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So RIOT what is your plan to stop the 3-5 man gank bot and get the tower + FTG at 6-7 minutes in?

JavelinJoe··75 votes·4,410 views

Seriously, this is one of the more annoying additions to season 7. Bot tower is significantly weaker than the others, so poking down the tower before that large gank is easy and the damage done can be pretty significant too. So then the first team to gank and either cluster fuck the enemy bot lane or push them off of the tower will 100% always get that tower before anyone can even make it there to defend it.

This somewhat goes with one of the "weaknesses" in the ADC role too. Losing bot tower that early means that you cant really push out too far of your just a free kill from another gank. The ADC with the extra gold now has a large advantage over you, especially if they got FBG at the exact same time. Most ADCs cant even safely farm under tower with that kind of a gold difference pre 10 minutes (even pre level 6 sometimes). It is too great of a snowball catalyst for the bot lane who gets that FTG. And since there are very little alternative builds for ADCs, they can't just go more defensive to survive. They have to continue their expensive AF, high damage build or risk never being able to do anything in trades/group fights due to their lack of high damage items and/or core items.

I would suggest that FTG is not earned until 10 minutes in. If you have taken a tower prior to 10 minutes in, then no FTG is earned that game for either side.

71 Comments

invisiblecat16 votes

Their plans for it is to keep it as "A risk on staying bot lane longer in order to take the first tower, or backing off to save lives" How about either buff towers, or remove the first tower blood Or maybe both

JavelinJoe1 votes

A risk on staying bot lane longer in order to take the first tower, or backing off to save lives

So basically a big fuck you to the bot lane duo who always will be there pre 10 minutes? That does not seem right if I am understanding you correctly.

vOmvbrawfU4 votes

Why does it need to stop?

Divine Winds30 votes

Because FB turret pretty much decides who wins or lose nowadays.

And turrets are like 1 ply toilet paper, you try to wipe and you feel your finger.

vOmvbrawfU14 votes

Getting first tower has always had about the same winrate. It's only up like 3% since they started first tower blood. Not exactly game changing.

IcyPepper15 votes

You know, after reading what people have said and having seen the data, I think I know what the problem is.

First tower doesn't change the odds of winning excessively, but it changes people's behaviors quite a bit and encourages frustrating game patterns. As a game company, Riot should probably address this. It wouldn't be the first time they addressed something for game health rather than mere balance, like Kalista/Azir/assassins and etc etc.

Honestly, the way I see it and this might be a controversial opinion because it's somewhat radical, I think tower gold in general should just be removed entirely. Gold income is important for securing leads and coming back, it's integral to the game itself, but towers should be treated as a reward in itself. Not every objective needs to have gold to incentive(?) players, winning the game should be incentive enough. If it were up to me, and if Riot isn't going to decrease damage, they should really turn turrets into a dangerous threat without a gold reward. Make having your towers up a huge defensive advantage, while losing them a consequence.

50000000000000001 votes

tbh even if towers gave no gold, they'd be good objectives to take just from the map pressure it allows for. Also being necessary to remove the invulnerability from the nexus, but still.

Whut Thuh 1 votes

but wouldnt be worth splitting down because the risk of losing the fight is overwhelmingly higher than what you could gain from splitting now, espeicailly if what someone said before is true (which is think it is) if everyone is basically teamfighting up and down midlane and really only heads to other lanes to clear waves if they are pushing a tower

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Neat perspective, though it might be necessary to introduce some other incentive for teams to actually take all the towers lategame and not just ARAM forever. There's often this one tower that just gets ignored for a while because the top laners grouped before it came down or something. Maybe the inners get a defensive buff if any of the outers are still up, and so on for the inhib turrets.

vOmvbrawfU1 votes

If you remove gold from towers, in my opinion, the game just gets FURTHER away from being a strategy based game and more of a team deathmatch game. Since you don't get gold for objectives, it would be more beneficial just to get kills. They already removed gold from drago.

Whut Thuh 1 votes

its up even less.. its only up 1.4 percent

RedCyclone3 votes

Also it feels like crap to be targeted by a coordinated team when your jungle/mid/top refuse to look botlane, then proceed to complain about how botlane fukt their game up

It's a pretty disgusting tactic and there is very little chance of you coming back from being 4 man dived botlane, the enemy has so much power on you after they crush your turret and collect drake

AirKingNeo1 votes

No it doesn't a 1-2% higher chance to win than pre-FTB or getting an objective isn't broken.

Divine Winds3 votes

27 million people play every day. 1 game is 10 people 27 mill/10 = 2.7 million games 2.7 million games played daily. If 1% more wins: 27000, 2% = 54000, 1.5% = 40500 That is a massive number of games. So yes, if that many games are being won daily assuming everyone only plays one game (which is unlikely), then it is unbalanced. If a champion has over 51% winrate, they're already looked at for nerfs.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Except balanced champions are usually within 47-53%. Otherwise when Kayle getting nerfed xd?

Divine Winds2 votes

If they have a high playrate, then yes, its time for a nerf. Which is why lee sin was nerfed. Kayle is different. Barely anyone plays her, so her winrate is always higher, so the amount of games she affects with that win rate is lower, so she isn't put in for nerfs.

Dat Kat1 votes

What does FB mean? First Blood?

Divine Winds1 votes

ya

JavelinJoe3 votes

It happens every game, and while not 100% broken, it makes one side have a significant advantage. Which side gets FTG has a 70%+ win rate according to this. First dragon does not even break 70%, and that is either a permanent buff to movement speed or damage, extra objective damage, or a passive % regen. I would think FTG should be closer to FBG and defiantly less than first dragon since it is a one time thing. First dragon buffs you for the remainder of the game. Sure, gold "technically" lasts for the rest of the game too. But shouldn't a dragon buff hold more value than a tower? And while I'm at it, the team who gets that tower can usually just waltz over and get first dragon too with little possibility for a contest.

vOmvbrawfU3 votes

Before FTG was introduced, FT win rate was only about 3% lower.

The issue isn't getting FTG. The issue is that teams are completely 1 sided and the team that usually gets first tower is the team that just flat out has the better players on it...hence why they're getting first tower in the first place.

Divine Winds3 votes

Do you understand how much 3% really is? when 27 million people play daily?

Anags5 votes

3% is always 3%. That's how percentages work.

vOmvbrawfU1 votes

I understand exactly how much 3% really is. It's 3%.

Lùmen4 votes

Or just make the turret shield last longer and make it overall stronger.. Also buff the turret to prevent counterplay-free 5 men dives

Jorencice1 votes

What? If the ENTIRE team. Fights 2 people they shoukd win 100% of the time...

Lùmen3 votes

You are right but there should be casualties when diving two people who are relatively healthy ten minutes into the game. One person can simply draw the aggro and stand in the max range while absorbing 4 shots so the rest of his team can get the job done. That is not healthy game pattern, not one bit.

edit : 4 men dives work perfectly well, 5 is just overkill tbh.

JuhnChan4 votes

Increase First Tower Gold to 500 in order to incentivize counter-5-man-ganking. duh.

Proxy3453 votes

Maybe its time to pull out the big guns by making towers shoot up to 5 champs at the same time lol Except for the nexus and inhibitor towers.

Wyrmblade3 votes

The problem is that with how EXP works the fucking support and ADC are level 4-5 when everyone else in the game is six, so it's really easy for everyone else to come and shit on them for free kills, free turrets and free dragons.

I think the best solution would be to reduce the amount of EXP the support and ADC lose by being paired, this could also open up for more variety in bot lane because it would make scaling mages with consistent damage more viable since they would be able to get spell levels.

Lùmen1 votes

EXP sharing is a brutal bitch. This is why Morde smashed through 1-2 entire season (somehting like that) because he ignored EXP share and got ahead easily thanks to not being a diveable champIon, which resulted in him always getting the drake and winning 2v3-3v3's.

DragonShea2 votes

buff towers and remove FTG

Surr20plz2 votes

keep ftg

buff towers

Bultz2 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, this is one of the more annoying additions to season 7. Bot tower is significantly weaker than the others, so poking down the tower before that large gank is easy and the damage done can be pretty significant too. So then the first team to gank and either cluster fuck the enemy bot lane or push them off of the tower will 100% always get that tower before anyone can even make it there to defend it.

This somewhat goes with one of the "weaknesses" in the ADC role too. Losing bot tower that early means that you cant really push out too far of your just a free kill from another gank. The ADC with the extra gold now has a large advantage over you, especially if they got FBG at the exact same time. Most ADCs cant even safely farm under tower with that kind of a gold difference pre 10 minutes (even pre level 6 sometimes). It is too great of a snowball catalyst for the bot lane who gets that FTG. And since there are very little alternative builds for ADCs, they can't just go more defensive to survive. They have to continue their expensive AF, high damage build or risk never being able to do anything in trades/group fights due to their lack of high damage items and/or core items.

I would suggest that FTG is not earned until 10 minutes in. If you have taken a tower prior to 10 minutes in, then no FTG is earned that game for either side.

its called pinging and playing well. Lol why in the fuck would riot take strategy out of the game so you don't get owned? You have your team they can come bot lane to help, ping mia, gank you. lolz true story.

JavelinJoe3 votes

Lol why in the fuck would riot take strategy out of the game

Well FTG and the weaker bot tower was 100% in response to the lane swap/trade tower meta that the LCS had adopted a while back. So the have done it before. It solved that problem but it created this one.

Liofa2 votes

Their plan is to do what they've always done when one of their policies that they worked really really hard on and knows totally makes the game better is hated by everyone, cover their ears and go LALALALALALACAN'THEARYOULALALALALALALALALAKEYSTONESAREGREATLALALALALALALALA

DunkinNoobs1 votes

What makes you think Riot finds it to be a problem? It's encouraging early game teamwork and proactive play; 2 things Riot particularly likes.

JavelinJoe3 votes

Well for 1, because of teams of premades. Do you know how hard it is to have 5 solo players to agree to gank bot all at the same time at a specific time? It is not easy. And for another reason, FTG benefits every member on a team, even if they were not helping to take that tower. So by doing essentially nothing, they are given a decent amount of gold pre 10 minutes in what could have been an even laning phase where neither side was notably ahead. Or if one side had the power, then they now would have even more for free, or their opponent would suddenly have the power to oppose/overpower them.

Gelmous1 votes

what does FTG mean?

Ben Sharpio2 votes

first turret gold

Gregor Gysi1 votes

This does not make sense. At 6-7 minutes every outer turret is equally strong and it's nearly impossible to do much damage to turrets until 5 minutes into the game - assuming that the enemy botlane is present.

Also, if the enemy team manages to pull off a 5 man botlane gank in soloQ then they deserve that turret. Especially seeing how you apparantly failed to see 2 man walking bot and didn't get the counter TP.

JavelinJoe1 votes

it's nearly impossible to do much damage to turrets until 5 minutes into the game

Nope, very easy actually, push lane and chip away. Bot tower has no defense buff like the others do so any damage takes a good bit of health off of it.

counter TP

LOL, a counter TP in SoloQ? Really? Unless they were Shen or in my premade, this never has happened. I may get an occasional GP ult, but he'll be damned if he uses his TP for anything besides returning to the top lane after a quick back.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

So your opponents manage to pull off a 5 man botlane gank and your team doesn't even manage to get a TP - and you expect Riot to make it so that you don't get punished? Just to be clear.

Lùmen1 votes

Counter TP's in soloQ are EXTREMELY rare and may only happen so often in high-diamond (probably not even there, just master+)

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Yeah, but 5 people bot ganks happen in every elo all the time?

RoyalMachine1 votes

They need to increase all tower defenses and keep the bot lane tower weaker than the others. With mountain drake and ap auto attacks tower falls way too fast, and don't even talk about ziggs.

Lùmen1 votes

Passive deals increased damage to turrets and he blows shit up like a terrorist. #HEALTYGAMEPATTERN

Tails90161 votes

Wtf, is what ranked is like?. In blind, a good team can hold until 15 minutes before it comes down, and that's usually at the cost of their teams other two turrets.

Lùmen2 votes

Well we are clearly discussing ranked games where people abuse the weakness of botlaners and turrets so no matter how good and how much of a mechanical beast you and your teammates can be, you'll still get dove and you will still lose that first turret.

Sraeg20131 votes

Isn't a 3-man gank basically just jungler ganking bot?

Why should they stop it?

ThaDoormen1 votes

I think you need to consider correlation as opposed to causation. A team coordinated enough to send multiple people bot for a dive and first tower blood are more likely to win games because it showcases their ability to coordinate better than the team that doesn't respond directly. Prior to FTB, getting the first turret was less valuable; as a result, even more coordinated teams weren't necessarily prioritizing it over other objectives. Now, though, piling bot gives both that and also leaves a good opportunity to take dragon on the backside of it. It's one of the more obvious plays a team can make now, and more macro-minded players realize that and execute. It might be less that getting FTB is op and more that a team capable of coordinating well enough to get it has an inherent advantage over a team who can't.

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