyrianBlade14 votes

{quoted}

I feel that Ahri is currently in her most well balanced spot for the last 2-3 seasons, her damage isn't too high, while her current mobility leaves plenty of room to outplay your opponents, rather than stat-check them, which is what most of the complaints about Ahri were back in the days before the micro-rework.

When it comes to mana, I'd say her mana costs are in a good spot. If you're not using your mana wisely, you'll run it out pretty quickly, even with the large amount of mana available.

In terms of any mechanical changes, I'd say her foxfires should prioritize charmed targets. It rewards you for landing it against the right target, but punishes you if land it on the wrong target. Also allows tanks to protect people by bodyblocking the charm to draw away damage.

From an enemy perspective she may seem balanced, but playing on her she doesn't feel good to use.

If your team is doing well, you auto win because it's easy not to feed on her. If your team is doing poorly early, there's literally nothing you can do to keep them in it. You can't get solo kills to snowball. Despite waveclear, you can't roam to help allies because if you run in to the enemy jungler they'll kill you easily (ahri probably has the worst ratio of damage output to squishiness of all champions in league). I mean, you can try to roam, but if the team is behind the enemy will likely catch and kill you.

When teams are even, you might be able to roam when you see the enemy jungler on the opposite side, but otherwise your only contribution is to try to ult-charm a priority target in enough teamfights to win the game.

Ahri just doesn't feel like she offers enough impact on the game for a mid laner. Almost all other mid-lane only champions have the ability to get a lead and carry a team. Ahri can't really do anything on her own, other than not die.

ReshiKillim8 votes

I don't know about others but I strongly disagree, in my experience with Ahri, with being unable to solo kill to snowball. Unless it's vs Vlad. It's certainly a valid frustration that you can't carry with her, but a lot of other champions can't carry as well.

Personally, I feel Ahri offers a plenty of impact on the game for a midlaner. I'd say the reason it feels this way in that she doesn't have much impact, is that most midlaners have less overall agency, including Ahri, due to the current meta.

Rather than buffing Ahri, we just need better itemization for mages in general.

As for damage to squishies, Ahri has more overall damage than Lissandra, while still being a lot more mobile than Liss.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

{quoted}

I don't know about others but I strongly disagree, in my experience with Ahri, with being unable to solo kill to snowball. Unless it's vs Vlad. It's certainly a valid frustration that you can't carry with her, but a lot of other champions can't carry as well.

Personally, I feel Ahri offers a plenty of impact on the game for a midlaner. I'd say the reason it feels this way in that she doesn't have much impact, is that most midlaners have less overall agency, including Ahri, due to the current meta.

Rather than buffing Ahri, we just need better itemization for mages in general.

As for damage to squishies, Ahri has more overall damage than Lissandra, while still being a lot more mobile than Liss.

Against a dorans shield start, i can literally land every Q both sides on the enemy champion, and I'll still go oom before i get them in kill range. Admittedly not a standard start, but it seems silly that any champion in the game can guaranteed survive until my first back if i don't get a gank, even if they don't dodge anything all lane (admittedly enough autos would help).

For comparing to Liss: First, i disagree that ahri is "a lot more mobile". I think it's a toss up, and you could make a case that Liss is more mobile. Ahri has a MS boost on a low cooldown, and her R (3 short dashes on a long cooldown). Liss has a long range delayed dash on a short cooldown. That means that for one instant ahri is much more mobile (but still not capable of clearing some walls that Liss can), but in general Liss always has a dash available or nearly available, while ahri only has MS with that reliability. In general dashes on non-ult abilities are extremely valuable mobility (but ahri's ult is insanely mobile and with cdr is up fairly often, hence why I'd argue it's a toss up).

Second, you need to consider the rest of their kits. Ahri has one hard to land (can be dodged or blocked by minions) skillshot for cc. Lissandra has a short range aoe snare, and a targeted huge CC on her ult (that doubles as self preservation to help supplement her mobility / wait for cooldowns). Lissandra can be played as an ult bot (much like Malzahar or old Warwick), whereas ahri can't bring that kind of utility to teamfights. Lissandra also has free spellcasts to save mana, so she can poke opponents down enough to all in without going oom.

Otherwise, you're right that Lissandra has less damage than ahri in optimal case (both hit everything, Lissandra has 1020 + 240% AP at max rank, ahri has 1154 + 253% AP. However that ignores that Lissandra can guarantee she hits everything due to her ult (and can probably get in some second casts while they're still around), and that ahri realistically won't get damage with all 3 R casts (likely first is out of range) or W fires (2 will likely go to other targets, in Lane minions or crab in the river, or jungle monsters) which leaves her total damage at 920 + 210% AP (i.e. considerably less than Liss). And again that's assuming ahri manages to land her charm, vs Lissandra successfully pressing R while moused over her target. I don't mean to detract from the comment - perhaps Liss needs damage buffs too. I just think ahri's gameplay fantasy involves getting solo picks for kills (she's like a succubus [i don't know the exact term for her character off hand], that generally means she lures enemies to their deaths by her hands, not that she sets enemies up to be killed by her friends. Meanwhile Lissandra may thematically also want solo kills (being an ice witch) but her gameplay has always been very much "come get a free kill when i guarantee lockdown my opponent whenever my R is off cooldown".

JarodDempsey3 votes

Lissandra is by far the weakest burst mage right now. Ahri is way more mobile even considering cooldowns simply due to the inherently delayed nature of her movement skill vs ahris instant use ult plus the redirection, ahri can also travel like 30% farther than lissandra. Also as a normal skill, lissandras glacial path has a moderately high cooldown.

As far as cc goes, lissandra is the queen but ahri's charm is actually better cc than lissandras ult and what charm lacks in point and click it gains in ~80% larger range and no cast time.

Overall i think that even though lissandra and ahri are so different theyre actually quite comparable. It's like they switch e and r but they both still use q for their main damage. Their main difference is that ahris w is for damage and liss's w is for cc. As far as passives go, it's kind of a wash, liss's might be more useful in lane but ahris quickly outscales liss's, especially in teamfights located in lane where shes using numerous abilities and also hitting minions.

In general ahri's aoe is ability is larger than liss's and shes more mobile when it counts the most. She can also do more damage than liss but due to multiple dash hits being unlikely, their damage is roughly equal. Liss is more of a diver whereas ahri is more of a skirmisher. The primary reason that ahri isnt as bad as liss right now (although theyve both suffered in current meta since new runes came out and somewhat before) is due to the reliability of her movement ability vs liss's leaving such a huge window to die.

While anyone who argues that ahri needs buffs should also argue that liss needs buffs, I think that any ahri buffs might be better suited to mechanical tweaks whereas liss needs flat damage or significant mechanical changes.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Ahri needs a complete full combo against anyone who is even with her until mid game begins to transition into late game. This includes EQWRRR Ignite.

Also it's not really fair to compare Ahri to Liss when Liss has better survivability when she dives into a teamfight due to selfcast R, and the fact that Liss isn't doing great right now either.

The Soulforged5 votes

Get rid of q ms boost increase damage on it.

Salron2 votes

Q is already the bulk of her damage If anything the rest of her kit needs more damage

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

50% winrate with a 5% pick rate is the most balanced she's been in years. Take Electrocute/celerity/stopwatch and go wild

NineTailedMystic7 votes

And yet, she feels the most garbage to play in years because her damage is just god awful.

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

she isn't katarina or leblanc that's her problem

invisiblecat14 votes

Why are you trying to change her to be less reliable pre-6

Are you trying to make a second akali that is more cancerous?

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Why are you trying to change her to be less reliable pre-6

Are you trying to make a second akali that is more cancerous?

Ahri wouldn't end up weak pre 6. She'd still be good at controlling waves (either pushing out, or freezing near her tower, or last hitting under tower) thanks to her high base AS autos and her Q. Being ranged (unlike akali) would allow her to Lane relatively safely. The weakness I'm giving her pre-6 is that she becomes gank-able. Prior to getting MS on Q ahri's biggest weakness was if the enemy jungler ganked pre 6 and dodged charm, she was pretty much dead and easily fell behind (which could be leveraged into roams or a level 6 all in when she returns at a level disadvantage). MS on Q took away that weakness, which is why her winrate skyrocketed.

Also note that the 4th suggestion doesn't necessarily make her pre-6 worse (if you leave MS on Q), as ahri only really uses W in Lane when she's trying to last hit under tower, going for an all in behind a charm, or getting dived on.

Anyways, point is the comparison to akali just isn't there. Ahri has infinitely more counterplay in that the bulk of her damage is skillshot rather than targeted. She's also a lot squishier (akali can survive a short hard cc in the middle of a teamfight 5v5, ahri gets popped even with only 2 enemies). Then she is ranged, with waveclear, so she can still survive tough lanes with careful play (whereas a behind akali just gets forced out).

I'm not turning ahri in to feast /famine. I'm trying to turn her from nothing / nothing to risk/reward.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

That wouldn't happen.

FabWarlock3 votes

I don't like the thread title. It assumes Ahri needs less safety on her ult I feel, because that's what people typically bring up. I agree with getting rid of the Q movespeed. I would rather they increase Ahri's base movespeed to 340. Ahri having a base 330 movespeed feels like I'm a snail.

Overall Ahri's Q is in a good spot. I don't want damage added to it or taken off. However, Ahri's W and R are laughable and tickle the enemies even at higher levels and when she's fed.

My dream is for Ahri's W to shoot projectiles like Xerath's ult, but definitely toned down, since it shouldn't be able to outclass other champion's ults. I just want Ahri to have more utility and slightly more damage on the W and R. I also dislike the idea of bringing back charm amp. I think charm is okay already and does enough damage liker her Q.

I'd also be willing to be happy enough to ignore Ahri's bad W and R damage if they brought back her charm stopping enemy dashes/knockups again. Ahri should be rewarded for landing good charms to give her a chance to react if she wants to go in or get out. There was no better feeling than to be able to charm a Yasuo when he began his ult to cancel it, or to cancel Akali/Diana diving on me with their ults.

doubleguac2 votes

I really like your 1st and 4th suggestions. I was also thinking that one of the following changes would free up some of her power budget for more damage:

  1. Increase Q mana cost a bit

It feels like she can spam this ability very hard. She definitely has above average waveclear. She also has a lot of kill threat against someone under tower. Her play pattern of perma-shoving the wave and fishing for E's can be pretty frustrating, especially because her ult/Q make it very hard to punish her for overextending.

Increasing the mana cost would force her to choose a bit more between shoving and harassing.

  1. rework her passive

Ahri has very clear win conditions in lane (harass with Q, fish for E, all in as soon as you hit it).

On the other hand, I often have no idea what my win conditions against her are supposed to be. She's difficult to all-in unless her ult and flash are down. She has good waveclear. And, on top of that, she has quite a bit of built-in sustain.

Altogether, you end up with a champion who is very hard to fall behind with, but who can quickly gain a lead by landing just one E.

Ahri is an all-in champion. I feel that poke should be a viable counter/response to a champion like her. I don't think there's any reason for her to have sustain. It's thematic, but it doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective. Switch it out for some kind of damage passive that encourages her to take more risks.

wildfox996 votes

{quoted}

I really like your 1st and 4th suggestions. I was also thinking that one of the following changes would free up some of her power budget for more damage:

  1. Increase Q mana cost a bit

It feels like she can spam this ability very hard.

this because is the ONLY ability that she can use in lane,her W and E are useless so she will use only her Q

this ability already have an high mana cost (85),her E as well burns lots of mana (85 as well) when she have one of the lowest base mana pool between all mages,it'd be too much

She definitely has above average waveclear

not true,she have less wave clear than other mages (stuff like orianna and syndra can clear it in 0.5 sec if played in the right way),she just push a lot since her Q will hit the whole wave and her base AS is higher so she will push whit autos faster than average of mids

Her play pattern of perma-shoving the wave and fishing for E's can be pretty frustrating, especially because her ult/Q make it very hard to punish her for overextending.

her ult have a 110 sec CD so if she use it she's giving up mobility,damage and kill pressure,her problem is her Q movment speed that doesn't allow her opponent to punish her for a bad ult

doubleguac4 votes

You have good points about the mana cost on Q. I'd like to push back on a couple of your arguments, though:

not true,she have less wave clear than other mages (stuff like orianna and syndra can clear it in 0.5 sec if played in the right way),she just push a lot since her Q will hit the whole wave and her base AS is higher so she will push whit autos faster than average of mids

I'm not sure I understand what you are say here. I was saying "ahri pushes pretty fast" and your response was, "no she doesn't, she just pushes fast because she hits the entire wave and has a high AS." Yes, those are the reasons she pushes fast.

her ult have a 110 sec CD so if she use it she's giving up mobility,damage and kill pressure,her problem is her Q movmente speed that doesn't allow her opponent to punish her for a bad ult

Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing here. My point was that it is very hard to punish an Ahri for overextending. Yes, she's "punished" in the sense that now her ult is on cooldown. But most champions die if they overextend.

Succubús GF2 votes

She really doesn't push that fast Pretty sure she needs max rank q to kill them all at once with Morello give or take some casters still living. Meanwhile kats waveclear (which shouldn't be as good as it is) can qe to a wace and kill it. They punished ahris damage for her safety - her mana costs are arguably the highest for a mid laner.

And for your last point, all champions were not designed the same Let me elaborate Some champions get HARD punished for mistakes (i.e immobile mages like syndra annie or even orianna) Generally, assassins don't get punished that hard because they have a way out (example: Leblanc w, rw ; Katarina e ; Talon if he is near walls though I don't know much about talon or those cooldowns)

Ahri's CORE-identity has always been a mix between mage and assassin. Therefore, she should have the ability to get out without a heavy punishment. Seems fair to me considering her ult isn't up ALL the time unless she's lv 18 with ult hat and capped 45% cdr, then it's like every 40~ seconds

El Leche Man2 votes

You think shes been in a rough spot look at zilean, the guy hasnt seen love in a long time. His early game damage is shit and if he doesnt farm or get kills hes useless late game. Catching up is tough too

chipndip16 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Leche Man,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-01T18:52:17.252+0000)

You think shes been in a rough spot look at zilean, the guy hasnt seen love in a long time. His early game damage is shit and if he doesnt farm or get kills hes useless late game. Catching up is tough too

Zilean does NOT need more damage...

Naymliss2 votes

You're right he needs a more powerful slow [slayer-jinx-wink]

El Leche Man1 votes

exactly xDDD but seriously no game lasts long enough for him to be viable, last season he was meh. This season hes just shit

Sire Hippington2 votes

I think more than her mobillity/safety, it's her charm that holds her back. It's one of the most devastateing CCs in the game and if paired with her mobillity also not that easy to react to. It creates really huge pick potential, and if you pair it with to good damage, ahri can easily take over games on her own if she gets going.

ValyrianBlade5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-02-02T12:31:29.103+0000)

I think more than her mobillity/safety, it's her charm that holds her back. It's one of the most devastateing CCs in the game and if paired with her mobillity also not that easy to react to. It creates really huge pick potential, and if you pair it with to good damage, ahri can easily take over games on her own if she gets going.

That's sort of her ideal gameplay fantasy though. She should be able to take over games if she's landing charm after charm on key targets. That's basically her playing perfectly AND her opponents mispositioning and messing up. Most champions should be able to hard carry with that large of a skill difference.

Ahri's charm is probably one of the healthiest cc abilities in the game. It's only 1 second in cc duration at rank 1 (2 seconds at rank 5), so if you encourage her to max W second for damage, it's really not big cc. It's blocked by minions. The only way that ahri has a halfway reasonable chance at hitting charm on a free-moving target that's paying attention is if she opens with flash or R (obviously it's much easier on a stopped/slowed target or on the front line in a teamfight). That's INCREDIBLY healthy. She burns a 5 min or 1 - 2 min cooldown for a CHANCE (albeit a good one) to land her 1 sec cc.

In contrast, almost every other mid laner can go for their cc ability, and all-in behind it with their long cooldowns when it hits. Syndra can look for a stun and not burn her R until she hits it. Same with veigar cage, or velkoz knockup, or Lux snare, or xerath stun, etc...

Ahri's ult-charm combo is more in line with fizz opening with R, or Zed with W-R. Idk about zed, but fizz has a lower R cooldown (on top of untargetability in his kit) to support that play, AND can deal the damage to consistently all-in 100-0 behind a successful engage. I'm not saying fizz is op (he's melee in Lane, they're obviously not directly comparable), just that it makes sense that an engage is more threatening when you're burning your ultimate for a CHANCE. It's not like she has a malz ult that's guaranteed to cc them for her R cooldown, the enemy can dash/flash to dodge the engage (e.g. Ahri burns ult to go for charm, Lucian or vayne dodge with their dash). Or the enemy can shoot their own cc while charm is moving (R-e onto ashe, she ults your face before charm hits) (ahri probably still wins that example if she gets qw off before being stunned though).

LordGeovanni1 votes

If you nerf both her saftey and consistency then yea you can have that. Most arhi mains on the boards only want buffs without giving anything up. I disagree with your rough spot she just hasnt been a top pick for little over half a year (other champions been waiting way longer but arhi gets skins so she makes money so she gets skins so why not)

wildfox9910 votes

{quoted}

If you nerf both her saftey and consistency then yea you can have that. Most arhi mains on the boards only want buffs without giving anything up. I disagree with your rough spot she just hasnt been a top pick for little over half a year (other champions been waiting way longer but arhi gets skins so she makes money so she gets skins so why not)

that was only ahris,you are generalizing all ahri main with 1 guy

leagueofturds1 votes

Are you seriously complaining about Ahri? She has one of the longest range aoe abilities in game, mobility, decent sustain to hit lvl 6 earlier than her opponent, long range cc and a mobility spell that gives her 3 dashes in such a quick succession that even Kassadin would be pissed off about it. If anything, Ahri has an overloaded kit. Too safe in lane and too safe in team fights with a strong frontline. Just because you can’t hit your skill shots doesn’t mean a champion is weak. Ahri is an absolute lane bully early game if you have decent skill.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Are you seriously complaining about Ahri? She has one of the longest range aoe abilities in game, mobility, decent sustain to hit lvl 6 earlier than her opponent, long range cc and a mobility spell that gives her 3 dashes in such a quick succession that even Kassadin would be pissed off about it. If anything, Ahri has an overloaded kit. Too safe in lane and too safe in team fights with a strong frontline. Just because you can’t hit your skill shots doesn’t mean a champion is weak. Ahri is an absolute lane bully early game if you have decent skill.

I mean i had something like a 68% win rate on her last season. I think i know how to play her. I can hit those charms on high priority targets in teamfights late game and win games.

That doesn't mean she doesn't feel like crap to play though. Literally hitting 10 double sided Qs in a row in Lane and still not having kill pressure. Feels great.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

{quoted}

Are you seriously complaining about Ahri? She has one of the longest range aoe abilities in game, mobility, decent sustain to hit lvl 6 earlier than her opponent, long range cc and a mobility spell that gives her 3 dashes in such a quick succession that even Kassadin would be pissed off about it. If anything, Ahri has an overloaded kit. Too safe in lane and too safe in team fights with a strong frontline. Just because you can’t hit your skill shots doesn’t mean a champion is weak. Ahri is an absolute lane bully early game if you have decent skill.

I mean i had something like a 68% win rate on her last season. I think i know how to play her. I can hit those charms on high priority targets in teamfights late game and win games.

That doesn't mean she doesn't feel like crap to play though. Literally hitting 10 double sided Qs in a row in Lane and still not having kill pressure. Feels great.

It's also why I'm not asking for outright buffs. I don't think she's weak, just feels bad for both herself and opponents. I want her healthier, not necessarily stronger. More risk, more opportunity.

leagueofturds1 votes

{quoted}

More risk, more opportunity.

Is this healthier design? That sure sounds like Yasuo to me.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

{quoted}

Is this healthier design? That sure sounds like Yasuo to me.

Depends on your baseline.

I mean more relative to what she has now. Having almost no risk and almost no opportunity is terrible. Of course, going to the extreme is feast/famine and is terrible too. You want somewhere in the middle. It's okay for Ahri to be lower on the spectrum compared to others, but she should still get a bit of the way there (especially when there's always risk regardless of how mobile you are... with instant flash-cc combos and such).

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Ahri is supposed to be a kiting mage. Your suggestions take away what makes her unique to make her more generic. If you want damage, you should play an immobile mage instead.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2018-02-02T23:49:13.970+0000)

Ahri is supposed to be a kiting mage. Your suggestions take away what makes her unique to make her more generic. If you want damage, you should play an immobile mage instead.

She still kites in all of the suggestions. She just has more damage at the cost of either early safety (less ms at early ranks), early mana (needing to also use w for ms), or less consistency (w a skillshot instead of auto targeted).

Ahri was a mobile mage with damage when i picked her up (in season 4). I understand that she is a different type of champion now due to the ms, which is why I'm trying to make suggestions to give her back some damage without making her oppressive.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Why does she need damage at all? Why can't she just be safe? Why do you want a mobile champion that does damage from range? The entire point of the mage update was to make mages feel more different. Ahri fits the bill. She's not going to nuke your team, instead she just dashes around and toys with you.

She also has a 2 second ranged stun. That's absurd. She doesn't need damage on top of that level of CC.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=001a00000000,timestamp=2018-02-03T00:37:59.564+0000)

Why does she need damage at all? Why can't she just be safe? Why do you want a mobile champion that does damage from range? The entire point of the mage update was to make mages feel more different. Ahri fits the bill. She's not going to nuke your team, instead she just dashes around and toys with you.

She also has a 2 second ranged stun. That's absurd. She doesn't need damage on top of that level of CC.

"She has a 2 second ranged stun"

Yea, at level 18. If you encourage her to max W second (as most of my suggestions do, even though a lot of ahri's already max W second) then she has a 1 second ranged stun at levels 1-13 (or 90% + of the average game). She has a 1.25sec at level 14, 1.5 at 15 and 16, 1.75 at 17, and 2 at 18. Oh, AND it's a skillshot that's blocked by minions. "That level of CC" - who are you kidding? Of all champions in the game that have a hard CC ability, Ahri probably has the least CC. One second on a skillshot.

Why does she need damage? I'm saying she would feel better to play if she had enough damage to have influence in the early game when her team is losing. If her team is even, if she's joining 2v2s, etc... sure. If action is happening in side lanes and she's just trading in lane, she has absolutely no kill pressure on any lane opponent possible. That could be a problematic design.

I'm not asking for a buff. I understand she's not weak. There are just too many games that don't feel that good to play. You're depending too much on your allies to get you to where you want to be as the character - someone who has the identity of luring people to her so she can kill them alone. Ahri never kills anyone alone.

I mean, take my last game for example, you've got an enemy Shyvana that has built 750 health and 0 MR and I have a 2 level lead on her (18 to 16). I catch her around a corner, hit charm without ult in to full combo, chase with ult, get off second and third casts of Q and W, all 3 ults hit, use ignite, and still can't kill her because I'm alone. Sure, I chunked the ever living hell out of her (and when Azir came to try to save her my team caught up and we killed him as a team) but it doesn't change the fact that an Ahri with item 3165 item 3020 item 3285 item 3089 item 1026 item 1028 couldn't kill a Shyvana with item 1401 item 3748 item 3009 item 3110 item 3076 item 3082 (she may have had less at the time, that was her final build) through hitting nine fires on 3 Ws, all 3 R casts, one charm, 3 double sided Qs, and Ignite. Oh, and it was post 30min and I had Gathering Storm. I'm ignoring the probably 6-9 autos I got off as well, since she did have loads of armor. She literally had no stats on boots and 3 pure armor no health items, one tank item and one bruiser item (both giving only health) and I couldn't do squat to her (in hindsight, why the hell was she running, lol).

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If maxing Q and W doesn't give you kills, then why are you doing it? If you max W second and you still can't kill a 0 MR champ that has a 2 level disadvantage on you, I would say either you're exaggerating, or you're playing the champion incorrectly. If W is so useless then there's no reason to max it second. You need the longer duration on Charm to make up for your lower damage.

You should be thinking of Ahri as similar to Orianna, not Syndra. She's a utility mage now, she needs to work with her team to kill enemies using her long duration displacement CC effect to catch people out and then kite them. That's interesting. It's different.

Maybe Ahri should be a primary support now if she's not got the damage for mid lane. Then she can max E first. I don't know, I would rather have the players adapt to this new world than have Riot change the champion when she was already broken in the past. She should pay a price for her mobility, and she shouldn't lose her mobility because that's why people play her. So if she's too weak to be in mid lane, maybe Riot should make some changes so she can be an AP jungler, or she should shift to become a primary support. That could definitely be a thing, with quicker SS and new AP items coming.

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=001a0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-03T21:40:05.847+0000)

If maxing Q and W doesn't give you kills, then why are you doing it? If you max W second and you still can't kill a 0 MR champ that has a 2 level disadvantage on you, I would say either you're exaggerating, or you're playing the champion incorrectly. If W is so useless then there's no reason to max it second.

You need the longer duration on Charm to make up for your lower damage.

how it is supposed to help? if they get CC'd 1 sec more but you have no damage,they still don't die

You should be thinking of Ahri as similar to Orianna, not Syndra. She's a utility mage now,

so,when ahri willl have a spammable shield,AoE CCs/movement speed buffs and an AoE nuke we can say she have some ultility

she's a burst mage,she doesn't have as much as ultily or CCs as other mages so how you can call her "ultility mage"? where is her ultility compared with others?

she needs to work with her team to kill enemies using her long duration displacement CC effect to catch people out and then kite them. That's interesting. It's different.

yea,while other mids (both mages and assassins) can do it alone,and many of them can do it better

following you reasoning,what's the point of playing ahri mid when i can get blitzcrank mid?

Maybe Ahri should be a primary support now if she's not got the damage for mid lane. Then she can max E first. I don't know, I would rather have the players adapt to this new world than have Riot change the champion (...) So if she's too weak to be in mid lane, maybe Riot should make some changes so she can be an AP jungler, or she should shift to become a primary support. That could definitely be a thing, with quicker SS and new AP items coming.

hell no,not another mid that ends up being a support because they made her kit useless

she can't work as mage support because she lacks utility and base damage

when she was already broken in the past.

did i miss something? when? [sg-lux-2]

She should pay a price for her mobility

she already does

low range,not a good AoE or AoE CCs,only 1 single target CC,no utility

stop using her mobility as "tradeoff" (aka excuse) for nerfing her everything,she already pay the said price

and she shouldn't lose her mobility because that's why people play her.

her Q movement speed got added in S5 and it made her too safe,since then ahri mains are asking for its removal,she would still have mobility in her ult and that's the fun part of her kit

you just said "I would rather have the players adapt to this new world than have Riot change the champion " and now "that's why people play her",damn the coherence sometimes...you don't even know what to say for making your "points" anymore...

people atm play her because they want a safe pick when they get mid,all her playerbase (her mains or OTP) don't like her in this way

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=001a00000000,timestamp=2018-02-03T00:37:59.564+0000)

Why does she need damage at all? Why can't she just be safe?

because she's a mid laner,she's supposed to do damage,she have no utility or big CCs so where is the fun playing a game running from your enemies and hoping you get carried? (hyperbole)

having a safe champion (0 risk) but that doesn't do anything (0 reward) is not funny to play both as and against

Why do you want a mobile champion that does damage from range?

well,if i build 6 damage items i expect to deal damage (yea i'm so stupid),there are mobile ADCs and ranged assassins,i guess it'd be right for you having vayne dealing 200 damage per AA full build,she have mobility at all!!! silly me

her tradeoff for her mobility is (is supposed to be) dealing less AoE damage,having less range and CCs

The entire point of the mage update was to make mages feel more different.

isn't having a mage with mobility an unique playstyle?

Ahri fits the bill. She's not going to nuke your team, instead she just dashes around and toys with you.

yea,let's dash around and doing nothing while your teammates get stomped

(with that i don't mean she have to 100-0 without counterplay,but at least having a damage comparable with other mid laners)

She also has a 2 second ranged stun. That's absurd. She doesn't need damage on top of that level of CC.

a single target,slow cast/projectile skillshoot that CC your enemy for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 sec ,so insane

let's see what other mages or assassins do (just for name some)

Syndra E : AoE knock back + long range stun Zoe E : 2.2 sec slow + 2 sec sleep (also long range) Morgana Lux Q : 2/3 sec snare Leblanc E (R-E) : 2 sec snare (also can double snare) Evelynn W : basically an ahri charm which can be procced by non skillshoots abilities Brand Q : 2 sec stun Veigar E : 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 sec stun,blocking dashes,locking enemies in a zone for 3 sec

i'm not complaining about any of those champions,i'm just saying you are acting like her charm is the only CC of this game,when it's not even that strong compared with others CC

The Yetii Rider1 votes

(with that i don't mean she have to 100-0 without counterplay,but at least having a damage comparable with other mid laners)

Why should she be able to do that? If she can deal the same damage as other mid laners, then you always pick her because she has comparable damage and she's mobile. Other champions aren't as mobile. Ahri pays for her high mobility with a cut to her damage. This is fair. This is good. Mobility is an insanely powerful tool that has run unchecked for way too long in this game.

Eve W, Brand Q

Evelynn isn't a ranged champion.

Brand's Q was actually nerfed to 1.5 seconds during the mage update.

Syndra and Veigar are immobile. They have better CC and more damage because they can't fly around the fucking map. Same with Zoe, Lux and Morg. How about you compare Ahri to another mobile champion?

LeBlanc is the only good comparison you're making on that list, because LeBlanc is similarly a mobile mage character.

LeBlanc's snare requires a tether, so you have to stay near the enemy for some time. Ahri, on the other hand, not only has her charm instantly activate, but it prevents actions (snares still allow for attacks and spells) and actually forces the enemy to move CLOSER to Ahri while doing nothing so she can combo them.

Ahri's CC is better than LeBlanc's. Ahri's mobility is better than LeBlanc's. LeBlanc's damage is better than Ahri's. This is all fair. It balances out.

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=001a0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-03T21:35:07.830+0000)

Why should she be able to do that? If she can deal the same damage as other mid laners, then you always pick her because she has comparable damage and she's mobile. Other champions aren't as mobile. Ahri pays for her high mobility with a cut to her damage. This is fair. This is good. Mobility is an insanely powerful tool that has run unchecked for way too long in this game.

le blanc have so much mobility yet she's not pick or bann,why?

because they give up things like AoE,CCs,utility...

mid laners are supposed to deal burst,saying a mid laner which builds 6 damage items and yet doesn't deal damage is just an unique playstyle is like claiming an ADC have an unique playstyle because he doesn't have DPS,or that a tank squishy is fine,is just an unique playstyle...they are not doing what their niche is supposed to do,so it doesn't matter what else they can do they are still useless

Evelynn isn't a ranged champion.

Brand's Q was actually nerfed to 1.5 seconds during the mage update.

Syndra and Veigar are immobile. They have better CC and more damage because they can't fly around the fucking map. Same with Zoe, Lux and Morg. How about you compare Ahri to another mobile champion?

LeBlanc is the only good comparison you're making on that list, because LeBlanc is similarly a mobile mage character.

LeBlanc's snare requires a tether, so you have to stay near the enemy for some time. Ahri, on the other hand, not only has her charm instantly activate, but it prevents actions (snares still allow for attacks and spells) and actually forces the enemy to move CLOSER to Ahri while doing nothing so she can combo them.

Ahri's CC is better than LeBlanc's. Ahri's mobility is better than LeBlanc's. LeBlanc's damage is better than Ahri's. This is all fair. It balances out.

i was going to answer you,but

Ahri's mobility is better than LeBlanc's. LeBlanc's damage is better than Ahri's. This is all fair. It balances out.

are we playing the same game? you clearly don't understand the mid lane role and you don't even know the lane and the champions that you are talking about (you never played mid and since you are a low elo player i'd be surprised if you even know how the said champions works,at least what you are saying made me think that)

no point for continuing a discussion with someone that can't clearly understand the basics of this game (or at least of this role),your points make no sense at all,i'm out

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