So when are tanks that can't 1 shot people going to be relevant again?

Trash MammaI·May 27, 2019·58 votes·16,861 views

We all know Rammus is a beast thanks to aftershock but aside from him and maybe like malphite when are you going to finally remove true damage from Conqueror so tanks can actually be relevant again?

It's really annoying trying to play and so on with over 4k hp and 250+ armor yet being melted in seconds because once Conqueror procs you go from a tank to a cannon minion.

Just change the stupid thing to bonus physical or magical damage instead so it doesn't make armor completely irrelevant.

124 Comments

Big Tiddy Fox GFMay 27, 201935 votes

Inb4 "nO tAnK mEtA, ThAt MeTa Is ShIt"

I mean, I rather playing in a tank meta than a meta where everyone one shot you for no reason at all.

Or when you got half your HP removed by one spell at lvl 1

flibitydooMay 27, 20193 votes

but bruisers should be the default top lane meta!

don't you love facing jayce, rivens, pantheons and renektons in every match?

don't you love getting firstblood cheesed at level 2 by a jax or irelia or tryndamere and then being locked out of laning for the rest of the game because walking near them will kill you?

Isn't it the best when you don't have to face a shen who bought item 3751 as their first item, completely shutting them out from going near you under your turret, and who only last hits passively in lane?

How could you possibly hate having this Rengar summoner 14 in your top lane?

ThefrostyvikingMay 28, 20193 votes

What is a bruiser though?

I´ve heard about juggernauts and divers.....and both those are currently good in the toplane?

Irelia also a diver......but jax is a skirmisher.

ΤohruMay 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Tiddy Fox GF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-27T17:26:17.828+0000)

Inb4 "nO tAnK mEtA, ThAt MeTa Is ShIt"

I mean, I rather playing in a tank meta than a meta where everyone one shot you for no reason at all.

Or when you got half your HP removed by one spell at lvl 1

We're basically in a tank meta right now anyway. Champs like Jax and Irelia are running around with 150 resistances, 300-400 AD and 5k health. We're just not in a real tank meta because the the actual tanks of the game get beat up by these super tanks throughout the entire game.

Yets4240May 28, 20195 votes

Those champions are not tanks, and they certainly aren't super tanks. Stop equivocating words and bastardizing them to try to talk about completely and thematically entirely unrelated groups of champions.

Divers, a subset of fighters/bruisers and skirmishers, a subset of slayers are the two currrently over powered and over represented classes. Both of them are melee ranged damage oriented classes that eschew defense for killing priority targets, and who all have built in mobility to be able to get in to do so.

They are the antithesis of tanks, who are defensive utility characters who provide defensive support and teamfight disruption at the cost of mobility, target access and damage. Super tanks have massive inbuilt defensive mechanics (usually tuned towards one damage type) who because of their steroids are able to absorb levels of damage not possible on other champions. None are currently viable, or have an above 50% winrate. It is a mobility driven hyper damage, and instant burst META. About the absolute furthest most it could be from a tank META which hasn't existed for over four years.

Helios SamaMay 27, 201926 votes

This idea that Conqueror is solely responsible for keeping tanks out of the meta despite the numerous nerfs to it seems so silly. Are people going to continue to ignore the fact that item 3135 , and item 3165 are part of every mage's core build and the buffs to item 3020 and item 3089 in combination with the nerf to item 3211 and how easily everyone can get 40% CDR are why tanks aren't doing well on the MR side of things. On the other side, you've got item 3036 which got buffed plus excess CDR from runes. With item 3124 getting changed to %pen. Tanks won't come back unless these items get nerfed and give back its 35 MR.

TL;DR: Resistance shred is too high and it's too easily accessible. Anti resist items are either too cheap ( item 3036 ) or are core items on a majority of a specific class ( item 3135 item 3165 item 3020 ) and should be nerfed.

Daddy AntsMay 27, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Helios Sama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-27T17:45:51.087+0000)

This idea that Conqueror is solely responsible for keeping tanks out of the meta despite the numerous nerfs to it seems so silly. Are people going to continue to ignore the fact that , and are part of every mage's core build and the buffs to and in combination with the nerf to and how easily everyone can get 40% CDR are why tanks aren't doing well on the MR side of things. On the other side, you've got which got buffed plus excess CDR from runes. With getting changed to %pen. Tanks won't come back unless these items get nerfed and give back its 35 MR.

TL;DR: Resistance shred is too high and it's too easily accessible. Anti resist items are either too cheap ( ) or are core items on a majority of a specific class ( ) and should be nerfed.

Rageblade is 15% penetration and DOES NOT STACK with Void Staff or Last whisper and it's upgrades.

If an ADC has item 3124 item 3036 then the weaker effect will deactivate (aka the rageblade pen) and they only have 35% pen not 50%.

https://i.gyazo.com/3f9b682a8139f2d2c4dafd440d490258.png

The same applies to the Magic Penetration.

If you have Rageblade and Void Staff you only get the 40% penetration from Void Staff not 55%

Helios SamaMay 27, 20197 votes

Okay, but my point still stands. Remove penetration from item 3124 and nerf item 3036 back to 25% and item 3035 back to 15%. Nerf item 3135 back to 35%, item 3020 back to 15 pen, item 3089 back to 35%.

Daddy AntsMay 27, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Helios Sama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:06:37.063+0000)

Okay, but my point still stands. Remove penetration from and nerf back to 25% and back to 15%

Lmao no.

Gut anti tank and we get tanks in 4/5 lanes.

No thanks.

Most I'd do is make Last whisper 35% Bonus armor penetration again.

More effective against armor stacking but then doesn't allow Assassin's to bust a nut all over squishies.

Helios SamaMay 27, 20194 votes

You disagree but that's what needs to happen if OP wants tanks to be relevant again.

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Helios Sama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:11:32.923+0000)

You disagree but that's what needs to happen if OP wants tanks to be relevant again.

No one wants Tanks to be relevant except a minority anyway.

Yets4240May 28, 20193 votes

How far up your own ass does your head have to be to remain this blind?

AirKingNeoMay 27, 20197 votes

If you remove pen from rageblade, there will be no hybrid pen option in the game.

Helios SamaMay 27, 20199 votes

Hybrid pen just shouldn't be a thing anyway. Most of the people who build item 3124 already have ways to deal with tanks. Yi has his E, Jax has resistances from ult, Kog has % resistance shred AND % max health shred, Varus has his W, Kaisa has her passive, Corki also has resistance shred, and kennen has his passive and resistances from ult.

In every case, hybrid champs either have innate resistance shred or can gain as much Armor/MR as the tank has to duel them while still having the damage to kill them.

SovereignMammalMay 27, 20197 votes

Not too mention, champions that build item 3124 usually get item 3153 and item 3091 . With all that on-hit dmg and the % current hp from , really doesn't need the hybrid pen.

ThefrostyvikingMay 28, 20192 votes

Man use your head, please.

If the attacker doesnt have any penetration then even with item 3153 item 3091 + item 3115 + item 3085 etc they do no damage at all.

Because the lack of penetration means all those effects do like 10 damage each adding up to 150-200 with the auto attack.....this against a target that presumably has 4000 health+shields or resistance or health boosters ontop everything else.

Its even worse than the non-hypercarry marksmen lategame like MissFortune

AirKingNeoMay 29, 20192 votes

I mean it's still better than MF late game, but as a Kayle player before the rework, lacking hybrid pen let tanks take half damage from you compared to a full build ADC was annoying.

WAZZZUP500May 28, 20195 votes

Hybrid pen is not necessary; hybrid damage is harder to build against because you need to build both mr and armor, intead of focusing one down.

ORB1TSMay 27, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Helios Sama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-27T17:45:51.087+0000)

This idea that Conqueror is solely responsible for keeping tanks out of the meta despite the numerous nerfs to it seems so silly. Are people going to continue to ignore the fact that , and are part of every mage's core build and the buffs to and in combination with the nerf to and how easily everyone can get 40% CDR are why tanks aren't doing well on the MR side of things. On the other side, you've got which got buffed plus excess CDR from runes. With getting changed to %pen. Tanks won't come back unless these items get nerfed and give back its 35 MR.

TL;DR: Resistance shred is too high and it's too easily accessible. Anti resist items are either too cheap ( ) or are core items on a majority of a specific class ( ) and should be nerfed.

Thank you someone with logic to realize it is not conq but the r%%%%%edly over powered mage items.

BronzsuoMay 31, 20191 votes

Tank is irrelevant? I play many time and every time my team didn't have a tank and enemy team do? then we got roll over without stepping out of base.

ZardoMay 27, 20194 votes

Morello is flat pen. Flat pen, like lethality, is countered by resistances, so saying it contributes to keeping tanks out of the meta just isn't true. Also, void isn't part of any mage's core build, which is generally a mana item---->(2 0f) morello/liandry's/zhonyas/banshee's. It only comes later, and even then it isn't generally built until much later if at all. Check websites such as op.gg and look into mage's build paths for more information on this.

The issue is IMO tank itemization. It's just weak overall and falls off too hard, especially if they fall behind in lane. However, i'm not an expert on this since the only tanks I tend to play are in the support role and they itemize much differently.

jg díff victimMay 27, 20194 votes

[deleted]

ZardoMay 27, 20191 votes

Void staff isn't any part of mages core build? I went to a random LCK vod and the two mages in the game (kennen and leblanc) both had void staff built (opposing team had corki mid who builds crit).

Core build is the first 3 items that generally doesn't trade out for other item. Also we're not talking about pro play since pro play always has a different meta than soloQ.

Also, if I have 150 MAGIC resist, void staff reduces that to 90. Sorc shoes and morellos then reduce that to 57.

That's not tank MR numbers.

jg díff victimMay 27, 20193 votes

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Exin0May 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Well I don't know how else to convince that almost everyone single mage builds void staff.

150 MR is not tank MR numbers? Ok with 200 you have 88 effective MR. With 250 you have 118 Mr. I just hoped into a practice tool to calculate these values, varying between builds.

Mages never truly oneshot tank but they helped with cc,like yes full build mage can hurt like truck but tanks tend to survive quite healty rotation and mage is stuck dry on CD but on other hand ADC aaing 2times per second for 800 crit is completely different beast. Also riot timing introducing conqueror buffing pene and making true damage more accesible during hight of adc centric meta with vayne on throne was quite bad and immensly helped to tanks demise. Also why play tank if you can pick juggernaut with same beefines more sustain more damage more mobilty.

jg díff victimMay 28, 20194 votes

[deleted]

Exin0May 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I agree that mages hurt tanks far less than AD carries. In fact a rotation might do 15% of tanks damage (I'm spitballing), but with 45% CDR that rotation can applied over and over again. Not to mention mages often have utility that AD Carries lack to keep themselves alive.

I think the problem is that mages are able to 100-0 an adc while also having 40% magic penetration to screw over melee toplaners.

I just sometimes wish I wouldn't die in a two second cc chain, regardless if I am playing a bruiser, mage, or adc.

So its not problem of mages per se but of CDR slaped on almost every item and of excessive AS. Even with maxed CDR mages cant drop whole combo every second (still too much cdr in game) but AS is even worse offender, its faster and is aplying effects from items so even relatively low damage build can dish out so crazy numbers because you crit, shred armor, leech life, do hp% dmg, apply slow or any other debuff few times per sec.

ThefrostyvikingMay 28, 20192 votes

You cant nerf AP pen though, void staff is barely enough as it is.

AD can stack item 3036 + item 3071 and the main conqueror users are also AD.

So from where i am sitting,,,,,when it comes to dealing with resistances the AD side is waaaaay ahead.

Helios SamaMay 28, 20191 votes

Again, OP wants tanks and tankiness to matter again in the game. Only way that happens is if item 3135 and item 3020 get reverted back to 35% and 15. Either that or gutting rune utility, so that mages have to actually itemize for 40% CDR and not get half of it for free (This is kinda why Vladimir is a bit too strong in higher elos).

Along with item 3036 and item 3035 going back to 25% and 15%.

Cleaver is in an awkward spot where it can't be changed due to the build path already being sub optimal for its abusers (namely MissFortune and Lucian + assassins) and being only average for its core users. Nerf it, and cleavers core users would need compensation buffs. Buff it, and cleaver abusers become even better with it.

Conqueror has been nerfed so much that now it's pretty clear that it isn't and never was what kept tanks out of relevance.

ThefrostyvikingMay 28, 20191 votes

5% pen and 3 flat pen wont really make a really significant difference come to think off it......i kinda doubt those could be the real core of some AP based damage problem.

I am much more inclined to instead think that the AD ability to stack armor pen and more widespread true damage is more along the lines of the issue.

Max HP damage sources are also fairly abundant.

And i mean, conqueror at 10% let a guy who did 1000 but lost 50% still deal 600, its a damage boost of 20%+healing ontop, and i know that several of its users like Riven also built armor pen to just utterly screw any tank two times over.

What conqueror does, is make it impossible for tanks to deal with the good users in lane, that all it actually does from what i see, which is why only conqueror users+ranged are played toplane.

But several tanks are good in the jungle and as supports, even seen a few midlane recently like nautilus.

Helios SamaMay 28, 20191 votes

All I'm suggesting is reverting the buffs to all those items as a starting point toward helping tanks out as opposed to more drastic changes. Mostly because they're contributing factors. Pretty sure max hp damage still gets reduced by resistances unless its Fiora or Vayne .

Conqueror's damage is still piss poor. At it's current numbers you get 1-18 AD (most users are AD so I'm leaving out the AP calc. Just goes to show that the change from just AD to adaptive was also a nerf because adaptive has worse scaling with AD.) plus 8% true damage conversion and healing. Using 1000 as a base, 8% is a whopping 80 true damage and 80 health. Conqueror only heals you for the damage the rune itself deals. 80 true damage and 80 health from 1000 damage is laughable. Conqueror isn't and never was strong enough to make tanks irrelevant on its own. Champs and items like Riven or Jax and Renekton with item 3161 are more to blame than conqueror. Also that 20% was probably from ravenous hunter or item 3812 or both. Pretty sure PTA is stronger than conqueror by a long shot.

ThefrostyvikingMay 28, 20191 votes

Its not really a question of how much it does on its own, its how great the health advantage it gives, at least for laning.

Sure 80 is preciously little of 1000.

But, 80 bonus damage+80 healing ontop 500 base damage is good right?

Its effectively a health lead of 180 gained if putting it that way, ontop the damage you did post resistances.

If comparing to PTA, it does a bit of instant AD damage on activation which is basically rendered null by armor, its the 8-12% bonus damage taken that is of interest.

But you know.....on 1000 damage done that´s just 80 to 120 extra damage, its only when you add in multiple damage sources and a greater number that it exceeds conqueror in effectiveness. But for 1v1 or with less damage conqueror is immensely superior in terms of health advantages gained.

That and the bonus damage is still just more AD/Ap damage done which is based on the attackers dmg&penetration vs resistance anyway, if pen is low or nonexistent then Conqueror is without equal.

After all, most carries cant get good pen until 3-5 items, but conqueror rolls in right from the start, which gives it a incredible advantage in terms of being present, active and effective vs the pen that only comes along much later.

Riven, Jax and renekton would be crap against tanks without conqueror, they´d simply get stonewalled by the armor until they get a black cleaver which is a poor build path overall for damage.

Items that just add normal damage are meaningless when the opponent has a fat chunk of resistance+health, you need either sustain or a means to get past their resistances to deal with them.....usually both, which is what spawned current conqueror.

Helios SamaMay 28, 20191 votes

You really don't understand how conqueror even works. Damage conversion means that a portion of the damage you deal gets converted. If you deal 500 damage, 8% of that is 40 true damage and 40 health. This isn't bonus damage. You don't get 540 damage, you get 460 physical damage and 40 true damage. Conqueror only heals for the converted amount. These are piss poor numbers compared to something like a grasp proc or comet.

Renekton does just fine against tanks with PTA. He builds spear of shojin, then he can take on multiple people easily. Without conqueror, Riven would just rush cleaver and proceed to shit on them again. Jax would get triforce and also proceed to shit on tanks again. Even more so once Jax gets spear of shojin.

ThefrostyvikingMay 29, 20191 votes

Was a bit unclear, reference point for damage before resistances was 1000, with 100 resistance for each that damage is cut to 50%.

Hence 500.

And while it was still 10% (a point there were people saying it was too weak) it still got you a health lead of effectively 200, 100 damage dealt and 100 healed.

Meanwhile PTA would just do 40-60 bonus damage post resistances, which is why i´d write that conqueror is immensely superior.

But the prerequisite for all this is actually being able to activate it very quickly, something most actually cant, or it takes too long and something else helps more like Renekton and PTA.

I mean he wants to fight fight and fight right from lvl 3 right? And his main trade combo will be like E-Q--AA-W-AA-E(back)

And everyone spanks tanks in the early first levels, they are just that weak usually.

Without conqueror what actually happens for say Riven is that unless she is ahead its not enough, the tank gets enough armor to survive her combo with good margins then they stun her and go back under tower.

Jax was absolute shit against tanks because he had no penetration items available, i know i mained him back then <.<

Shojin doesnt let you deal with tanks better, it lets you use abilities more which is more damage,,,,,but if you deal no damage due to resistances then its pointless anyway, it works now because he has conqueror to bypass any resistances and let him dominante lane phase completely.

Besides once he gets shojin its teamfight time, at which point the tanks usually win because design provided both teams are even.

Helios SamaMay 29, 20191 votes

Alright so, now I got it. The numbers you see on an ability is potential damage, aka pre-resistance calculation (except true damage). The average champion's base resistances are usually around 20%-25% reduction for both physical and magic damage. Basically, Conqueror takes the actual (post reduction) damage, not potential damage and deals its damage and healing off that. If it dealt damage and healed off potential damage, I'd agree that PTA is weaker. Not only does PTA give you a burst of damage on the 3rd hit, the target takes % increased damage from all sources and it can be activated multiple times (Also PTA scales better and comes online much faster than Conqueror in a fight).

1000 damage as a reference with 50% damage reduction still leaves you with 500 damage dealt with 50 of that 500 being true damage and healing you for 50. 50 true damage is nothing to someone with 2000+ hp and around 110-120 armor (its about this much armor to reach 50% damage reduction, iirc. feel free to correct this).

Shojin absolutely lets you deal with tanks better. In the time it takes an average tank to get 1-2 kit rotations, a shojin user can get anywhere from 2-3 rotations before shojin's active to 4-6 rotations after shojin activates. I don't think anyone can survive 4-6 combos from Renekton or Riven or Jax . Especially so when 2 out of those 3 usually have item 3071 or item 3812 built first.

ThefrostyvikingMay 30, 20191 votes

oh i was mistaken on conqueror, turns out you only heal for the pre mitigation damage but the damage is indeed counted based on post mitigation.

Well its still better than PTA for those who can use it well though, i mean even if it only does 50 damage of that 500 it still also heals 100 which adds up to 150.

PTA? 120 down to 50%, then a damage boost of 8-12%, a damage boost that still gets reduced by armor so even if you´d get a 120 bonus damage of your 1000 damage its thrown down to 560 post 100 armor.

Sure it does more damage but for a 1v1 with the above parameters then conqueror effectively gains a health lead of 150 vs PTA´s 60+12% bonus damage for following damage-.....but conqueror also gives the user 18 AD as well.

So in a more prolonged fight between two armored fellows then conqueror ends up pulling ahead by a lot as i see it.

And tanks arent supposed to 1v1, all they have to do is use 1 CC rotation on the shojin user while the tank´s team kills Shojin melee, they might not explode like a mage would if caught but they cant survive that focus either,.....well jax might.

Helios SamaMay 30, 20191 votes

Again, PTA has better early scaling and comes online much faster than Conqueror (5 hits vs 3 hits). This lets PTA get more damage done before Conqueror's damage and healing kicks in. The AD Conqueror gives is negligible, 18 AD is barely 2 longswords at level 18.

ThefrostyvikingMay 31, 20191 votes

The PTA "Early" is already over by the time the opponent has item 3047 or item 1031 .

And some fellows stack conqueror near instantly which is why its so good on them and terrible on so many others.

HP CrookshanksMay 27, 201924 votes

Armor needs serious buffs

boricCentaur1May 27, 20194 votes

Armor is fine, if it was bad bruiser would not build it. The problem is the champions need buffs

The thigh guyMay 27, 201910 votes

{quoted}

Armor is fine, if it was bad bruiser would not build it. The problem is the champions need buffs

Except armor is bad. You accept as soon as you buy an armor item is will be reduced by 49% by default in mid game.

boricCentaur1May 27, 20196 votes

That is false and you know it. We has this discussion before and it ended with you not responding to anything.

Also to get your armor reduced to 49% you have to be damage 6 times and be fighting two different champions.

Irelia BotMay 27, 201914 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1ma2E2Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-27T16:41:24.701+0000)

Armor needs serious buffs

Only if it comes with damage nerfs to tank kits.

TheSingularityMay 28, 20195 votes

The one problem with that... is that tanks need damage to function independently (so jg and top). If you remove/reduce damage (which for most of them is pretty shit), they're then forced to support only

YaraUwUMay 28, 20194 votes

Armour and Mr need a switcharoo. You get 40 MR and a mage cant do shit to you till they buy tank killing items. You build armour and no one gives a shit about it and will still do a fuck load of damage to you.

jg díff victimMay 27, 201913 votes

Do people still blame conqueror for the lack of tanks being played? Do people even play this game?

its champions like Vayne Kaisa MasterYi and items like item 3089 item 3135 item 1416 item 3124 item 3153 item 3036 that invalidate tanks. Not 8% true damage.

Just go tp u.gg/lol/tier-list and look at the 30 highest winrates (granted there are champion repeats for different positions). NOT a single champion in the top 30 runs conqueror. None of the top 5 champions by winrate in the top lane go conqueror.

ZardoMay 27, 20191 votes

Just go tp u.gg/lol/tier-list and look at the 30 highest winrates

Yes, but all of these high winrate go along with a low pickrate. I mean sure, volibear isn't a conqueror abuser, but you'd be flat out wrong if you're saying that he defines the meta. Low pickrate high winrate champs also suffer the issue from having exclusively onetricks playing them, inflating their winrate.

Look at playrate first, winrate second to see who defines meta. And as it turns out, even on u.gg, the highest picked and highest winrate champions are conqueror users. Hell, I don't even think that conqueror is much of an issue. However, you can't just act like you can look at winrate in a vacuum, or you'll wind up thinking volibear is a broken top laner.

jg díff victimMay 27, 20195 votes

[deleted]

ZardoMay 27, 20192 votes

There's one major thing you fail to mention. All those top laners? Those are pretty much the only top laners being picked. There's no competition. After the top 6 conqueror users, the next champion is picked 2/3 the amount of the #6 champion, and he's the first who doesn't use conqueror. Hell, beyond him are more conqueror users. What about mid? Mid has mages assassins and bruisers(most of the bruisers take conqueror) in the top 5 most played champions, and the trend continues downward throughout the list. Conqueror also isn't relevant mid, since mid is a burst oriented lane and the only champs who take it are the ones who can stack it really quickly so they can burst down their opponent.

Jungle is a mess right now due to the changes, strength has nothing to do with what runes they can take but what they can offer to the team and how they can clear(with the exception being the walking DH bot Karthus )

In tank metas, tanks appear most often toplane. Tanks don't appear mid unless there's something really wonky going on(banner), and appear randomly support depending on the strength of adcs and other supports. The main role that conqueror would impact would be top, since top has the greatest room for lengthy trades, of which conqueror impacts greatly. And since top hosts the tankiest tanks(support tanks run on both a lower gold + xp income and get less tanky items, junglers run on a lower gold and xp income), them not being able to do much top impacts the meta greatly.