Talon's autoattacks should WOUND the enemy as well

Wukong Airlines·Dec 23, 2016·26 votes·2,252 views

If his Q wounds the target, why cant his auto? he's still using his blade you know

42 Comments

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20169 votes

Because this way, his burst in laning phase is gated behind hitting both parts of W. If his autos could proc his passive, Talon would absolutely destroy everyone with how much damage his passive does.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20165 votes

so you're saying he's fine now in his current weak trash state?

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 201615 votes

I prefer that to autowinning every lane by clicking on the enemy, yes. Learn how to play new Talon, and you'll do a lot better. Keep playing him like old Talon and you'll suffer. Talon's passive is too strong to allow it to be reliably procced during the laning phase. That unreliability is the price you pay for how much damage that insane passive does.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20163 votes

someone doesnt know what the hell he's talking about. its been few months since assasssins rework, tell me, why there are many assassins proved to be viable and successful and very strong, and talon didnt? when we gonna stop with the "learning curve" argument and accept he needs buffs?

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20169 votes

Because he doesn't. The stats we have tell us that Talon has a huge learning curve and that your winrate skyrockets with experience, among the best in the game. Hell, you yourself have a 56% winrate on Talon and you're asking for buffs. Get real.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

I had 56% win ratio in 320+ games last season in this season i have like 50-60 games and im barely 56% win ratio, doesnt it tell anything?

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20169 votes

It tells me that Talon is fine and that you need to stop whining and asking for buffs on a champion that you're already having success on. Your Talon stats are better across the board now than they were last season. The fact that you're asking for buffs is appalling.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

Lets assume I have mastered talon, and can do good with him now, what will happen to my win ratio after playing more 300 games? and when i get out of gold again and reach high plat?

and what about the other talon mains who cant find success in the rework. its about a mass of opinions and experience, not just one

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20169 votes

{quoted}

and what about the other talon mains who cant find success in the rework. its about a mass of opinions and experience, not just one

I can totally believe that a bunch of Talon mains are struggling now that their champ actually takes still and intelligence to play. I say them and the Katarina mains both need a healthy dose of git gud.

Troll for TrumpDec 23, 20161 votes

...In other words, you're toxic. And a troll.

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20164 votes

You got it babe. Kids are sad that their champ actually takes effort to play now. I'm shedding so many tears for them.

Troll for TrumpDec 23, 20162 votes

Nah, that's just circlejerk. Aatrox Mordekaiser DrMundo aren't exactly hard to play either.

They just aren't meta so no one focuses on them.

And neither were Talon and Kat until Riot brought them into the spotlight momentarily before people realized they were bad(kat's strong though)

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20163 votes

I would argue that all 3 of these champions are actually rather hard to play, or at least rather hard to play well. I have a feeling you and I have very different ideas about what "hard to play" means.

GULAG 4 UDec 23, 20161 votes

Mordekaiser isn't too hard, you just gotta know how to play immobile shits without engages

Aatrox is basically master yi with a skillfloor without a skillcap

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20163 votes

You'd be surprised at how difficult it is to have success with underloaded champs once you get above low elo. The difference on champs like Morde, Garen, Aatrox, etc is that most of their skillcap is in knowledge rather than mechanics. All 3 champs scale very hard with player experience, moreso than the average champ. Their lack of playmaking tools and highly situational strengths requires a good amount of skill and experience to pull off against opponents who aren't bad.

Troll for TrumpDec 24, 20161 votes

You'd be surprised at how difficult it is to have success with underloaded champs once you get above low elo.

Using elo as a weapon. Nice one. They aren't underloaded, in fact, most of them are modern overloaded champs in comparison with those from the beta. The problem lies with their numbers. If you tweaked the numbers, you could reach a point where they would be balanced. However, because of their overloaded kits and/or toxic design, Riot won't buff their numbers so they won't dominate everything. (I know I can play at Plat level at least,based on the run-ins I've had with them)

Every champ scales the same with player experience. The difference lies in where the skill ceiling is. Assume two players are both Faker, for instance. They play the same, they have the same skill level. Now have them 1v1, with "Faker 1" playing Yasuo and "Faker 2" playing Morg. Faker 1 will beat Faker 2, because a good Yasuo will always be better than a good Morg. There are other small nitpicks that go into this that aren't mentioned here, but the result is the same: Yasuo will be better than Morg, or any other basic champ.

Their lack of playmaking tools and highly situational strengths requires a good amount of skill and experience to pull off against opponents who aren't bad.

And the basicness/linear/predictability of (pre-rework)Talon and (pre-rework )Kat makes them hard to capitalize on their situational strengths in high elo, requiring a good amount of skill and experience. Low elo kat, you can charge in and pop your ult, but high elo will get you dived and locked down.

At low elo, you can survive laning with Pre-rework Talon easily. Higher elo, people will actually punish you, and you will have to play around the people who capitalize on weakness.

DunkinNoobsDec 24, 20161 votes

TIL that Garen is overloaded.

And no, I'm not using elo as a weapon. It's a simple fact, the higher elo you are, the more having a simple kit hurts you rather than helps you. Better players will do a better job at outplaying your predictable kit and they'll do a better job abusing all the tools that their champion has.

And then I get to the second half and you're agreeing with me. I don't get it.

Fondling GemsDec 23, 20166 votes

Because game balance > logic.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

well, if game balance then rito confirmed talon being the weakest assassin atm, might be a good buff since most of his dmg is capped in his passive

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20162 votes

I mean hes a melee assassin that isn't gonna survive that much in melee. he should be rewarded for getting in a position to kill you in melee range.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

tbh, it wouldda been better if his spells wounded the enemies and they insta bleed for a lower amount of damage, or they shouldda changed the bleed to do true damage.

RalanrDec 23, 20161 votes

Or if his bleed applied grievous wounds.

GULAG 4 UDec 23, 20163 votes

He isn't even terrible right now. Just play him correctly. His passive deals retarded amounts of damage, if it was easy to proc, you would need to nerf the damage.

SaiannaDec 23, 20161 votes

The "oldest" version of GP had GW on his passive along to some minimal, fixed DoT magic damage. Then Riot got rid of it for something few times worse, then again.. and I think even once again has GPs passive been reworked into true damage that doesn't work with anything else than his AA.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

I don't think Talon is quite as weak as everyone says he is, but I do think his passive might be a bit too restrictive. Compare to Ekko's for a second.

Talon:

Applies on abilities
Triggers with a basic attack after three stacks
Does damage as a bleed, giving opponents more time for clutch saves

Ekko

Applies on abilities and autos
Triggers instantly upon reaching three stacks
Does instant damage

Yes, Talon's does do more damage, and comparing champion kits so directly like this is never truly accurate, but I do think Talon's passive could use a little love

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

yeah ekko at least got a first hit Q slow, which talon lost in this rework,
and adding to that now ekko got more aoe damage than talon, (Q,R), and cc too. + buffed damage from his rework what did talon get? a E that only used for mobility, with no passive and no damage/utility addition.

XeroKimoDec 23, 20161 votes

Well the delay on Talon's W return is less than Ekko's Q, and when redirecting the return projectile, Talon's much easier to hit since it's effect is slightly larger than Ekko's return Q area until it's like half way returned.

FrostySkipperDec 23, 20161 votes

If that was the case, Talon can just build attack speed item 3078 item 3153 like Irelia to proc his passive every few seconds and then go Tank items

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

but talon doesnt do hybrid and true damage. you know.

Surfer AsheDec 23, 20161 votes

But what about the armor penetration memes that boards perpetuate that renders armor useless? :^)

ShaydroxDec 23, 20161 votes

He's weak but this won't fix him. I like his combo and ability oriented playstyle, having 1 or 2 autoattacks at most to finish off targets is great. Main issue with him is his Qs low range. He might be mobile, but there are some scenarios where you cannot use walls as much as you'd like, in those scenario's he isn't just bad: he's essentially worthless. You might as well walk away because you cannot even get to an ADC unless you try blowing your ult first (which will result in you getting solokilled by the adc as your W is too slow). His Q range just needs an extra 50, other than that he might need ratio buffs on his W/bleed lategame as his damage falls off a bit too hard lategame making him useless.

Wukong AirlinesDec 23, 20161 votes

the only thing i request to change more than anything else is remove the delay on his W

that would perfectly make him viable without buffing any damage onhim.

Kuzja1Dec 23, 20161 votes

What I do is build Cool Down reduction items first, particularly items that build through item 3133 and item 3057 separately. item 3158 is optional depending on which cd reduction items you are building. With low cool down time, not only could Talon use his environment more often, but his abilities are most of the time available when needed, including his ultimate. You want to reach the maximum cool down reduction which is 40%. Then you can start building damage dealing items afterwards.

As the spotlight suggests, you want to get creative on your ganks. Hop through terrain on certain angles enemies do not suspect and go straight for the squishies. But remember to coordinate your team. This is a game about teamwork afterall.

The only downside to Talon is he's weak against tanks, at least during the early game phase. Once you build lethality, then you'll do a little bit better. But avoid crowd control effects and use your ult to hid or evade if needed. Once you are rooted or stunned or knocked airborne, you're done for unless luck serves you well and either your teammates save you or the pursuers make a mistake.

Talon is an example of what an assassin should be: Someone who takes out his target and gets out before getting caught (Unless the other enemies are low on health too, which in that case, go for it). Evading pursuers is really easy as long as you use your environment sparingly. The lowest cool-down I've ever reached for Assassin's Path on each environment was 37 seconds or lower.

Here's my item list for when I lane as Talon: item 3009 item 3071 item 3025 item 3147 item 3072 These last three are optional depending on the situation: item 3033 item 3036 item 3031

I'm still working on finding a good build for jungle Talon but I'm pretty close.

One more thing. You guys like to say Yasuo is cancer. For me, as a Talon player, that's nothing, at least not anymore. If I'm about to get knocked in the air, I quickly ult so he can't target me, then I can go for the kill. I use summoner 14 to help support my passive to really finish the job.

AS I LAY FEEDINGDec 23, 20161 votes

It dosent count as a AA, it's a spell, it dosent work with Tiamat it's sad and the rework is bad.

Edit: When i play Talon i play him top as a bruiser item 3071 item 3742 item 3156 item 3812 item 3009 item 3748 Buying lethality is garbage and waste i rather have high sustained dmg than bursting than dying constant.