Hey guys it appears people are complaining about melee being useless again, what should we do?
Oh I have an idea, how about a champion with a 20% HP nuke that can dash away on every auto attack!... what?
Oh also Sion has lower armor than Lucian. You know, because Sion is hard to kill... for range, sometimes, I guess.
ImpendingDeath18 votes"Mobility creep is a real problem in this game!" releases Kalista
ProfDrDeath8 votesWhat would really interest me with Kalista is exactly how much extra ground her passive covers, compared to shooting and moving in between. Despite that passive, she has low MS (325), and can't cancel her animations, either.
Dodging certain skillshots could really be a pain in the ass with her.
MrBuffington5 votesFrom what I can tell, mid-late game she actually loses DPS (compared to other ADCs) due to her auto wind-up and the animation time of the dash (and of course depending on your mechanics). It's looking to me like she's actually worse at kiting for short periods of time compared to other ADCs with a dash, just due to the downtime she has inbetween her autos and the comparatively shorter ranged dash (and no self peel or juking mechanics of Vayne), but if you don't catch her in the beginning, it's going to be pretty tough to get on her afterwards.
I could be completely wrong though :P
SerBlaise11 votesThe real issue is who its a problem for. Mobility creep isn't a problem for mobile champs like kalista. They need to give strengths for unmobile champs, not remove mobility IMO.
Remlap12232 votesExactly. Long time players will shake thier fists at Lee Sin and Leblanc for embodying the worst in mobility creep, but in reality Ashe and Varus are just bottom-tier. They don't have anywhere near enough utility to justify their lack of escapes. Before you drop the downvote hammer, let me show examples from Smite. Smite never had "mobility creep" per say, because all their champs came packaged with huge amounts of mobility. And if they didn't, they have a fuckton of utility to back it up (Critemis just chunking gods and locking them down effortlessly, Nox an ObNoxIous anti-caster, Sylvanus being broken, etc.) What about Ashe? The only hard CC she has is her Ultimate when Morgana gets it on her Q that lasts equally as long. Varus? Same boat.
So instead of telling Riot to do something about mobility creep, rework the dashing system so that the guys with no hard CC can still keep LeBlanc from double dashing effectively the entire game.
2pudge1cup1 votesCertainlyT
wolfax10 votesPeople complain because the only viable melees are always deemed OP/broken/(insert new buzz word here) and people beg them to be gutted. Yasuo was strong, but nope, he's too broken so Riot needed to destroy him so people didn't have to learn to play against him.
Agent209013 votesPeople complain because the only viable melees are always deemed OP/broken/(insert new buzz word here) and people beg them to be gutted. Yasuo was strong, but nope, he's too broken so Riot needed to destroy him so people didn't have to learn to play against him.
Exactly, every time a melee champ comes into the limelight, everyone complains and they eventually get nerfed. Yasuo got his, now I suppose it won't be long until Akali bites the bullet. Wonder which melee champ will be next on the chopping block, Rammus perhaps?
Feathermane8 votesOK, this is true, but it needs expanding. Any champion that begins to crowd out other picks is complained about, and they eventually get nerfed. Except Lee Sin, but he is melee so you will conveniently ignore that.
Agent20901 votesOK, this is true, but it needs expanding. Any champion that begins to crowd out other picks is complained about, and they eventually get nerfed. Except Lee Sin, but he is melee so you will conveniently ignore that.
Not really ignoring, Riot already mentioned that they would work on him to make sure he doesn't overpower in S5. He has a hard kit to balance, much like Lucian has been giving them trouble.
hashinshin7 votesOK, this is true, but it needs expanding. Any champion that begins to crowd out other picks is complained about, and they eventually get nerfed. Except Lee Sin, but he is melee so you will conveniently ignore that.
Except for the 30 times they've nerfed lee he has never been nerfed.
Gløry5 votesLee's moveset will always make him good, no matter how much he's nerfed. As long as his Q does decent damage and the rest of his moves move him around the map and displace enemies, that's all Lee needs.
Rags 2 Legendary4 votesTo beat Yasuo you had to play a near perfect game. However, to win as Yasuo, you could make several mistakes, and still come out on top. I haven't played him enough to know about the nerfs in great detail, but beforehand, any competent player could go legendary with ease as Yasuo.
Regardless, melee champions are actually quite strong. A ranged AA distance is very insignificant, especially if you consider the leaps, dashes, and blinks available to most melee champions. Furthermore, it is often difficult to be ranged and still build tank, so most ranged champions get diced fairly easily.
The only real difficult part about melee vs. ranged is perhaps the laning phase. In the end, the equalizer (the jungle) is always around to help if you can't CS at all.
Drogmyre2 votesRelease Yasuo had some pretty BS numbers on his shield and his damage was just wayyyy too high.
Feathermane5 votesWhile in reality, release Yasuo was balanced? Do you self-medicate by any chance?
Onegarion6 votesYasuo had his own problems and the issue I find is that most of the Melee champs that are usually good are assassins or burst you before you can do anything. Yi/Yas/Fiora are the ones that come to mind that really irritate me personally. They have an underlying factor that I think needs to be toned back, but not removed since I feel like this is everyone's reaction and Riots decision instead of tweaking.
I'm tired of riot gutting champs anyway. I feel like there are small tweaks and number reworks. Looking at Yas again I don't think they targeted the right area for him. I think they should have hit his passive instead of his base stats that they did. His survivability was never the problem imo, but his straight damage early and having to only get 1 item before he starts to spike. This coupled with a great late game caused for a champion that is fun to play, but beyond overpowered. Yet instead of targeting his late game or making his early game worse they destroyed his survivability to the point of his Win rate dying. I think if they made his passive scale at lvls 6, 11, and 16 so that his passive now is the lvl 16 scale would make yasuo better as an overall champ.
Now that i got my minor rant out I really think the problem is also the fact that for some of the stronger melee champs if they get a small edge they can do what they want. They can zone better than most Ranged champs. I'm looking mainly at snowballing champs here. So yea you could say that is a problem or you could focus on this a little bit and use this to "balance melee" champs.
a call beyond8 voteshow many of the recently released champs aren't designed to completely shit on melees?
wolfax6 votesBraum was noticeably anti ranged. Yasuo was noticeably anti ranged.
Earl Eulrich3 votesBraum is really a two-sided sword here. He really draws a lot of power from being able to protect his own carry really well from ranged and melee (slow, stun, ult are all anti-melee) attackers...so he is more pro-ranged than anti-ranged.
hashinshin6 votesBraum is really a two-sided sword here. He really draws a lot of power from being able to protect his own carry really well from ranged and melee (slow, stun, ult are all anti-melee) attackers...so he is more pro-ranged than anti-ranged.
Yeah I don't quite understand this braum thing. It's awful hard to melee when you eat an 80% slow in to a stun in to a slow field + knock up in to an 80% slow.
Onegarion1 votesYou could say the same thing about anyone tho. Its hard to hit from rang when you are trying to walk through
an 80% slow into a stun into a slow field +knock up into an 80% slow.
Its not really easy for range champs either. You have to differentiate between melees like Udyr and melees like Akali and gap closers and nongap closers. Braum and any form of CC really hurts nongap closers so its not really fair to compare it to only melee champs. Any champion ranged or melee with a gap closer doesn't care as much about these forms of CC. If you didn't have this there would be much to combat Melee champs late game. Early game they get out harassed pretty easy, but late game or the moment they can close the gap through gap closers or simply walking up to them there is no getting them off.
Earl Eulrich1 votes
slow, dash, wall of "don´t touch me"
either he kites you or he stomps you
another great peeler
can be a menace, but actually a farily fair champ
had been overly strong during the first months, now he tends to lose to other melees early on at least (though he outscales most fiarly hard)
chompers say no
no comment
...
yea, not really much love for melees, but hey - kalista can help out by throwing melees onto the opponent!
Onegarion4 votesYea jinx has chompers, but if you blindly walk into them thats kind of your own fault. Also jinx wouldn't have anything else to keep you off since Zap roots you during it.
Lucian is his own monster. I really wish they would revert the E changes and make it remove slows instead of spammable, but I think thats just me.
Azir is a zone control champ. He isn't directly designed to counter melee, but to control an area. His ult hurts Ranged the same as melee.
Gnar is gnar. Can't really say much since his kit is kind of CC heavy, but squishier assassins can really beat down mini gnar. He has double the weaknesses and double the strengths, but just not at the same time.
Vel koz I can't agree more. Aside from the fact that I recently have been playing him a ton I think he truly is one of the more fair and balanced champs right now. He is a straight skill matchup imo where he can beat anyone, but you have to make sure you play it just right. He has no real unfair advantage and has obvious weaknesses that you can exploit.
Braum is a support. Maybe a little CC heavy even by a supports standards, but he is a support. Leo kind of does the same thing in a different way.
Yas got destroyed with the recent nerfs. I really think they targeted the wrong areas and looked at the problem from the wrong angle, but yes he did start to get beat out by many melees early, but would outscale later if you let him.
A quick note on Kalista that has me a little urked is that people complain about this dash, but its about the range of Vayne's tumble and its only active during a very short time after she attacks. It makes her a great kiting ADC, but she isn't going to get away and just give the middle finger to every melee. She still is an ADC and would have to Auto to get her passive to work. She can't cancel autos like others so she has to finish her whole AA animation so she doesn't get to deal extra damage by canceling. Overall no one has gotten to know how she works to even have a stance. /rant
Dryditch1 votesExactly none.
MrSc0tty1 voteshow many of the recently released champs aren't designed to completely shit on melees?
Yasuo.
Pop quiz: which new champion has close to the lowest winrate in the game?
Rinky Dinky2 votesYou can go home now
Drunk Rummate1 voteshow many of the recently released champs aren't designed to completely shit on melees?
Well lets see...
Velkoz and Jinx are relatively bad against Melees Azir is pretty good, assuming his ultimate is up of course Gnar is only scary when he's in passive, which is melee Braum is a melee who shits on ranged and skillshot champions Yasuo is a melee assassin who shits on ranged and skillshot champions Lucian is a ranged adc/caster who shits on everyone
So I pretty much fail to see your point here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
MrSc0tty6 votesRyze nerfs, Dshield buffs, regen buffs, anti poke comp mechanics....I'm starting to be MAYBE hopeful.
Hayaishi6 votesRiot doesnt think before designing, wont stick to their balance philosophy wont stick to their design values.
No wonder this game has never been close to balanced.
When Riot (for example) calls Akali toxic yet allows her to be viable and champions like Olaf (who wasnt nowhere near as toxic as akali is) gets gutted and ignored you know Riot doesnt give a fuck.
Instead of looking for balance alternatives they give the same old excuses "bruiser rework" "muh identity"
I llike playing melee bruisers, i enjoyed playing Shyv and Renekton and its said you cant play a melee outside of the jungle reliably.
"We dont want match ups to be decided in champ select" yet you cant pick a melee top lane if they pick something ranged.
MrBuffington5 votesYea, I got pretty excited when they teased Gnar, saying he was a top laner. I started thinking we might get a cool melee bruiser; nope, ranged champ (I mean, he's like 70% ranged at least, spends most of his time in ranged form)
Oh also Sion has lower armor than Lucian.
lmao dafuq? That's messed up, dude
FalconPawwwwnch4 votesI don't know why you keep making these posts. We all know Riot is blatantly biased towards ranged champions. Their balance history shows this, competitive play shows this, etc.
You keep making these hopeless posts when everyone knows by this point that Riot has no intention of making melee vs range an equal footing in this game. You know this better than anyone else. I know I gave up trying to make a post about it a long time ago, ever since Ghostcrawler gave a half ass response when replying to why Omen slow was removed when red buff's wasn't (He said "I don't know", yea, good reasoning).
Zirzon3 votesMelees aren't useless, just... Different. They simply have very different play styles from ranged. Melee champs have a harder time of deciding when to attack than ranged, simply because of how they are more exposed to attacks while doing so. This requires more difficult choices to be made in trading damage. Melees are more reliant on moments of power, and their enemy's moments of weakness.
Not to mention that I'm pretty sure if ranged champions were entirely superior, you wouldn't have seen any melees at Worlds...
LordOfTheLeague2 votesYou lose your time OP, a Red said ranged should always win if both players play it right, and the melee win only if the ranged champ play it wrong.
Solidair32 votesThis is a problem of mobility vs immobility, I'd say.
Mobility will ALWAYS shit on immobility unless they're given a bullshit lockdown move.
BlackRaven2 voteslee has been nerfed so many times but it wont matter. as long as you idiots pick ezreal jungle and wonder why a fucking lee is winning the jungle vs you, you will never shut your mouths.
Dryditch2 votesWho the fuck takes Ez jungle? There's only one viable jungle pick, and that's Volibear.
Rinky Dinky1 votesIm gonna be Frank, you're an idiot. Name one champ that beats Lee Sin in the current jungle. Name one. Name just one fucking champ that will 100% ruin Lee Sin's Day. You cant, because it doesn't exist. Reverse the question, and the entire champion roster pops up. (Exaggerated for Comedic Effect)
BlackRaven2 votesIm gonna be Frank, you're an idiot. Name one champ that beats Lee Sin in the current jungle. Name one. Name just one fucking champ that will 100% ruin Lee Sin's Day. You cant, because it doesn't exist. Reverse the question, and the entire champion roster pops up. (Exaggerated for Comedic Effect)
khazix. kha zix, kha zix, kha zix , kha zix. shut the fuck up you ignorant cunt. kha beats EVERYONE in the jungle if played smartly. I repeat EVERYONE.
WooBeeWoo2 votesLee Sin is really good but he's not that insane and honestly I think pretty well balanced. I can beat a Lee with Udyr almost everytime. I can beat a Lee with Vi too. On top of the Kha is hands down (thank god for the nerfs cause that was ridiculous) better.
Rinky Dinky2 votesHow to fix the mobility crises. Slows effect dashes. Done.
I know it wouldnt fix everything 100%, but it would fix alooooot.
blubabby1 votesI hate to ask this question. I haven't played enough dota to realise why, but why is it possible for melee to do well against ranged in that game? Despite a good number of Heroes having mobility and everyone having access fo Force Staff and Blink Dagger and Phase Boots how has Icefrog managed to keep mobility creep down and keep the ranged vs melee problem at bay?
SouL1ess1 votesI'm pretty rusty with DotA stats now but:
20% chance to reduce 25 damage on an item that can be bought before creeps spawn.
Ranged attacks do 40 damage at most early game.
Two spell casts at level 3 causes you to be OOM for most heroes, so early harass is much harder to achieve - this effect is increased by the fact that healing consumables aren't especially expensive but very effective at keeping someone in lane, at least for pre-level-6 laning.
Melee carries have damage-mitigation mechanisms (see spectre passively taking 16% less damage from all sources)
Melee actually has statistical advantage compared to Ranged (i.e. can have 400 health more than Ranged when max level, more base damage, more attackspeed, more base armor)
Turn rate making Ranged Orbwalking when moving backwards inefficient
Gold in DotA being a precious resource, and spending it on Force Staff and Blink Dagger has equally powerful opportunity costs
BlackRaven1 votesim just saying most of the people complaining about lee are bronze-silver who have no idea how to counter him,
WooBeeWoo1 votesThey clearly have no clue what they are doing with ranged. for some reason thats their baby and they insist that ranged AA be the most important champ on the map and I don't know why.
Cindikle1 votesMaking good summoner spells is the real solution. Dawngate had a great setup for this.
They had a spell that gave 30% MS for 6s and CC(excluding suppression) immunity for 3s to melee and 1.5s to ranged.
This made so many melee's viable in that game. Obviously it'd be OP on many champions. But it's not rare for Riot to change something and have to balance a few champions around that change. But the fact is that it would make many champions who need this type of spell viable. Even ranged ones who would have half the duration of immunity. It's not like Cleanse is in a great spot right now either.
Sure that game had it's own version of Flash as well. But it was never really mandatory on most champions. It was still a strong pick. Then again the game had little resource costs. So a champion with mobility really wasn't punished for using it like you would be in League. Another lesson Riot could learn here as well. I feel most Melee's would be in a far greater spot without some of their mana costs. They can be re-balanced around this. Gaining other options such as Rage or even something new. Top of that this would also made a few more options in the jungle. Being able to spam an ability on a stationary mob isn't the same as harassing an opponent. It can be balanced to work.
Genova Fearbane1 votesOMFG GUYS SION HAS 1 LESS BASE ARMOR THAN LUCIAN FLIP OUT!!! You failed to acknowledge that Sion also gains MR per level unlike Lucian, and Sion gains more HP per level as well (As long as people know how to CS.)
Also I'm on PBE, and Kalista dies very quickly when CC'd. Basically like Yi, Fiora, or Kat.
ThePurpleKnight1 votesLol if you want an example of Ranged favoritism, here is one, we can agree that ranged is easier to auto with right? Therefor they should do less damage and stuff to balance it out, that is fair.
Why then is the highest attack speed champion a permanent 130% attack speed ranged champion, meanwhile the highest for melee is 120% temporarily and still requires the stack up part. Jink is the ultimate example of ranged favoritism, every number in her character is bullshit with the exception of her low level W base damage, but dnt worry the scaling is bullshit enough to make up for it. Meanwhile melee champs with a similar stacking attack speed Q like Skarner cap at 48%, Jinx gets that with 1 auto. I don't think Skarner Q should be 130%, that'd be bullshit even on such a pathetic champion, but come on, it's more deserving of 130% than Jinx is.
Pervy1 votesThe game is almost like paper sissors rock, some melee champs get owned by various ranged champs, then others obliterate them. Every champ has its awesome match ups, even matchups and horrible match ups where you wish you could nerf the other champ completely. So far to me it seems that most champs are reasonably balanced and have a particular counter that devistates them.
I think that the bigger issue is that some champs get played upto 44% of all ranked game's and other get picked less than 1%, therefore some champs never get to be considered "OP" because they very rarely get matched against their "counter part"... at least thats the way it seems in the OCE ranked game stats.
I purposely looked at all the champions that have been picked the most and Identified the best "counter" that is the least played. Practiced them like crazy and it seems to have helped alot in my win rate. The lower the pick rate, the less likely the player is to have faced them frequently enough to figure out all of their moves and it gives you a better chance at winning.
The main champ I use no is Heimerdinger (before everyone says OMG thats a noob champ) it actually takes a hell of a lot of skill to play him knowing which way to set your towers up & the higher the MMR of your opponents the trickier and smarter you need to play, but the good thing about him is that you can play him in almost every spot & he only has a 1.4% pick rate... people arent used to facing him & dont know how to beat him until its too late & you already have the gold advantage.
Pervy1 votesIf you look at the win rate, it seems majority of all the champs with the highest win rates are melee champs.
2pudge1cup1 votesI just hope solo queuers say no to that stupid passive every time.