While your jungler is afk farming.
So you just sit there getting camped while theres nothing you can do, oh well you deserved to lose lane/game because your jungler was worse than the other.
Fun btw, junglers are not broken btw, "team game" where 1 player has 3 times as much impact (jg) that decides if i get to play the game or not.
Jungle nerfs cant come any sooner.
DexterousGecko12 votesOver-leveled jg when you're top? Huh? I can tell you've never played jg if you think jg is over-leveled lol. I usually am a solid level behind solo laners until later on in game. Level 3 is the ONLY time I'm ahead of laners.
ForFoxSakes1 votesThis,
Also especially now that almost all junglers need to start bot for a strong leash because they'll get fucked up by jungle monsters on first clear, or will be super slow to get to the 2nd buff compared to the other jungler, top and mid should almost always expect a level 3 gank these days
D357R0Y3R10 votesBoy it's fun to play a passive bot lane 24/7, then whenever a support engages from whichever side you know it's going to be a 2v3 gank
Battalion10 votesWhat season of League are you play that one of us Junglers would bother ganking top lane? I mean seriously, what is the advantage of ganking top instead of counter jungling enemy topside? There is none. Not to be a dick, but the fact that you're even getting ganked must mean that your jungler isn't pressuring the bot-lane enough (which is the way you win currently).
Banuvan1 votesWhat season of League are you play that one of us Junglers would bother ganking top lane? I mean seriously, what is the advantage of ganking top instead of counter jungling enemy topside? There is none. Not to be a dick, but the fact that you're even getting ganked must mean that your jungler isn't pressuring the bot-lane enough (which is the way you win currently).
I'll kill an overextended top real quick for a good kill/assist and to push that top lane. It also helps me to know that top laner isn't going to roam/ward while i'm counter jungling or killing rift herald.
Battalion1 votesI mean if the top is overextended you might as well take the gank, but that's not going out of your way, you're just picking up a free kill.
Snowman Arc1 votesFree kills to get fed faster. Really good to gank top as Graves, as you don't really have other lanes that are easy to gank with him. Mid is easy to go to tower and bot is easy to disengage generally. Top is free kills with just red buff.
TS Media1 votesTop is honestly the easiest lane to gank if you have a good laner. Plus, blowing tp and helping your top lane snowball makes the game so much easier -- especially if that top laner makes tp plays down bot lane. I'm sorry, as a jungler, I camp the hell out of top lane and pressure so hard that the rest of the enemy team is normally forced to come top by about 10minutes into the game.
Bot is not an easily manageable gank.
SirPurrr7 votesYeah so overlevelled as a JG that it takes me 8 minutes to reach level 6 on most of them. JG so OP! Make camping illegal! You realize if you play well and the camp does NOT work, the fact that your JG is either farming or impacting other lanes is HUGE for your team, right? You don't even have to match CS for it to be very detrimental for the JG camping... if that's really what he's doing.
Some tops think ganking 2x in 2 minutes is camping and that's definitely not the case. No, what usually happens is that you die to the standard and super obvious level 3 3 minute gank but I didn't even finish clearing my JG before ganking you. Thus, I go back and take Scuttler, or I take your JG's Krugs, maybe I do my Gromp. Then I come back and kill you in the same manner because you haven't learned shit. Now, if I again wait for you, then yes, that would be camping and it's VERY expensive for me since I don't even have anything to farm there. It's usually not a good idea for me, especially if my top now has the lead. That's true camping and if you survive my attempt to do this now and didn't feed during the other ganks, it's very likely that I lose Dragon or my entire bot jungle and I fall behind in gold/xp anyway just waiting so long.
Automated Riven7 votesI hate to break it to you, but if it takes you 8 minutes to hit six in the jungle you are doing something super wrong.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesIt is at least 7. The second buff which spawns at 7:30 usually is what gets junglers level 6 9 times out of 10. Unless you are 3/0 or have literally NEVER ganked and instead taxed lanes that died or taken multiple of the enemy junglers camps you aren't getting 6 prior to that.
ForFoxSakes1 votesYup, meanwhile the solo laners will be level 7. They usually get 6 around 6:10. So much for these "overleveled jungler" cries by those who don't ever play jungle...
Kilanost7 votesJungle is the 2nd weakest role in the game right now in terms of xp and gold. Has been since the start of S7. If ur underleveled compared to a jungler, you're getting pushed off farm in lane which is essentially your fault for not playing safer.
Thilmer7 votesI'm not sure if junglers are too powerful or toplaners too weak, but playing Top has sucked balls the whole season 8.
SwiftKitten886 voteslol at "over-leveled junglers" top lane is a solo lane.. there is zero point in the game except lvl 3 where jungle will be ahead of you and next patch we wont even have that.
Mr Mxyzptlk6 votesTo add on to this after you get stomped 2v1 in top lane your bot lane tells you to swap and forces you to go 2v1 bot lane to farm for the rest of the game. Boy top lane sure is fun.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesHm i love it. Sitting botlane with boots and maybe phage/sheen same level as the enemy botlane because of the lane swap and the constant 1v2. So everyone just rushes tiamat and afk waveclears top or plays a tank ResidentSleeper.
Ungrateful Thug4 votesI know that this isn't really the point of the thread, but since we're talking about jungle and top lane....
What makes it even more frustrating is that I can't even fully blame my jungler if they ignore me in top. With the state that the game is in, they are basically encouraged to live on the bot side of the map after the first five minutes.
On the flip side, I've had games where I jungled and just ignored top lane completely. Even as my top went 0/4, I just sat bottom and won the game because our ad got so fed.
ForFoxSakes1 voteswell ya, most of the time the top laner is just there for tanking, CC, splitpushing or initiating. The other 2 lanes contain the carries
BestPudgeNA4 votes"Junglers get more XP."
I can't believe people actually upvote this trash post.
saltran4 votesSorry that the enemy jungler did his work and ruined your fantasy 1vs1 in a 5vs5 game.
Bobloser35553 votesyou know what a big sacrifice it is for a jungler to camp a lane? he loses so much farm and he will be behind your jungler who can then gank bot which is actually good for your team, just be happy they waste their time on you and you can play safe and your bot lane will stomp their enemy and carry the game.
Mr Mxyzptlk4 votesWhat you just said was all by chance. Typically your jungle won't capitalize off them sitting one lane for 10 minutes. You have to literally pray your bot does well or your jungle has enough of a brain to take advantage of all the opportunities he has but unfortunately even at diamond elo people don't do this.
HeeroTX1 votesI honestly (dead serious) had enemy laners chase me to 2nd tier turret (PAST 1st tier turret which was STILL UP) and my jungler was inside what would basically be my vision radius clearing camps in jungle. I pinged him. Enemy laners got the kill and then escaped and jungler didn't do a DAMN THING. (oh, but he got his camp, that was important)
JackMcSnipeyz3 votesToplane: " WE HAVE NO IMPACT ON THE GAME WE WANT TO IMPACT THE TEAM" Also toplane:"WTF? Jungler ganks me? I want to ONLY 1V1"
Literally every lane can get camped, it's not exclusive to toplane.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesThey're only going to be a higher level than you until you hit 5. At which point you will be a higher level.
They reach 3 first, 4 about the same time as you do, and you hit 5 and all further levels first, unless you get your face stomped in and end up 3 levels down on everyone else, or unless they get really fed.
RIP Tahm Kench2 votesHow exactly could a jungler camp top lane and yet still be over leveled? Just getting to level 4 as a jungler on your first clear takes either a full clear of all camps and 1 scuttle, take every camp except krugs and take both scuttlers, or clear most of your camps and then tax a wave from a laner. Each situation you're looking at an almost 5 minute clear time before your first (over leveled) gank, and every solo lane is probably only half a level behind you if at all.
The afk farming jungler probably just cleared at 4:30, went B to heal and get blue smite + boots, and went out to gank in the 1 minute of downtime in between camp spawns. If they go bot and both players pop their flash to get away, he gets no assists so it looks like he did nothing (even though taking flashes gives your laners a huge advantage). Then gromp and wolves are back up and you need to get back to farming before you get out leveled by the supports.
It's not as simple as "he always out levels me and my jungle is always afk farming", you need to afk farm to out level people, and not every time you clear one side of the jungle will there be a gank available.
Bobloser35551 votesScuttlers give so little xp its only for the gold and vision not for the xp.
IT3etlWEXJ1 votesIf they're the same damage type you can buy a resist item and 2v1
koshkyra1 votesThe sàme can be said for mid as well
Snowman Arc1 votesWell, just to start an argument / discussion, farming junglers is a thing. I play quite a lot of Graves, who isn't the best ganker, yet I find success because I do well what he does well; get in the face of the enemy jungler, steal their camps and deny them a lot. Now, if they manage to pull of ganks to cover it up, they just fall behind way too much.
Laners need to identify what the junglers strengths and weakness are. For example, you can't have a Shyvana jungle and except her to gank you. You need to adjust your play style and laning patterns based on how the junglers can affect it. I can play more aggressively early if they have a Nocturne jungle, or I should play more defensively vs Zac.
I understand it's frustrating to not be able to enjoy a 1v1 lane, if you are the only one getting spam ganked, but it's part of the game.
HeeroTX1 votesAs someone who admittedly does NOT play jungle (it is literally my LEAST played role and ONLY if forced) this is semi-useful information. Seriously it is good to know, but I would ask in response: OK, how long do you need to "farm up"? I'm a Tristana main, and I have a solid idea of when/where I'm stronger. If you're playing a "farm" jungle, then WHEN are you gonna show off your power? I ask because the current META basically means a lead can be (nearly) insurmountable by 10-15 mins. If you're farming up and the enemy is ganking heavily ALL the lanes are gonna be behind, so if you're "even" (or slightly ahead) the TEAM is gonna lose unless you're a smurf god.
This is not to excuse moronic laners. People can (and often should) play at least safe enough to avoid a gank. But I regularly get games where I am pushed under turret (in bot lane) and I see Top & Mid die several times to enemy ganks and I know at least MY lane never sees ANY ganks, and I later see chat messages of at least one of the other laners complaining of same. If you as a jungler can turn around EITHER of those losing lanes once you come online, then I'm totally fine winning or even just holding my own lane to get us the win late. But if you CAN'T do that, then what's the point in playing a weak early game jungler that needs to cower and hide from the enemy jungler in the early game?
Snowman Arc1 votesI will answer assuming that the jungler knows what they are doing.
Farming junglers are never 10-15 minutes of hard farming until I'm far ahead. It rarely happens. There are some that can't work without their R like Nocturne or Shyvana, but that's an exception more so than a rule. I can play Graves and I can ignore lanes a lot. I can go on a hard farming mission and counterjungle a lot. Even then, that's very helpful for my team. Even at level 3, being able to invade the enemy jungle so you have the chance to spot them is really important.
On Graves, I have gone without ganking quite a lot, but I always make sure to have my time spent doing something good. Denying camps for the enemy jungler, taking Scuttle for vision, placing vision in the enemy jungle, even killing the enemy jungler. Another good thing to do while farming is try to know where the enemy is, so you can take such paths that assist in some sort of counter ganking.
I understand the frustration of the laners that aren't getting help, but only get ganked themselves, especially if behind, but it's also important to realize how good my play style is. Essentially, if the enemy jungler doesn't get ahead by a lot or snowballs the lanes a lot, and my laners realize what they need to do, I get huge leads and make the game 5v4. It requires good team communication, which is hard to find, but it works because it's the most reliable thing to do. If you're a ganking jungler and the ganks don't work, then you are screwed because you fall back.
There are really a lot of thoughts in my mind that I'd like to say but I don't have the time. What I will say is that you need to try this by yourself and understand how some junglers work and why they are strong if they do it.
HeeroTX1 votesThe following assumes low elo (because I am low elo):
[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N5EG2W2X,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-05-09T08:13:35.077+0000)
On Graves, I have gone without ganking quite a lot, but I always make sure to have my time spent doing something good. Denying camps for the enemy jungler,
This is practically useless to laners IF the enemy jungler is ganking a lot because they're keeping pace with kills. IF the lanes are not dying then this is good for you, but you need to then replace whichever laner's strength because they WILL be losing lane due to the pressure of the 2v1 (or 3v2). The exception is if the enemy laner is weak and the jungler is babysitting them to keep them level, but then I assume this isn't a major point of complaint if that is the case. Point being, again, if you are ready to hard carry from the jungle, then fine, but if not, then you're gonna get grief.
taking Scuttle for vision,
Scuttle shouldn't take long nor preclude a gank, if anything it should help setup ganks. Also, in low elo, many people (including myself sometimes) don't pay enough attention to vision, that's not your fault nor is that your "problem" but it is a fact. I think everyone should take responsibility to ward out the ass and I know I try to do that as much as I can, but "providing vision" is a poor tradeoff for "assisting kills" for this reason.
placing vision in the enemy jungle
This has little benefit in lane phase. I mean yeah, its helpful to know where the jungler (or other members) is at all times. But I know I'm safe from enemy jungle in bot lane if I see him killing top, but that doesn't really help me or the team. Sure I can push if I'm stronger than my opponent, but the enemy top is still getting fed.
even killing the enemy jungler counterganking
EITHER of these is perfectly fine and exactly what laners are asking for so not really germane.
I understand the frustration of the laners that aren't getting help, but only get ganked themselves, especially if behind, but it's also important to realize how good my play style is. Essentially, if the enemy jungler doesn't get ahead by a lot or snowballs the lanes a lot, and my laners realize what they need to do, I get huge leads and make the game 5v4.
This is the big point and why I asked the original question. IF the enemy is not snowballing while you're off doing "counter jungling" or whatever then that's fine, but that's a HUGE if and all too often not gonna happen. Basically 8 times out of 10 the enemy jungle is gonna find the guy(s) that keep overextending and punish the hell out of them and snowball either himself or their allied laner. And then one of 2 things happens: a) I get out of lane even or with a small lead and get beat to hell by the fed enemy b) Once they've dominated whatever lane the jungle snowballed them come down to my lane and overwhelm me/us with numbers
Let me be clear, I APPRECIATE the insight into your thought process. I honestly do. Jungle actions frustrate the hell out of me and drive me insane when we lose to an active jungler while teamed with a "passive" one. But then don't come out of jungle mid/late game and spam ff and complain about your team if everyone is behind while you were focused on the areas outside of lane.
(and also, I don't jungle largely as a courtesy to my team. My pathing is atrocious, my gank timing is bad, and I'm pretty terrible (or have ZERO experience) on pretty much all jungle champs. But, as noted I flat ADMIT that I'm terrible at jungle. It's also the one reason I'm actually less likely to flame or complain about a bad jungler than a bad Support or Top)
TL;DR - If you're not gonna have PRESENCE in lane, then you need to take ownership for carrying the game because you're conceding a lane that has heavy enemy jungle presence. (For myself at least, I honestly don't care if you get a KILL or get me a kill, if you can help me get some farm by just forcing the enemy to RESPECT a gank then that's fine, I don't even need you to STAY, just keep them from either hard pushing me (if I'm losing) or camping me (if I'm winning) and then I'm happy)
Snowman Arc2 votesTo answer your last point, if the enemy jungler managed to snowball so hard, it means that they probably camped a certain lane a lot, which means that
At a certain point, after I realize I have a good lead over the enemy jungler, even if they got fed, I always look to be super aggressive. Even if my bot lane is behind, I still get in the face of the enemy jungler and 1v1 them, then proceed to safely gank a lane with the jungler dead and push towers. I steal all their camps and take tower easily.
Basically, removing the X factor from the map is key. You mostly have vision of where the laners are, so if you remove the jungler, you can go anywhere you want and have no one stop you. Once you understand at which point you are stronger, you can then go and invade the enemy very aggressively, look for solo kills etc. If you do that, it doesn't really matter how far ahead the enemy bot lane got.
Let me put it into numbers. I played Graves and I had an enemy jungler (can't remember which one) who was ganking a lot and got some kills / assists in top lane. Meanwhile, I was farming very hard and outpacing him. Eventually, while I was in his jungle, I warded his wolf camp, and I was at his frog. I saw him doing wolves while I had finished frog and when he used all his abilities to clear the camp, I went in and solo killed him. This gave me enough time to secure the blue buff that was spawning about that time etc. At that stage, we were 8 minutes in and I already had 65 cs and 1 kill, while he had something like 1/1/2 and about 35 cs.
At that stage, I was able to easily 1v1 him. This created a lot of pressure, because I placed a lot of vision in the enemy red-side jungle so my vulnerable top lane was able to see if the jungler is close by. Even though he was 0/3, nothing really came out of it, because I had pressure in the entire map and I also managed to kill the top laner in a gank. Essentially, the whole early pressure the enemy jungler applied was neutralized by a solo kill in the jungle and then correct map pressure. And all that happened because
Now, that's all higher elo theory. But it still works in low elo and it's much easier to do there, because people don't really care about farming and just want to gank, which makes my counterjungling efficiency even higher. More camps for me = more gold and XP. I have a silver smurf and my winrate at Graves and Jarvan is like 90% over 20 games and I just do this powerfarm trick all the time.
The reason why it works is that jungle farm is safe farm. Eventually, you get to outpace everyone. Even if the enemy ADC gets 2 kills early, it won't matter. Jarvan will dunk that ADC and kill them, as soon as he gets Duskblade. And the thing is that if Jarvan farms well early, then that Duskblade won't take long to get. Then, you can proceed to HARD SHUT DOWN the enemy fed member. All you need to do is find good routes.
For example, let's say you're bot side. I start red, then I usually take Raptors, even though a lot of people don't. Then I go Blue, Scuttle, Frog Wolves, back. If there's a gank - countergank option, I will definitely go. Next step is to ignore ANY LANE and run to Krugs. At that point, I know that the enemy jungler will be looking to be bot-side, so me being there is important. After Krugs, I run to his frog / wolves because most of the time, they are up. Even if they are not, I know that the enemy jungler was there, and all that time, my Raptors are back up, probably the bot side Scuttler as well.
See how I manage to stay close to my lanes to prevent counter ganks? Or how I manage my camps to have something up, while I also try to look for aggression? These are the things you need to look out to, because ganking is unreliable; if it fails, you wasted time and pressure. Instead, if you farm, you get stronger and you don't reveal yourself, meaning you have pressure.
HeeroTX1 votesAll that is great. Like I said, if you have PRESENCE then I'm fine with it (you noted that you stopped a gank in bot lane early), and as I requested you took over CARRY responsibilities in mid-game due to your farm lead. ALL of that is fine, if your work is visible then you're doing a good job. But remove that part where you stopped a gank bot-side. Or throw in a couple of ganks mid on top of the Top-side ganks and suddenly your TEAM is behind. To be clear, I'm NOT against junglers getting farm, I'm against junglers that PASSIVELY farm. After my previous post I thought a little more and I consider this a good analogy:
Functionally speaking, assuming that the enemy jungler has constant lane presence, what is the difference between a jungler that goes AFK and a jungler that never leaves the jungle?
As a laner, there is no real difference. If my jungle is level 1 at 15 mins or level 12 at 15 mins but the enemy never sees him, then there's no real benefit to all that gain. Or, to put the onus on my lane, if I'm bot and up by 100 cs, but I'm 1/0/2 and the enemy bot is 6/1/5, most of the time I'm gonna get reamed by my team for being useless. Of course, if I finish the game 15/1/8 and hard carry to victory, I'll probably get full honors and praise. Which is why I asked the original question. If you're prepared to hard carry once you "get over the hump" then that's fine, I've just had too many farm junglers that never have a presence beyond farming.
Snowman Arc2 votesWell, if your jungler only comes out of the jungle at 15 minutes, if the game is already getting snowballed, there is probably nothing he can do and is his fault. At that point, he probably won't be able to farm well because the enemy will take his camps, so it's gonna be a tough one. At that stage, I don't really know what you can do. You can only hope that the enemy team didn't get a big enough lead or so. Essentially, you were playing a 4v5, so yeah, the situation is heavily unfavorable.
XxDRAGONsAK47xX1 votesplayed Gnar top yesterday against a riven.
Got ganked by a hecarim when I was level 2, so I had no E hop yet. Of course he was level 3. His E did a quarter of my hp. River just dash stunned me and I died. I almost first blooded her :/
I'm so glad the island of top lane lasts 2 minutes.
2Charmnot2Charm1 votesYou know what's also fun? I'm spam pinging BOTH the overextending adc/support summoners cause they were just blown, AND OUR JUNGLER STILL DOESN'T GANK WITHIN 2 MINUTES. Especially when there is an infernal dragon on the map...
Pika Fox1 votesIf youre getting camped, its in the jungler, the team, and your best interest they not gank top 9/10 times.
