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Can we stop the "only one class matters" metas?

PhantomGG··28 votes·1,507 views

The assassin meta, the dreaded tank meta, the support meta, the marksman meta, the mage meta, each and every patch it feels like only one class matters and im starting to feel like riot does it on purpose to "keep things interesting". The other day in a topic I made a joke that went along the lines of.

-uses his bernie voice-

This is what riot wants, they want to divide us, we should stand together, Mages and assassins need to stand together, supports and marksman, tanks and junglers, we must all be one and unified and demand a Equal balanced game, and not these metas where only one class matters.

In reply to a topic saying we need to nerf AD items. But in truth I wasn't fully joking, I don't think we need to nerf them, I think AP items could simply use some love. I don't get why we have to keep having these metas where it feels like only one class matters. Why can't we simply have a balanced patch where you can play any class, and you aren't trolling your team for picking it. I want a patch where, assassins, mages, marksman, tanks, supports all feel like they are on equal footing.

Is that to much to ask for?

50 Comments

hhaavviikk18 votes

more like: assassin + ADC meta support + ADC meta tank + ADC meta AP + ADC meta

Celestial Lion122 votes

adcs were useless in season 5 except for late game hypercarries they were garbage most of season 6 after the initial class rework fiasco being relegated to utility like ashe or jhin. ADC has recently risen up to god tier becasue of assasin and burst mage nerfs as well as support buffs.

hhaavviikk9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Lion12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MpIrfcdw,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-09-11T16:58:34.944+0000)

adcs were useless in season 5 except for late game hypercarries they were garbage most of season 6 after the initial class rework fiasco being relegated to utility like ashe or jhin. ADC has recently risen up to god tier becasue of assasin and burst mage nerfs as well as support buffs.

ADC's have always been mandatory though, I wouldn't exactly call that useless

top has had varying champions, tanks, juggernauts, mages, ADC's same with mid and jungle support too, you got mages going as support, even tanks and adc's then you got ADC's and just ADC's, there was like what 2/3 weeks of ziggs and then back to adc's non stop

AleksaTeemo3 votes

No lmao.Last adc meta was back in season 2.Season 3 was assasin meta,season 4 mage meta season 5 top lane carry meta(fiora riven etc) and season 6 tank meta.Adcs were basicaly shit from season 6-untill now.

Ralanr4 votes

And yet they were always in bot.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Umm?What?Lucian,ezreal,tristana(ap),etc were all played outside of bot.

Ralanr1 votes

Not what I mean.

ADCs do not have a competitor class for their role in bot lane unlike top, jungle, mid, or support. This used to be balanced (which I don't agree is good balance) by them being unable to function solo most of the time.

Riot has allowed them better solo lane experiences, but they still dominate the bot lane position.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Support is 70% of the laning phase.It does not matter what adc does if his support is a weak laner.Unless that guy is plat lvl playing in bronze.

Ralanr1 votes

And yet rarely can a melee bot lane carry work.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Irrelevant.You need ranged person for adc position to work.Thats because you need constant DPS in teamfights and somebody who can siege from a far.

Ralanr1 votes

Hence why you'll basically always get a marksman.

But this doesn't hold true for other roles. They are more versatile.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Just because one class is the most important does not mean its the strongest.Thats like saying support is so hard because it has massive impact in the game.

Ralanr2 votes

I am not arguing that they are the strongest. I am arguing that their role is too restrictive and it doesn't allow diversity thus limiting team comp strategies.

I do not think it is overall healthy for marksmen to be the only class that functions in bot. It skews balance imo with other classes and punishes ADCs more because of how much their weaknesses end up needing compensation. Then that compensation allows them to start becoming more prominent in other lanes and avoid worry for certain comps.

We have marksmen junglers before we have more viable options for a non marksman bot. This means that Riot is supporting multiple marksman comps but barely supporting no marksmen comps.

Frankly, it's getting a little tiresome. Marksmen are always going to be bot, but they keep finding ways outside of that role while no one can find ways in their role.

They are especially taking away the role of the "carry" from other champions designed to be carries. Why play a carry top laner when you can play a frontline champion to better protect the adc? It's incredibly prominent now in this hypercarry meta.

The ADC shouldn't be the most important role anyway. Ideally all roles should be equal in importance, but that's another discussion.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Thats true,this game has become how good can you peel for your adc or how much can you snowball of your lane to early shut down adc.If you dont do either of those you lose the game hard..

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Thats true,this game has become how good can you peel for your adc or how much can you snowball of your lane to early shut down adc.If you dont do either of those you lose the game hard..

And it isn't helped if your ADC is bad at positioning.

Too much is put into the ADC.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

And yet they were always in bot.

I really hate this as an argument. That ADC's are pretty much required bot sides (With the exception of the occasional Mord or Ziggs) there for, we have always been in an ADC meta.

Considering that the ADC is always paired with a gold starved support, yet no one talks about the gold starved support meta. That might be because we have at least 3 different varieties of supports, (Enchanters, wardens, catchers) but it still doesn't change their over all laning patterns, or the fact that they must be warder and chief.

{quoted}

Not what I mean.

ADCs do not have a competitor class for their role in bot lane unlike top, jungle, mid, or support. This used to be balanced (which I don't agree is good balance) by them being unable to function solo most of the time.

Riot has allowed them better solo lane experiences, but they still dominate the bot lane position.

If this is more reference to the likes of Lucian and Corki, those champs are slightly more on the side of caster, meaning they gain benefit from level more than most ADC's, Allowing them to function well in the solo lane. And since Corki has his package, he even has a mid laners ability to roam.

That said, I don't think that's actually a balancing problem. ADC's who can solo lane are generally outliers in the pack. And for those said outliers, they're going to be balanced around their best position, and no longer bot laners.

Really, the only real concern for this would be if AD DPS just goes runnaway. But the answer to that should be buffing the levers against said DPS. (Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Thormail)

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

What? Did you guys just start in s7 and don't know whatr you are talking about? Or are you straight up trolling? Graves top, corki mid, kindred jungle and another ADC bot were META for half of s6. Then armorpen ADCs were dominating the meta up until s7 when crit ADCs got buffed. ADCs have been stronger in the last two seasons then every other season together.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Um you havent played in season 2 clearly.Adcs were so strong it wasnt even funny.And please,armor pen adc couldnt do jack shit in season 6 to full tanks(unless it 40 min in the game) where tanks can still deal huge amount of dmg.At the start of the season 7 up till midish season 7,adcs were pure shit.

xelaker4 votes

because assassin meta wasn't a bad time for squishy adc's because the tank meta wasn't adcs running about under the legs of titans battling it out because the ap meta didn't provide an ample selection of bursty ways to remove the adc because there's been a meta where supports were the focus

careful not to jerk yourself off too hard man, you'll break that arm of yours.

AirKingNeo1 votes

"Everything is an ADC meta because I act like every team doesn't need DPS and that they're just broken. Despite every team needing DPS, AND BURST, FRONTLINE, AND PEEL, which have two classes doing the job."

Just imagine of ADC was broken into two classes. Then what is your argument?

Mens Hair Club5 votes

i will not stand with mage scum lol

Done254 votes

Last I checked this game has always been a Marksman meta since season 1.

Other classes are occasionally allowed to be almost as good.

Vekkna4 votes

When was mage meta? Is that when all the gutted mages went support to still be playable?

PhantomGG2 votes

{quoted}

When was mage meta? Is that when all the gutted mages went support to still be playable?

2 years ago, Assasins were nerfed to the ground to the point even good zeds couldn't carry games anymore. Season 5 it was basically play wave clear mid laners, aka mages, and if you picked anything else you were quite literally trolling. Ive been playing for 5ish years, so at this point ive seen every class be meta at least twice. Riot tends to have 2 to 3 major meta shifts a year, one for winter/spring and the other for summer/fall. For example the beginning of this year was unarguably a heavy jungle carry favored meta. Now it's focused more so on enchanter supports with ardent censor.

Vekkna2 votes

From season 5 I remember Cinderhulk supertanks early season, then assassins in summer, then Juggernauts in fall. I don't recall this mage waveclear meta, except for the Ziggs ult nerf.

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

From season 5 I remember Cinderhulk supertanks early season, then assassins in summer, then Juggernauts in fall. I don't recall this mage waveclear meta, except for the Ziggs ult nerf.

than to be blunt the people you were playing with were playing incorrectly, Mages were by far, a must and a mandatory during season 5 simply because the tank junglers and top laners made Zed absolutely worthless along with many other assasins. The counter to assasins has and always will be super tanks, or enchanters with disengage tools.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

If any1 is honest, mage were meta a few month ago... i could argue they're still

Nymzo3 votes

{quoted}

the support meta,

I have yet to see that. We are talking about having at least 3 supports on the same thing like other metas right?

Unless you are talking about a juggermaw comp.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

The whole point of a support meta is to buff up a single person, because that is what supports are made to do. In that sense, a juggermaw comp, with something like a warden top, Lulu/Karma mid, and an enchanter support, can definitely be part of a support meta.

Nymzo2 votes

{quoted}

The whole point of a support meta is to buff up a single person, because that is what supports are made to do.

Correction: enchanters, Thresh and Blitz definately don't buff anyone.

with something like a warden top, Lulu/Karma mid, and an enchanter support

A warden? Since it's a support meta, we are talking about Alistar Braum Leona TahmKench right?

I can see only Tahm Kench been somewhat viable but I doubt it if he faces a good Riven or Renekton

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Shen? Mao'Kai? Galio? Poppy? Warden top laners definitely exist. They're not standard supports (although all of them technically could be supports), but they're still Wardens based around protecting and/or peeling for a single carry.

Nymzo2 votes

You are right but then it's not a support meta, it's a ''protect the adc'' meta like the one that we are currently are.

When someone says ''assassin meta'', ''adc meta'' or ''tank meta'', it's usually because you can see a lot of champions of this class in every match, so much so there's like 3 of them in one team.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Well then you have to question what a support is and what a support meta means. Graves and Quinn aren't really marksmen in the sense that they are bot laners and late-game hypercarries with long-range DPS, but they're still marksmen and are mentioned in references to marksmen metas. Swain, Orianna, and Zyra are very different champs and are usually played in different roles, but they all count as mages. Shen and Galio top aren't supports in the sense that they stand next to an ADC all game, but they still support and protect a main carry of the team as their main use.

A support meta will probably always be a protect the carry meta, since supports, by nature, try to assist their carries. It's not like you're going to see a team of Lulu, Ivern, Karma, Tahm Kench, and Rakan, because that comp is just running around initiating and shielding for each other without actually doing damage.

Serika Zero1 votes

i used to play lulu mid and top in season 5 before she got gutted............. there was also a time when karma or zillean mid were a thing

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

The assassin meta, the dreaded tank meta, the support meta, the marksman meta, the mage meta, each and every patch it feels like only one class matters and im starting to feel like riot does it on purpose to "keep things interesting". The other day in a topic I made a joke that went along the lines of.

hum

marksman meta ? isn't this every meta ?

AirKingNeo2 votes

How is every meta a marksmen meta? Because every team has one, like every team has a frontline, burst user, and a support? How is this any different?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

obviously i was ironic to begin... But i don't agree with ur "every team has a frontline, a burst user nor a support ".

AirKingNeo2 votes

But i don't agree with ur "every team has a frontline, a burst user nor a support ".

How do you disagree with a fact?

Every team has: DPS (Marksmen) Peel (Enchanter/Warden/Catcher/Controller) Burst (Mage/Assassin) Frontline (Bruiser/Tank)

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

If u pose it like that i agree. But :

  • they're always marksmen yeah, but could argue for dps thing (when ur adc take MF or Jhin).
  • they're not always a frontline (not in all meta).
AirKingNeo1 votes

There's never been a frontline-less meta.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Frontline bruiser? Jax, camille, jayce, irelia, fiora, riven are now frontlines?

AirKingNeo1 votes

Jax builds tanky. Jayce isn't a bruiser.

Camille, Fiora, and Riven are skirmishers, which are played when you have a tank jungler.

Queš2 votes

You forgot fighters XDDD no one likes fighters. Downvoted for this.

Erockandroll1 votes

It might be too much to ask. Their just seems to be too much levers in play, that affect the viability of a certain comp.

Riot worked hard to try and make Jungle tanks a little more viable. Of coarse they were already viable in top lane, so their attempt to increase Jungle diversity, made a multi tank comp a lot more viable. And of coarse ADCs became more viable as well because they melt tanks. (That's riot's perfect Imbalance at work.)

And then their are also environmental aspects that are going to shape the meta, regardless of champion balance. And likely it would be difficult to make both Early and Late game comps, equally as viable. And certain classes of champions also affect that balance. Siege mages for example are pretty good at stalling games due to their long range wave clear. (And when we had a late game meta, Riot ended up nerfing Ziggs and Xerath)

JMoormann1 votes

First of all, I don't think "only one class matters". I'm assuming that you are mainly talking about pro play, because in soloQ (aside from very high ELO, and then I mean like the top 0.05% (master and challenger)) over 90% of the champs is viable with around 50% win rate, and no classes are really obsolete (I can't remember there ever being a case where a complete class was completely unviable for soloQ).

Top lane features tanks like Cho, Shen and Maokai, as well as carries like Jayce, Kennen and Rumble and stuff in between like Jax, Jarvan (bruiser), Trundle and Gnar.

Jungle might be the most one sided with tanks like Gragas, Jarvan (full tank) and Sejuani dominating, but there is still plenty of room for pocket picks like Nidalee, Kayn, Ivern or even a full AD Rek'Sai like yesterday.

Mid lane currently has 3 (well let's say 2.5) classes: all sorts of mages, a few ADCs (Corki is still an ADC!) and a single tank (Galio).

Bot lane has only 1 class, but changing that would require a lot more effort than some simple balancing. And among the ADCs there are more viable champs (compared to some other metas) than usual, throughout the past few weeks we have seen Xayah, Trist, Kalista, Ashe, Sivir, Twitch, Kog, Jhin, Varus and Cait (and a single Lucian, but that didn't work).

And for support we have both enchanters and tanks in a decent spot.

Second, yes: that might be too much to ask for. There is not a big red "PERFECT BALANCE" button somewhere in Rito HQ. Balancing is an extremely extremely difficult matter, so we should not pretend like there is a simple solution to instantly make everything viable from bronze to worlds. So while pointing out interesting stats or offering suggestions does help, but just asking "Riot please make all classes equally good" seems a bit ignorant, because if it really was that easy, Riot probably would have done it by now.

TL;DR: Every class except maybe assassins (in pro play) is viable on at least 1 position, so the problem isn't that big. It obviously isn't perfect, but I don't think I could do a better job myself, and I think the same goes for the Boards.

Quepha1 votes

It is not too much to ask for but it is tto much to expect it to just easily happen and then maintain in perpetuity.

Riot and every other game company ever seeks to achieve that perfect balance and no one ever really hits it for an extended period of time. It's just a really hard problem.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Meta barely matters in gold and you seem to be gold. You can be lucky if your ADC knows how to farm and auto attack champions.

I played Soraka support some games ago and actually let the enemy Thresh hook me on purpose just so my ADC starts trading any damage at all.... well they went all in, I flashed out, we got a kill.

But when you have to deal with shit like this you don't need to worry about meta. It's not even remotely comparable to how higher elo games are played. Gold players can copy the meta but when this actually leads to success its just pure coincidence because they have no idea how to actually pull it off. You can't even get your team to focus on 1 objective without at least 2 players wandering off to do random things.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Meta really doesn't matter up until d3. There you actually see some good plays and players knowing what they do.

wyvern0119761 votes

There will always be a "strongest" option when it comes to games with many moving parts. You cant magically pull the "all balanced" lever. So there will always be a meta game attached to League. Every nerf leaves a new "strongest" option to fill the void of the old. Its just a cycle and part of the game is that cycle because without a changing meta it would be a dull game with few real options if you truly want to win. If the game remained static then within 3 months you would see the LCS move into a Paper/Rock/Scissors configuration like all games must do in absence of change. That means basically a pool of 15 champs with set item builds and roles. About 3 months after that Riot would be out of business. Changing metas means refreshed play options.

deadlychuck1 votes

No because riot designed the current game to pivot around this cycle.

AD "assassins" > Marksmen > Tanks > AD "assassins"

I put assassins in quotes, because it's really any AD champion which can deal burst damage to kill a marksman

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