If ADCs are going to be the only class that matters late game,

FalconPawwwwnch··117 votes·6,261 views

Can we make it so other classes beat them in lane?

There's no reason ADCs should be able to beat mages/bruisers/tanks etc in solo lanes when they by default have better late games due to multiplicative scaling and 45% bonus armor pen. They already have an entire lane dedicated to them, why are they allowed to force other classes out of their only viable roles?

I've played this game for a long, LONG time (long enough to have Judgment Kayle and Pax Jax) and I can honestly say, this is the most disgusting state of balance I've ever seen this game in so far when it comes to class-to-class balance. Season 2 Metagolem was pretty bad but at least mages/ADCs/tanks still had their uses, Season 3 running double AP and a support with zhonya's was bad, running multiple tanks last season was horrible, and at the time I thought that was the worse, but my god, this takes the cake. Combining this with the mess that is Dynamic Queue I can't even play the game anymore. ADCs already were the only mandatory role, but now they also win lanes vs. every other class and outlate game them all just as easily.

And the worst part? Instead of doing what they should do (toning the ENTIRE ADC class down across the board to put it in line with mages/bruisers/tanks) they buff individual ADCs on PBE even further to powercreep the class even harder! ADCs should NOT be winning lanes vs. mages/bruisers/tanks if they are going to outlate game them all. Their level one stats need nerfs across the board to put them in line. Either that, or they need MASSIVE late game nerfs to make it so other classes actually have a chance to outcarry them

It's not like you can play mages bot or top lane, and it's not like you can send a lot of bruisers/tanks mid or bot

There's a reason teams are taking multiple ADCs atm, nobody cares if ADCs can go in solo lanes, but then other classes should be able to compete with them bot lane

116 Comments

Kiyoish39 votes

lets make it so kogmaw is as tanky as tanks while out putting the damage of two zeds to up to three targets lmao

next you'll tell me graves is gonna be oneshotting anyone without 4k hp 300 armor

oh wait

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

lets make it so kogmaw is as tanky as tanks while out putting the damage of two zeds to up to three targets lmao

next you'll tell me graves is gonna be oneshotting anyone without 4k hp 300 armor

oh wait

Did someone in LSC finally start using the TanKog build I've been running for years over in Dominion-Land?

About time, I guess.

Those Kog nerfs can't come fast enough. Get my main out of the spotlight.

Eevee In A Jar4 votes

For what? You play dominion and bots mostly. Means you don't have to worry about him getting banned.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

For what? You play dominion and bots mostly. Means you don't have to worry about him getting banned.

Not going to be able to play Dominion anymore soon =<

Maybe I just care about my favorite champion being healthy for the game?

Eevee In A Jar2 votes

But you just asked for Kog nerfs and want your main out of the spotlight. He's finally being used after being kind of irrelevant for a bit. I mean it's not even like Kog is ban worthy really either.

yoniame2 votes

MissFortuneitem 3147 item 3147 item 3147 item 3031 item 3508 item 1331 +hard cc team=free penta every teamfight (her ulti hits 4600-5000 with this build

Hello I am Bird3 votes

Wouldn't you get more use out of other items besides item 3147? I can understand maybe building 1 but 3 seems a bit excessive lol.

Standgrounding7 votes

MissFortune item 3812 item 3072 item 3147 item 3508 item 1331 item 3031 I think he meant this.

  • Death's dance heals for ALL physical damage(reduced for AOE though, but that doesn't matter for a 5k dmg ult)
Marshbouy3 votes

dont forget item 2140

MilfHuntUnitM1T2 votes

{quoted}

MissFortuneitem 3147 item 3147 item 3147 item 3031 item 3508 item 1331 +hard cc team=free penta every teamfight (her ulti hits 4600-5000 with this build

that build is actually horrible

yoniame1 votes

for the enemy :D

MilfHuntUnitM1T2 votes

{quoted}

for the enemy :D

yes.. because you feed them and it makes it unfun for them giving such an easy win

Haunt27 votes

My favorite part is when they buy Sterak's Elo and become tanks

I also like when Graves uses his Defensive Ball Curl with this item to make him tanky as dicks while bursting you from range! Yay!

ZT Xperimentor18 votes

Cannot upvote enough; these triple carry teams are just boringly overpowered.

yoniame2 votes

most typical team:XinZhao Zed Vayne Graves Malphite

Dengeden17 votes

The solo lane ADCs you're referring to are AD casters. They fall off late game, so dw.

And stop perpetuating the lie of "power creep", everything ever gets nerfed.

FalconPawwwwnch13 votes

lmao

Except unlike mages, AD casters at range also have, well, autoattacks

which have multiplicative scaling

Dengeden2 votes

The only way for them to have proper scaling with AAs is to have huge buffs to their AAs (Vayne) or a plain old AS buff (Trist). Otherwise, there's literally no difference between them and AD Raka.

The only one even remotely similar to them is solo lane Lucian and considering his lack of CC, he'll rarely get play mid/top.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Quinn has an AS steroid shock gasp and does not really NEED crit late game when she true damages your ADC for their health bar at 1,000,000 tph (teemos per hour)

Dengeden2 votes

Oh, you mean that escapeless champion that gets blown up when the enemy team breathes on her? The one that somehow, miraculously proc'd her passive through the frontline? The one without any true damage in her kit?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Quinn build is almost all ArP so she does indeed do near true damage to ADCs.

Quinn excels in flanks and picks so she bypasses the front line.

And finally, last I checked Vault is a very good way to get ANY melee off of you unless they have multiple dashes in their kit. Xin E's you? Vault and laugh at him and blind him for good measure. Same with most other typical melees baring some exceptions.

Anidan2 votes

So... we're just gonna fiat the whole scenario?

There are better targets here than Quinn to fiat ludicrous scenarios with.

yay nibbers5 votes

Only if they build crit.

Which they don't.

Because they aren't in bot.

TehNACHO10 votes

While I agree with the sentiment that champions that are strong late game should generally be weaker late game, nearly half the ADC line up are early game orientated and in fact fall off as the game goes on.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ezreal/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Corki/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Lucian/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Graves/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Quinn/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Draven/ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Sivir/ADC

The early game lane bully ADCs are not the squishy one shotting hyper tank melting late game hyper carries that will dominate late game. It helps not to overgeneralize ADCs as a class, in this regard.

FalconPawwwwnch11 votes

Have you ever seen teams run 3 fighters for months before? Or 3 mages?

How can you honestly watch competitive play right now and tell me Marksmen as a whole aren't overpowered

Anidan16 votes

3 fighters?

You mean the metagolem? Yes. We were there for that. Wukong top, J4 Jungle, Lee mid for days, baby. Or, you could switch up any of the 3, really. Or you could have Garen top with that item build, or... you get the point. 3 fighters has been done for months on end before. 3 Mages is only painful because they lack solid penetration items, and some champions have pretty good counters to mages as the game gets rolling, because mages aren't supposed to be late-game gods for the most part (with exceptions, of course).

Marksmen can stand to be toned down, but notice how it's the early-game ADCs that are mostly wrecking house. Then, you notice that AD itemization is a little wonky. Then, for a third observation, notice how this meta is early-mid oriented. Putting those together we see a fuller picture than just one archetype being ridiculous, because a lot of people are ridiculous. ADCs seem more absurd because you're looking at potentially safe champions that were designed to be safe, using items that are currently wonky, in a meta suited for their early-game dominance. If you look at statistics (which I know totally don't matter in any argument it's detrimental to, but are totally allowed in arguments in which they're beneficial) we can see that many of the highest rated champions have an early power-spike, and use AD items, and aren't all necessarily ADCs.

Also, I like that Lucian seems to be slipping under the radar of true rage despite his forty-cocking-three percent pickrate in plat+. Yet, when Vayne or Ezreal approach that then it's apparently so cancerous that it's going to destroy the playerbase.

Emperor Time9 votes

Anyone who talks about Lucian is deemed a racist so no one will attack that champion lol

Bard in a Diaper12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emperor Time,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mkzx0zkq,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-19T11:29:44.034+0000)

Anyone who talks about Lucian is deemed a racist so no one will attack that champion lol

he doesnt really have any inherently unfair mechanic. He's overtuned slightly numbers wise but nothing crazy. Champions like kog/graves/ezreal/corki have completely game altering effects

Jasiwel3 votes

I agree. I think he'll end up in a similar balance pattern with Corki, where his numbers will bounce around from time to time. He's getting closer, but I think his burst is still a bit much given how much sustained damage he can deal, on top of the mobility.

The Bearded Bard14 votes

Hate to break it to you, but every single full build ADC will outdamage every other full build champion in the game. I promise you that.

Also, Kog'maw and Draven are supposed to be stronger than most champs in the late game, they're hypercarries. They don't fall off.

Haunt15 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mkzx0zkq,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-02-19T04:55:10.538+0000)

Hate to break it to you, but every single full build ADC will outdamage every other full build champion in the game. I promise you that.

Also, Kog'maw and Draven are supposed to be stronger than most champs in the late game, they're hypercarries. They don't fall off.

His point is that they're doing it in lanes other than bot lane consistently through the early-mid game.

They can have their late game. They shouldn't have their early game that they currently have when they go to these solo lanes and out preform everything.

Emperor Time9 votes

Top lane ADC's don't build standard bot lane ADC items. I'll agree Quinn is a little fucking ridiculous right now, but she certainly won't outdamage a Master Yi or a Xin Zhao late game or a Nasus if he ever get's to late game. Also not sure who told you Draven is a hypercarry, actually he's the exact opposite. Draven falls of super hard as the game goes on. Here's some statistics if you don't believe me http://champion.gg/champion/Draven/ADC I wouldn't say marksman as a whole are overpowered, I would say there are certain champions that just need to be tuned down.

RocketRelm6 votes

The major issue is that "doesn't scale well" has a literal different meaning when applied to adc than when applied to other classes. When applied to something like, say, Shaco, it means "actually a 4v5 past 25 min". When applied to Lucian, it means "can't 3 shot the tank".

universe within10 votes

Fuck adcs.

Quintessence9 votes

I think the biggest offenders right now are Kog'maw and Corki with their single item power spikes that allow them to dominate early game and mid/late... Riot pls :(

Lugg9 votes

ADCs are the only class that matter late game? Tell that to Veigar Karthus Nasus Thresh Sion Jax DrMundo Mordekaiser Singed

WarlockLaw3 votes

Morde currently is a mid game champ. He is weak both early and mid. http://champion.gg/champion/Mordekaiser

As for the others, exceptions do not make a trend. Late game mages in general struggle to kill tanks, die to both assassins and fighters, and can't output the same level of damage as adcs. Assassins struggle to kill tanks and fighters, as well as grouped teams. Fighters can't kill teams as safely as adcs. Tanks generally can't kill things. Those are what is generally true of classes, their are a few exceptions to each case, but exceptions are not the rule.

Adcs do need to be cut back a tad to be more fair to other classes (especially mages)

Lugg2 votes

The problem with Morde late is that he can be kited. If you can't kite him, good luck.

As for mages having trouble with tanks and assassins, Malzahar would like a word with you.

Assassins don't struggle to kill anyone until late game. They are very dominate early and mid.

As for Fighters, Yasuo can safely kill entire teams with his ult.

There are plenty more examples. I do agree that the top tier ADCs do need toned back some.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

You missed the point. He said there are exceptions to every rule of thumb. Out of the 30+ Mages only maybe 8 can deal with tanks or assassins. That is still a huge minority. An assassin would have to be extremely fed OR extremely dumb to try to kill a tank (you NEVER see Zed or Fizz ult one on purpose).

Lugg1 votes

That's because the majority of mages do lots of AoE damage. That's what the assassins are for, taking out those big threats.

As for tanks, they are all easily killable for Zed or Fizz until they get enough armor or MR. Armor and MR cost lots, so that doesn't usually happen till the middle of the game and both of them can easily get fed by then.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Again, those two are little more geared to kill I g tanks then their class at large. Every see Talon or LeBlanc kill a tank they stumble across in the jungle? What about Kha or Rengar? Typically they'll run away from the tank unless they are already fed, and fed champions rarely follow even their own rules

WadeWilson13377 votes

Corki and Quinn are way too strong in solo lanes. im okay with ADCs being strong, but they are cancer champs

AlwaysByMySide7 votes

Do ADCs other than Quinn, Graves, and Corki solo lane in professional play? Because in solo queue at least those champions fall off.

Roseluck6 votes

I most certainly agree that Top and Jung are no place for ADCs. Any that actually go there, like Graves Quinn Kindred Vayne all suffer from ridiculously awful design and are extremely frustrating to play against as a tank or even a bruiser in early game. Kindred is probably the most anti-fun hero I've ever seen in a game, but I digress. In mid I don't mind them, since that's the rotten hole where all the assassins go anyway. There's no worse feeling than wanting to have some fun playing a tank in top and then seeing the enemy lock in Quinn. It just makes me want to quit the game right there. Even worse than Teemo, at least if I get the jump on him I'll be able to whack him, no excessive dashes to be found

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I concur, those 4 (& kalista) are by far the worst unless you're playing some kind of cheese comp.

KETSU06 votes

if only Rengar didn't recieve that nerf he would've put those bitches in line

Phoenix Kotori 5 votes

I am just here to say Quinn in particular has always been an early-mid game focused champion pre-work, and she still is after the rework, in top lane her win rate falls off pretty hard post 35 minutes, because she's more relevant in skirmishes, ganks, and picks than team fights unless she's way ahead.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Side point to that: GB Quinn builds fall off late game, ADC crit Quinn doesn't (never did in the first place either)

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

Even Crit Quinn for adc role, her win rate still falls off post 35 minutes according champion.gg's data.

Failnewb3 votes

The balance state as a whole is disgusting right now. Everything hits far too hard. a 4k HP leona with over 200 armor and magic resist is getting bursted in under 3 seconds. Let alone trying to play any of the squishy supports against kog's/ezreal/panth/elise/udyr or any of the other fast as hell people that can 1 shot. Without a pre-made I can't even ward 90% of the time. They can cross half the map in the space of my 3 autos and then 2 shot me. soloqueu has essentially become who got the broken champs in select. GG game over. and cant even get cohesive bans because 3 people do it.

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