Kog'Maw Dropped to a 44% Winrate in 6.5

LaughingStapler·Mar 12, 2016·27 votes·10,977 views

Champion.gg - Kog'Maw ADC Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

He now has the lowest winrate of any ADC and his AP Mid isn't any better either. Yes, he was OP in 6.3 and strong in 6.4 but the truth is that he was overnerfed in 6.5. I know people still have nightmares about him but he needs help. Even Kog'Maw players with 50+ games on him only have have a 45% winrate.

Personally, I just want the versatile and interesting champion Kog'Maw was pre-rework. He used to work Mid and ADC just fine without being overbearing. It seems like Riot's now having a lot of trouble putting him in a state that's not either too strong or too weak. Although, I also think people weren't familiar with Kog in 6.3 and have also gotten better at handling him. They are starting to try to bait W out with fake engages before actually going in.

60 Comments

RiotRiot SotereMar 12, 201641 votes

It's largely due to a bug that's being fixed.

GrashnimMar 12, 20164 votes

A magical bug that's not listed unless you forum hunt?

AbyssphereMar 12, 201613 votes

{quoted}

A magical bug that's not listed unless you forum hunt?

Where do you expect them to list the bug? It's already in the patch notes.

GrashnimMar 12, 20161 votes

Oh is it? Yeah, I don't really go through all the patch notes to hear how the game is currently fucked. Granted, if it's a bug, it should result in either the removal of the champion or listing where they disable champions.

I mean, it's one thing to be "patching" something. It's another thing to release a bug.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 12, 201633 votes

You aren't reading the things that tell you every change in the game, but think Riot is at fault for not listing something that is going to be removed because it was an error?

You're one of those people that post a thread in the Bugs board wondering why something isn't working when it was removed from a champion a month ago

IcyPepperMar 12, 201620 votes

I bet he thinks Thresh with a relic shield has a bug or something.

AbyssphereMar 12, 201613 votes

{quoted}

Oh is it? Yeah, I don't really go through all the patch notes to hear how the game is currently fucked. Granted, if it's a bug, it should result in either the removal of the champion or listing where they disable champions.

I mean, it's one thing to be "patching" something. It's another thing to release a bug.

They disabled Kog once the bug was noticed.

ArakadiaMar 13, 20162 votes

Do you know what the bug is? Im too lazy to look at patch notes...

AbyssphereMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you know what the bug is? Im too lazy to look at patch notes...

When his W was active his on-hit effect damage was being significantly reduced, similar to how the AD ratio on his auto attacks is reduced during his W.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When his W was active his on-hit effect damage was being significantly reduced, similar to how the AD ratio on his auto attacks is reduced during his W.

Note that the tooltip for Bio-arcane barrage implies this is how it's supposed to work even though we all know differently.

AnnoxisMar 13, 20161 votes

No, the tooltip is cleary stating that only AD must be reduced.

QuephaMar 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No, the tooltip is cleary stating that only AD must be reduced.

The tooltip in-game states "attacks deal 55% damage"

Not sure if I have the dummy tooltip settings on or not, but that's obviously a very different meaning from "Attack damage is reduced to 55%" on a champion like Kog'Maw.

RoodToobMar 14, 20162 votes

attacks are reduced, his AD is not, on hit effects do not count as an attack, but an on hit, and are therefore not reduced, and his ad isn't reduced because his r has ad scaling

QuephaMar 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

attacks are reduced, his AD is not, on hit effects do not count as an attack, but an on hit, and are therefore not reduced, and his ad isn't reduced because his r has ad scaling

on hit effects state "auto attacks deal X damage"

that implies the damage is part of the attack, and his W makes it sound like any damage from an attack is reduced.

RoodToobMar 14, 20162 votes

On attack and On hit are two different things, On hit is xin's heal, on attack is his crit. Also On hit effects state "auto attacks deal X damage On hit Which then implies the damage is in fact not part of the attack, which is why an item such as sated devourer can exist

DairdrekMar 12, 20162 votes

If you don't read what you complain about them you have no leg stand on complaining about them

MhihnjMar 13, 20161 votes

If he is aurelion sol main? You know, floating in the clouds

QuephaMar 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsUhZW7K,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-12T18:40:30.164+0000)

It's largely due to a bug that's being fixed.

Do you know if it was intended for Kog'maw's W to be dealing 5 more damage than listed in the patch notes?

LoLKiruMar 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you know if it was intended for Kog'maw's W to be dealing 5 more damage than listed in the patch notes?

If I recall that was stated to be a patch notes oversight, since it was actually raised by the 5 damage when it was on the PBE. it was ORIGINLLY 5/10/15/20/25/30

Now its 10~35

Br4ndonMar 12, 20162 votes

What is the bug?

Clockwork MouseMar 13, 20161 votes

Elise I think, her ganks are too much.

LaughingStaplerMar 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsUhZW7K,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-12T18:40:30.164+0000)

It's largely due to a bug that's being fixed.

Thanks for your answer. I'm actually confused about the flat W damage. In game, it says that it goes up to 30 and that seems to be how it behaves too when I tested it. However, the patch notes go to 25 only. What is the intended number?

NekusenMar 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsUhZW7K,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-12T18:40:30.164+0000)

It's largely due to a bug that's being fixed.

whats the bug about ?

Sypher The PoroMar 12, 201614 votes

Fixed yesterday.

Kog'Maw WHY AREN'T THEY MELTING - Fixed a bug that caused on-hit effects to deal significantly reduced damage while W - Bio-Arcane Barrage was active"

DairdrekMar 12, 20162 votes

Damn. They could've left it alone

LoLKiruMar 12, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Damn. They could've left it alone

Why leave it alone? If its a bug it should be fixed, thats true of anything in the game.

DairdrekMar 13, 20163 votes

It was a joke because it's an annoying move. I didn't mean it seriously. I do agree with you

RaoulMar 12, 20166 votes

When a champion that used to be broken OP is nerfed into a more balanced state, thy always drop really low, cause people are way too used to just steamroll with them, and suddendly this doesnt work any more.

PennsMar 12, 20162 votes

Tahm dropped to a 44-45% win rate last patch as well and didnt even reach 48 for 4 patches now

And it wasnt "due to a bug"

LaughingStaplerMar 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Tahm dropped to a 44-45% win rate last patch as well and didnt even reach 48 for 4 patches now

And it wasnt "due to a bug"

c:

Tahm was overnerfed but is shockingly still banned at times. Losing 2% HP on his R also made jungle a lot worse than before. I think some champions have "nerf intertia" and seem to be kicked while they're down out of fear. Viktor is a recent example of this and now has the worst mid lane winrate. He wasn't OP and he got nerfed despite PBE threads about it being totally unnecessary. However, this is all for another discussion!

Considering the Kog bug, we'll need more time to see his performance.

JustSirMar 12, 20161 votes

I dont think he was fine in 6.4. If you let him get to late game, then he was almost unstopabale. But pre-lvl 11 and before hurricane rageblade, he was very easy to catch out if your team comp wasnt made to "Protect the Kog"

PrometheSMar 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I dont think he was fine in 6.4. If you let him get to late game, then he was almost unstopabale. But pre-lvl 11 and before hurricane rageblade, he was very easy to catch out if your team comp wasnt made to "Protect the Kog"

I've rarely struggled vs Kog'Maw late game unless he was fed and our team was behind. My biggest problem with him was that he got fed early and was strong mid game. On 5-6 items, he tended to be unable to penetrate the flanking Malphite/Naut etc. diving him if they had equal items. He'd take like 1/2 their health in the best scenario but he'd have no more W and die easily after. This is even in comps. that were heavy on peel. I haven't tried baiting W but that sounds like a good idea.

I think the biggest mistake people make vs him is diving head first instead of trying to flank. Since Kog gets Runaan's, he should be treated like a Twitch. He needs to be attacked from multiple angles so he can't just attack 3 people at the same time. The second big mistake is that they get scared of his damage instead of understanding his weaknesses. If he JUST chunked your Alistar to 1/2 it probably means his W is over and you SHOULD GO IN instead of or running from him scared after that massive damage.

LaughingStaplerMar 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I dont think he was fine in 6.4. If you let him get to late game, then he was almost unstopabale. But pre-lvl 11 and before hurricane rageblade, he was very easy to catch out if your team comp wasnt made to "Protect the Kog"

I haven't played Kog much since the rework because he was my favorite champion as a mid laner and it doesn't seem to work anymore (very sad about that). However, I will say that he is supposed to be strong late game so I don't see that as him "not being fine". Are we going to complain about late game Vayne too?

Honestly though, I've followed the statistics for Kog throughout the game and his lowest winrate tended to be late game post rework. Even in 6.4 I remember his late game being ~50% (contrast with Vayne who was rocking nearly 57% by then). The issue is mainly that he needs the perfect fight and timing windows to fully utilize his kit late game. If his W's not up since he had to kite back or if they simply don't clump etc., he loses so much of his influence. The ideal scenario is amazing but it doesn't happen consistently enough and one catch on Kog will end the game.

LadyRenlyMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I haven't played Kog much since the rework because he was my favorite champion as a mid laner and it doesn't seem to work anymore (very sad about that). However, I will say that he is supposed to be strong late game so I don't see that as him "not being fine". Are we going to complain about late game Vayne too?

Honestly though, I've followed the statistics for Kog throughout the game and his lowest winrate tended to be late game post rework. Even in 6.4 I remember his late game being ~50% (contrast with Vayne who was rocking nearly 57% by then). The issue is mainly that he needs the perfect fight and timing windows to fully utilize his kit late game. If his W's not up since he had to kite back or if they simply don't clump etc., he loses so much of his influence. The ideal scenario is amazing but it doesn't happen consistently enough and one catch on Kog will end the game.

I have to agree. Even if you are ahead, you can't really mindlessly 1v5 unless they have like, 0 cc. Even when insanely fed, a behind team composition composing of Pantheon, Ahri, Nautilus and Quinn will invalidate your existence unless you play it super smart

WadeWilson1337Mar 12, 20161 votes

To be fair, Kogmaw had 40% winrates after their reworks in the preseason. When you are the epitome of a glass cannon, you really shouldnt have consistently high winrates as you need a team comp formed around you. Frankly, if Kogmaw ever has a positive winrate, its a good indication he is too strong.

LaughingStaplerMar 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Kogmaw and Twitch had 40% winrates after their reworks in the preseason. When you are the epitome of a glass cannon, you really shouldnt have consistently high winrates as you need a team comp formed around you. Frankly, if Kogmaw ever has a positive winrate, its a good indication he is too strong.

Outside of 6.3+, Kog's pick-rate has been quite low so a high winrate wouldn't necessarily mean there are balance problems.

Regarding Kog's winrate in the preseason, it was very low because he had his AS nerfed in addition to a lot of other net negative changes in the rework (especially for Mid). He was hotfixed to be in a more workable state so it's not a matter of players getting used to him. It's simply numbers changes which boosted his winrate and he was still performing poorly after them. Twitch on the other hand was never at 40% during preseason.

WadeWilson1337Mar 12, 20161 votes

Kogmaw had a 39.6% winrate in one of the first few patches, 5.22 i believe.

LaughingStaplerMar 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Twitch had a 39.6% winrate in one of the first few patches, 5.22 i believe.

He didn't.

WadeWilson1337Mar 13, 20161 votes

Just checked, it was Kogmaw with that whoppin 39.6% winrate. MB. But then again this post is about Kogmaw, so yay for relevance.

https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/3trdw7/adc_winrate_changes_in_522/

Baron PerenoldeMar 12, 20161 votes

It's been three days since the patch. Let's give it a few more before claiming Koggles needs help. I'm sure his win rate is being killed by people still trying to play him the same as 6.3 and 6.4 because they don't read patch notes.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Perenolde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsUhZW7K,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-03-12T23:29:01.071+0000)

It's been three days since the patch. Let's give it a few more before claiming Koggles needs help. I'm sure his win rate is being killed by people still trying to play him the same as 6.3 and 6.4 because they don't read patch notes.

His winrate was killed because his damage was bugged before they took him down, and he didn't come back up until right before champion.gg finished taking their sample.

FatTacoMar 13, 20161 votes

RAGEBLADE item 3124 Get rid of this item or kneecap it and then balance Kog Maw with the item no longer benefiting his kit and you have yourself a Kog Maw that can sit at a 48 - 50% winrate with the right tweaks. Rageblade is literally one of the biggest factors for hybrids and on-hit auto attackers making them so OP and hard to balance, just get the item away from them and think of a new way to solve those niches that would like something that helps Hybrid champions.

Meep ManMar 13, 20161 votes

He also had a game breaking bug

ShonjlMar 13, 20161 votes

He needs another rework. As he is right now, he is either broken OP like he was, or balls ass useless.

People won't ever see him as being balanced since if he did get a 50% rating, people would still see him as OP or UP because GASP, he plays different than other ADCs. While most other are moving around a lot, Kog WANTS to be able to stand still and not move. When moving around you have a lot more factors being played in, not moving its literally did X die or did Kog die?

LaughingStaplerMar 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He needs another rework. As he is right now, he is either broken OP like he was, or balls ass useless.

People won't ever see him as being balanced since if he did get a 50% rating, people would still see him as OP or UP because GASP, he plays different than other ADCs. While most other are moving around a lot, Kog WANTS to be able to stand still and not move. When moving around you have a lot more factors being played in, not moving its literally did X die or did Kog die?

Lol a new rework could just be him pre-rework and he'd be fine.

Best Kog NAMar 13, 20161 votes

Is the KogMaw meta finally going to die? I want to play him in ranked without him getting banned every single game ._.

StephenizgodMar 13, 20161 votes

Pretty sure it is because of a bug causing him to do less damage while his W is active or something. When he has his items and is at around 30+ minutes, he is an absolute terror. I saw him drop an Alistar in about 2-3 seconds, Alistar was in his ult and we were winning that game very hard until he got strong enough to melt us in a matter of seconds... I've never been more scared of a champion than I have of Kog'maw, even though he was 0/7 with about 60 less CS than everyone, he could still kill 3+ of us before we could kill him. That terror is the reason I still ban him.

ZulzarMar 13, 20161 votes

According to op.gg his winrate is at 53% again after the bugfix so the 44% was really only because of the bug.

NekusenMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

According to op.gg his winrate is at 53% again after the bugfix so the 44% was really only because of the bug.

each site has their own winrates, they mean nothing.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

each site has their own winrates, they mean nothing.

lolking also has him back up to about a 54% winrate. champion.gg would probably have him back as strong as he was last patch if they hadn't drawn most of their sample during when he was bugged.