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New Iteration of Ahri Changes Incoming, Looks Promising:

HalcyonDweller··2 votes·738 views

Hi Folks,

It looks like they are planning to test a new iteration of the Ahri changes:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pPDhA5nzYAo/WsOhSB1VvsI/AAAAAAAA8nw/l06tc4oLblMXAitjEep3krKmm8ZaDSOKgCLcBGAs/s640/DZ0vnw_U0AArQPR.jpg

More info with context: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2018/04/43-pbe-update.html

Personally I think this looks promising, they've found a way to take away the free movement speed from her Q while still allowing players to make use of it if they use it skillfully, and they have made Fox Fire feel more under your own control.

Edit: Now that I've had a night to sleep on it I have more thoughts about this iteration, first I will give specific thoughts then some more general thoughts. I haven't had the opportunity to playtest Ahri yet, but I'm looking forwards to trying this iteration today or tomorrow. As such these thoughts are based on just analyzing the descriptions of how the abilities work.

Vastayan Grace (Passive)

I like having it at least conditionally, and it will be good in trades while not being so good for poke or escaping. IMO this is an improvement over having the movement speed on her Q and also an improvement over not having the movement speed at all.

That said, this iteration of the movement speed is probably a little bit too safe, she can still just throw Q or W on an approaching enemy and run away. It might be worthwhile to make it so she only gets the movement speed if she's within a certain range of opponents, or only towards / perpendicular to those opponents.

Orb of Deception (Q)

It is a good idea to move the heal passive onto this ability, since this was the only ability that was ever optimal to use it with anyways. S+ good job.

Fox Fires (W)

I like having more control over the ability, it's cool that we could use attacks or charm to mark targets for the orbs to hit. But aside from that, the range increase looks clunky, it feels to me like it runs counter to the goal of making her more risk-reward instead of safe.

Charm (E)

I understand that people wanted the damage boost back, but there's a small problem I see with putting it on charm. It makes it feel like you are expected or forced to only follow one spell rotation; E -> W&Q. It makes me feel obligated to not trade unless I land charm, for fear of missing out on the optimized damage.

I think it might be more skill expressive if the damage boost were moved somewhere else such as on Fox Fires, for example; "each fox fire that strikes a target increases Ahri's damage against that target by X% for a short duration. This would also make it more fair for opponents because if they get hit by Fox Fires they could still escape, whereas with the current iteration, if they are hit by charm they are just doomed to take an assload of damage because they are cc'd and cant even try to escape it.

Spirit Rush (R)

I haven't had a chance to try her out on the PBE so I don't know if this iteration has 3 or 5 charges, but I just want to emphasize that 3 is plenty. It's thematically appropriate, and it gives Ahri plenty of opportunities for outplays. We don't need 2 additional charges.

33 Comments

Onotori3 votes

So we're buffing a champ who has NEVER been in a bad spot, why? Oh right, she makes a lot of money, that's why.

Ignore the fact she has never been below a 50% winrate with an absurd playrate.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

She's never been in a bad spot because of her safety. That doesn't mean she's strong. Any champion that is harder to feed with will naturally have a higher win rate because if you don't feed you are easier to carry.

Onotori2 votes

So... Why doesn't Liss have a 50+ winrate permanently? LeBroken? Lux? Ori? Syndra? Tali? Xerath? Ziggs? Zoe? All very safe, yet their winrates (minus Ziggs because he's broken though no one admits it) all fluctuate pretty hard, and a lot of them have below 50% winrates a lot of the time.

Something doesn't quite add up.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

Gosh, it's almost like being able to dash 450 x3 distance is safer than having CC, damage, or Zhonyas built into one's ult. /s

wildfox992 votes

it's actually the worst

you are still bound on hitting her charm as first ability which kills her gameplay fantasy and makes her too telegraphed and binary,giving her her exactly **one ** viable play pattern,always the same combo in the same way

ms wont be more skilled at all,throw a Q on enemies if it hits you get this ms like before,if they dodge it they are disengaging (they would need to back off or sidestep it)

W is still s_h_ t whit a bit better targeting,but it could be still be improved and with an unneded range buff that will only make her safer

R lose so much base damage that even with the scalings buff unless you are almost full build it will deal the same if not less damage

basically all what he did here was moving her passive to her Q and her Q ms to her passive,making almost useless changes on her R (damage will be about the same) and giving her a boring and binary ability that will be nerfed for sure since she's not losing her safety at all

nice work rick,you backed at the initial goal : give her more damage and less safety [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Hey now, what's wrong with conditional movement speed?

The targeting stuff helps W to feel a lot less crappy to use. What would you have suggested instead?

How about for W it was changed so that Ahri had to hit all 3 on the same target to get most of the W damage off, and have the range be lowered a little bit again?

wildfox991 votes

Hey now, what's wrong with conditional movement speed?

well,it's conditional but it wont make her less safer since it's still reliable when you want to kit or escape,and that is holding her W from having an (almost) decent scaling

What would you have suggested instead?

making ahri the center of the ability instead of her foxfires,it'd make this ability way more intuitive than 3 foxfires that start to target from 3 random points around her

foxfires try to engage different targets unless they are marked with AAs or charm

but it could be fine as it is on PBE without the range buff,i really don't like it since you need to take less risk for proccing it (aka more power budget spent in safeness and less in damage/untility)

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

well,it's conditional but it wont make her less safer since it's still reliable when you want to kit or escape,and that is holding her W from having an (almost) decent scaling

Well right now it has a 9-ish second cooldown (in testing) so maybe that could be fixed by putting it on a longer cooldown? I think Riot's goal is to make it useful in trading and not as useful for safety.

making ahri the center of the ability instead of her foxfires,it'd make this ability way more intuitive than 3 foxfires that start to target from 3 random points around her

foxfires try to engage different targets unless they are marked with AAs or charm

but it could be fine as it is on PBE without the range buff,i really don't like it since you need to take less risk for proccing it (aka more power budget spent in safeness and less in damage/untility)

I agree that the range buff seems a bit strange, personally I like having it be something that requires more risk to succeed with, but I do like that they made it so you could force them to focus a particular target.

Wild Geese2 votes

I'm very happy about them giving her back the movespeed boost! Fox fire will actually be useful!! Looks like this is the one! Ahri Ahri Ahri

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Yeah I'm excited about it too! We'll see how testing goes, I hope that this one sticks.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Added some deeper analysis and thoughts regarding this iteration, if you've got the time give it a read and let me know what you think! :)

Vekkna1 votes

Looks like her all-in during lane phase is going to be a lot stronger. Like, you're super fukt if she lands E at 6.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Quite true, but that had always been the case before she got reworked to her live state, I'm pretty sure Riot is trying to bring that back.

Eedat1 votes

What do they expect is going to happen when they give her the damage amp back and still let her keep some of the movespeed?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Heck if I know, but they're nerfing the base damage on her E to compensate, and honestly this is much tamer than having 5 dashes on the ultimate. Just saying they tested much stronger buffs before so they seem to be looking to add some power to her regardless.

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

{quoted}

What do they expect is going to happen when they give her the damage amp back and still let her keep some of the movespeed?

What i expect is her damage to get gutted after it's been on the live servers for a while to keep that movespeed :^) can't wait to go back to maining adc/support

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Those are fair points, I hadn't thought about Phase Rush actually. But it would come at the cost of other keystones....

Although I think they were trying to make it so if she falls behind she can't do as much, that was part of what they were trying to do, right? Higher highs lower lows?

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Yeah I'm with you on that. I edited the post to include a deeper analysis of this iteration, give it a read if you've got the time, I'd be interested to catch your thoughts about those ideas.

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fate Fire,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAO3LuEV,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-04T19:33:05.081+0000)

Just a note: I started playing her roughly at the tail end of DFG I believe. Late S4 into S5 so my take should be considered with a grain of salt.

Understood, however all feedback is good feedback. Everyone's opinions are valid, so long as they pertain to the topic of discussing the kit and such. Don't cut yourself out of the loop too much. I've played Ahri on and off since her release, FYI.

Hm, not sure I think moving the damage amp would be the best thing since that's kind of her focus. That said, I could see lowering the % outright in favor of shifting it more into W utility.

I see what you're saying here, I'd certainly be interested to see more W utility. I guess I just mostly don't want to create another Release-Zoe where you hit people with the CC and then that's the end of the counterplay.

Not sure if there's any truth to it or just me imagining it, but W has always served as a sort of sidestep against skillshot-based matchups. When she activates and does that little dance, I imagine that I stop in place and take a step sideways in a 90-degree quickstep (hoping that makes sense). Otherwise, I'd use it as a Diana-shield sort of thing since I never really knew if they were doing anything when I ulted into a fight.

I don't quite understand what you mean here, most of what I'm understanding from it is that you have felt like her W is clunky to use, which is something I agree with, if that is what you were getting at.

One point that's always brought up is to give it more damage, why not make it more of a defensive option? That or maybe have more control over it such as "Ahri has 3 orbs that orbit her, being released on each spellcast on the nearest available target (prioritizing Champions)"

More defensive or more controlled are indeed great ideas! Hopefully Riot is giving that plenty of thought, they're certainly trying more control with this iteration being able to mark targets with attacks or with charm.

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'm sorry I still don't understand :( Maybe it's just doomed to be lost on me. If you want to keep discussing feel free though, maybe I'll catch on eventually. I just don't want to keep you here with any obligation of responses if you don't feel like it.

Bisaknosp1 votes

she will feel clunky in comparison to now (redirecting the 2nd part of her q was kind of a fun thing, not possible anymore without ult) her w is still useless before 20 min and her ult dmg will be lower early so they are nerfing her laning great now you have to hit charm no matter what if you want to engage early all in all i cant see how these changes will make her better when ahead and worse when behind wish someone else would work on her

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

she will feel clunky in comparison to now (redirecting the 2nd part of her q was kind of a fun thing, not possible anymore without ult)

Yeah I liked it too, but too many people complained, at least she still gets the speed somehow in this iteration, if you land charm or W and then Q you can still use the boost to redirect the second part of Q.

her w is still useless before 20 min

Really? How/why?

and her ult dmg will be lower early so they are nerfing her laning

That was sort of the point, lower lows, higher highs....

great now you have to hit charm no matter what if you want to engage early

That was literally the point of reworking Ahri. Everyone complained about not having the damage boost against the charmed target. Now Riot is bringing it back. I personally couldn't care less about the damage boost on charmed targets, but it seems like enough people wanted it that Riot is trying to make it happen.

all in all i cant see how these changes will make her better when ahead and worse when behind wish someone else would work on her

They've done a great job at listening to feedback and incorporating player preferences into each iteration they test. That's more than I would expect from most game devs. Don't be so unfair to them.

Bisaknosp1 votes

nop the ms you get now isnt high enough to do that (didnt test, but pretty sure about that one)

because her w is garbage damagewise, i'm exaggerating a bit when i say its useless before 20 min

yea but making her a walking minion isnt that great either, i can live with 120 sec early, but the other 2 should be lowered champs like orianna, zed, talon, syndra and many more will devour her in midgame lol

it makes her feel binary and i think thats why it was changed i dont want to be forced to start an engage with a certain spell that is easy to sidestep/flash

not really the other reworks were just lazy reverts/nerfs/recycles(by that i mean it was old ryze passive on her ult)

the passive change will make her just as safe if not safer pre 6 (doesnt need q to get the ms) so for that she doesnt get as much dmg as in the previous changes

idk all i can see in these changes is failure

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

nop the ms you get now isnt high enough to do that (didnt test, but pretty sure about that one)

It's not for full redirects, but it can work for partial ones. That said I still think it could be improved a bit, as I explained in the original post.

because her w is garbage damagewise, i'm exaggerating a bit when i say its useless before 20 min

yea but making her a walking minion isnt that great either, i can live with 120 sec early, but the other 2 should be lowered champs like orianna, zed, talon, syndra and many more will devour her in midgame lol

That's a huge exaggeration.

it makes her feel binary and i think thats why it was changed i dont want to be forced to start an engage with a certain spell that is easy to sidestep/flash

I agree with you on this part.

not really the other reworks were just lazy reverts/nerfs/recycles(by that i mean it was old ryze passive on her ult)

So? There's nothing wrong with trying things to see if they work. They didn't keep those changes so there's no harm done.

the passive change will make her just as safe if not safer pre 6 (doesnt need q to get the ms) so for that she doesnt get as much dmg as in the previous changes

Pretty sure they're aiming to increase her damage, not decrease it.

idk all i can see in these changes is failure

Well I disagree.

Sonasaurous1 votes

I'd honestly rather they reworked her passive into some kind of mark rather than give her movement speed. I mean, in terms of the movement speed, if they increase the charges on her ultimate then she really doesn't need movement speed on her passive--and once upon a time, Ahri was pretty good without the MS on her Q. Then if they added some kind of mark on her passive, like say she needs to auto attack or hit an enemy with one of her spells, then either she deals increased damage to them for X seconds OR tie it to her E and if she E's a marked enemy THEN they take X% increased damage. I don't know, anything but movement speed would be better, in my opinion.

I used to play Ahri a lot before her horrible rework, back when she was a mage assassin. But now she's just a super safe mage with meh damage. I'd much rather they put more emphasis on the assassin side of her again and give her back her high risk-high reward gameplay. But that's just my humble opinion.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Kaikai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAO3LuEV,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-05T17:12:02.135+0000)

I used to play Ahri a lot before her horrible rework, back when she was a mage assassin. But now she's just a super safe mage with meh damage. I'd much rather they put more emphasis on the assassin side of her again and give her back her high risk-high reward gameplay. But that's just my humble opinion.

I've played her since release, I'm familiar with the various iterations she's had on live servers. I enjoy the movement speed because it makes the Q feel more skill expressive to use, but I understand people disliking her damage having to suffer for her safety. That's why I've suggested finding other ways to balance her, like keeping the damage boost from charm, but putting it somewhere else in her kit so that people have more counterplay to it, and making her Q movement speed more conditional (so that she can't just use it to run away).

I'd honestly rather they reworked her passive into some kind of mark rather than give her movement speed. I mean, in terms of the movement speed, if they increase the charges on her ultimate then she really doesn't need movement speed on her passive--and once upon a time, Ahri was pretty good without the MS on her Q. Then if they added some kind of mark on her passive, like say she needs to auto attack or hit an enemy with one of her spells, then either she deals increased damage to them for X seconds OR tie it to her E and if she E's a marked enemy THEN they take X% increased damage. I don't know, anything but movement speed would be better, in my opinion.

I remember flashing to land the second part of Ahri's Q back before the movement speed. It felt good to make plays like that. But having to dance around at the edge of a fight while searching for perfect opportunities to act feels really good with her, and that movement speed helped that purpose.

I think the damage boost from charm should be moved to Fox Fires, it would work really well if say, each Fire applies a stacking debuff to the target that causes them to take X% increased damage from Ahri per stack. This would reward her for spacing her abilities out and positioning so that the Fires hit the same target. Plus having the damage boost on charm is like Zoe's Sleep spell all over again, all-or-nothing dodge-or-get-fucked skills aren't fun to play against, and I don't want that for opponents. For a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that Ahri will get banned a bunch more in champion select if she becomes more frustrating to play against.

Rune Ocarina1 votes

I wish Ahri would get a VGU (that's what Irelia just got right?) It feels like it'd be a good way to just go back from the beginning and build Ahri from the ground up and potentially discover some new things about her kit that they can't now because of what they are forced to work with. Gameplay updates like this are never my favorite because it just feels like they're trying to put a band-aid on something when they could do so much more and go even further. (Plus, Ahri's model is really outdated at this point when compared to things like Star Guardian Ahri)

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Hmm, I suppose I would be in favor of a VGU, it would give them more room to experiment with cooler effects and ability updates.

That said she is already a lot of fun to play, bot has she is now on live and how she used to be before her rework, so there's a lot to work with already that probably doesn't need to be redone.

I'd like to see her get a mini-VGU. Fox Fires just needs to be reworked, it could carry some of the same elements, but it definitely needs more in-depth changes. Her ult uses fox fires too actually, which just screams at me that she should get fox fires as some kind of passive that works on ability-cast, maybe with some sort of cooldown. Her ult could refresh this cooldown every cast so that she gets to use the fires on each ult cast still. It's mostly just a shuffling around of the effects but it would make her more thematically cohesive.

Then the Fox Fires could be given effects like applying debuffs to enemies hit, maybe these debuffs could stack. They could either make her get healing from landing abilities on them (to pay homage to her soul-draining origins) or made to increase her damage against the affected enemy (to pay homage to people wanting the damage boost back like what she got from her charm on her release-kit).

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