There's a very specific reason that Zoe's Sleepy Trouble Bubble is a problem:

HalcyonDweller·Feb 6, 2018·6 votes·1,960 views

It takes advantage of and/or violates a basic rule of trading.

When an opponent trades with you, you are supposed to trade back so they don't get free damage off on you.

But Zoe's E refunds a portion of it's cooldown whenever she lands it. Between the cc duration, the delays in her abilities, and the distance from which she can strike, YOU DON'T GET A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO TRADE BACK AFTERWARDS. If you do try, she will be able to cast it on you again and just chunk you harder. And that's not fair.

12 Comments

DEDManWonderLandFeb 6, 20181 votes

He paddle star does an insane amount of damage but to counter this just get someone who can get on her and stay on her. Played zoe mid and literally could do nothing against vi's constant ganks. Even if i hit her with the sleepy bubble the knockback from vi's Q made it impossible to take advantage of that

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20182 votes

You downvoted my post for this? I wasn't even talking about Paddlestar.

R31W1NGFeb 6, 20181 votes

e does no innate damage and serves the purpose of doubling paddlestar's output. without paddlestar it's just a delayed stun where any damage while stunned will remove the debuff. if you get hit by her e hug wave without being in paddlestar's AOE range in regards to them. or just gap close and all in her which will let you hurt her while reducing the range and therefore the damage from the paddlestar. Or just dodge the e. also if she misses her q or her e punish her. Done, that's how you trade against her. she's ap so her aa does nothing(aside from her passive). it's the same core concepts as playing against a syndra or a jayce.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20182 votes

The window for trading is unreal. You can initiate a trade, but if you do then she has an easier time aiming E at you. And if you instead let her initiate the trades then she can just fish for successful E's and then poke you without repercussion. There is no trading back with her. It's counter-intuitive and violates basic rules of trading.

R31W1NGFeb 8, 20181 votes

her E has a 14 CD at max rank, the refund requires it putting a champion asleep. her q has a 4.8s CD at max rank.

her q's damage is reduced by making it travel less, reach move or dash and beat the tartarus out of her. rules of trading not violated.

the biggest problem while trading properly with her is her built in lich bane without a hard CD that her q can double proc.

her full combo of .... after attempting to right the 2 different ways her full combo can be done and what is usually considered her full combo is done i realize most zoe's don't AA enough(like half of the passive empowered AAs aren't thrown(attempt an AP bruiser build and see if damage has a significant enough fall off with getting in those extra AA??)) and it takes far too much space is mostly so powerful as the current state of ADCs make it very difficult to justify building MR as anyone but her laner or in the rare event of the enemy stacking AP champs.

her unsuccessful e combo of q(summon), AA, q(throw), AA, w, AA, with an ulti and AA somewhere between is significantly less damage. the actual q(throw) is variable as it is dodgeable.

the point is when she misses her E she is easily punished. she barely broke positive WR in NA plat+ play during 8.2 for a reason.

furthermore item 3140 item 3156 item 3139 item 3065 item 3001 item 3102 item 3194

all of these items are good against her, that last one is amazing against her

TLDR; Just because you haven't figured out how to trade against her doesn't mean she can't be traded against.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 8, 20181 votes

Thanks for all that info. Since the game where it happened I already have figured out to get Banshee's Veil against her, but I'm not talking about late game, I'm talking about around level 6.

Let me try to explain it from my perspective. A week or so ago, I was playing Ahri against Zoe. We were both at or just above lvl 6. She landed E. She chunked me as she is apt to do. Then I went for an engage to punish her for trading, and she just E'd me again point blank. I felt violated. When people trade with you you are supposed to be able to trade back. That's not what it felt like at all.

R31W1NGFeb 13, 20181 votes

your either aren't pressuring her enough, or paying enough attention to her animations. e is easy to dodge and especially so if you see the animation. if you don't see the animation is probably do to her using it over a wall and you being near one.

trading against a mage has always meant avoiding their skill damage. after avoiding it trade. especially when they have cc.

dodging skills is part of trading. after avoiding them trade.

just because you feel violated doesn't mean you are. zoe is fair. the metric's show it.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 13, 20181 votes

That's not trading that is poking. It's different.

And you should be able to fight back against a character when they have used up their CC. Against Zoe you can't. She can just fish for E's until she lands one.

Zoe isn't fair, the fact that Riot is nerfing her shows it.

R31W1NGFeb 18, 20181 votes

poking is trading where the other guy has failed to hit back.. furthermore max rank e has a 14cd. that's 14s to trade with her without fear of it. riot is nerfing her because of outcry not because she is unfair. it is un-fun for those unwilling to learn how she works and how to properly trade against her. her WR in plat+ shows and outside of the first patch with her has shown she is not unfair.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 20, 20181 votes

"failed to hit back" As if there was ever an opportunity to attempt so in the first place.

"14 seconds" That's if she misses E, but any good Zoe will play super safe after missing E, so there's not really any opportunity.

Here's the order of events:

Press E
Did it hit?

Yes? Free poke.
No? It's ok, just stand back and play safe for a few seconds. It will be up soon enough.

Rinse and repeat.

Note the lack of opponent interaction after step 1.

paisyFeb 7, 20181 votes

She only gets the refund if the bubble hits a champ. You shouldn't be getting hit by it that often.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 7, 20182 votes

My point is that she doesn't trade much except when she hits it. And when she does there is no way to retaliate before the ability comes back off cooldown because of the refund.